whats the deal with milk?

[sosurreal09]

lately ive been reading all these articles saying all milk is bad for us...so am i not suppose to drink milk or give DD milk? (we dont drink it right now due to elimination diet but in the future) why is going to hurt us exactly and how come people have been drinking it for a long time with no adverse effect?

[Ruthla]

Are you sure that people have been drinking milk for a long time with no adverse effects? No "obvious effects" isn't the same as "no effects at all. It's also possible that the dairy humans have been consuming for centuries is of a type that's better tolerated than pasturized, homogenized milk, and/or that it's been consumed by individuals who better tolerate it.

According to Dr. D'Adamo, author of the Blood Type Diet, milk is beneficial for those with blood type B, and harmful for all others. Other dairy products are OK for various blood types- and throughout much of human history, people have been drinking fermented dairy without necessarily drinking unprocessed milk.

Other people will answer that raw, unhomogenized, organic milk is healthy, but the "modern" processed stuff is toxic.

[fruitfulmomma]

Everyone has their studies "proving" this or that. Personally I ignore them. It is traditional food in many, many cultures. Anyone who says that only North Americans or western nations drink milk doesn't know what they are talking about. It is true that some others don't drink lots of cows milk, usually goat or sheep, but the definitely use milk in some fashion or another.

I do think raw milk is better for you than pasteurized but it is pretty hard and expensive to come by. See this site for more info... http://www.realmilk.com
If I could afford it I would buy it, but currently I drink whole, pasteurized milk from a local dairy co-operative. We also eat a variety of other milk-based products.

If you are not personally bothered by milk I see no reason to stop drinking it or giving it to your child. We are on a pretty strict diet too and dairy is one of the few foods my child can actually tolerate. I don't know what I'd do if we couldn't have it.

If you haven't already, get copies of Nina Planck's books Real Food and Real Food for Mother and Baby. Both excellent resources on the issue.

[Annie Mac]

What do the articles you are reading say? Possible problems I can come up with off the top of my head include:
1. The antibiotics and bovine growth hormone given to the cows in the U.S. (to my knowledge, Canada and Europe do not do this) having some possible adverse side effects on the consumer.
2. Lactose intolerance. Super common. As the PP said, everyone hasn't been drinking this stuff with no problem. It's pretty much just Europeans (and maybe even just Northern Europeans, I can't quite remember) who historically adapted to dairy in their diet. The rest of us take Lactaid, ha ha.
3. Actual allergy to casein. Less common.
3. Unethical way of raising and treating milk cows.
4. The problems associated with making corn, soya and cows the back bone of a nation's food chain.
5. Saturated fats.

On the other hand, dairy products are clearly a good source of certain nutrients & a pretty affordable source at that. So if you have no problem with the political aspects and the antibiotic/BGH hormone aspect (or if you live outside the U.S.), and it doesn't make you feel ill, drink away! You could also buy organic and/or from a small dairy, etc.

[bandgeek]

I don't think there is any one food that's bad for us in moderation. I DO think the amount of dairy americans consume is bad. Cheese on everything, ice cream is no longer "just" a treat, milk is in tons of packaged products, ect.

I don't know about how healthy it is or not, but I don't think it's what we were meant to consume. Domesticating and breeding mammals to impregnate them over and over, take away their babies, and steal their milk just doesn't seem normal in any way. So "healthy" as in "what humans are supposed to eat"? No probably not. Going to cause severe health problems in moderation? No, probably not. Unless you are one of the many people who doesn't tolerate it, in which case it could cause many problems if you continue to consume it.

[fruitfulmomma]

Milk products are a part of the traditional diet of Mongolians, Tibetans, Greeks, Middle Eastern cultures, and some African tribes. They may not drink cows milk in the same way that we do here in America, but that is not the same as saying that it is not part of their traditional diet at all.

[Sayward]

I don't think milk is a healthful food. For one, it contains ~40 naturally occurring mammalian hormones which are meant to act on a growing baby [cow], *not* on an adult [human]. As a side note I find it funny that so many people are like 'ooh soy! oh noes phytoestrogen!' I'm like, yes, pretend hormones from plants . . . as opposed to real hormones from actual mammals??! Which do you think has more affect on our bodies?

But I'm admittedly biased. My father is an acupuncturist and in traditional chinese medicine, dairy is like the devil. I've been avoiding dairy for health reasons since long long before I went vegan for political reasons.

[Arduinna]

Each group has their own agenda, I agree with PP, dairy products have a long history in many cultures.

[mamadelbosque]

Yeah, I don't buy it either. There are also people out there who think people/humans weren't meant to eat meat. Or soy. Or grains. Or too much fruit. Or just about anything else you can come up with. Theres somebody out there whose screaming "OH. MY. GOD. That is, like, *SO* bad for you!! OMG! You just don't know!! If only you knew what I do about X!!" And personally? I just don't buy it. We eat virtually everything in moderation. People/humans are omnivores and are thus meant to eat a very, very wide variety of foods, and so thats what I/we do.

[JessicaS]

Booo I am allergic to dairy. But I am NA, it is pretty common for NAs to have milk allergies.

Sure it is bad for me but some cultures have been eating dairy for thousands of years.

[Ruthla]

Plenty of cultures "have consumed dairy products for thousands of years" but don't drink cow's milk. Many of them consume cheeses and/or yogurt, but don't use much, if any, unfermented dairy. Many Peoples traditionally used the milk of animals other than cows- sheep milk cheeses, camel milk yogurt, etc.

If you (or your nursling) isn't tolerating cow's milk dairy, you may want to look at alternataive forms of dairy when you're ready to re-introduce it.

[blessedwithboys]

i think the milk of other species is "ok" for some people, but certainly not "healthy" for all.

i think of it this way: human's feed human milk to children. we do not (generally speaking of course) give our milk to other adults.

cows (and goats, sheep, whales, horses, fill in the blank assorted other mammals) do not drink milk past "childhood" either.

and with rare exception, no animal drinks the milk of another species.

so why should humans feel they cant survive without milk past childhood?

i feel if milk must be consumed, it should be raw and grassfed. goat milk is less bad than cow milk, but any type of milk should be used in moderation and fermented whenever possible. i would never say that milk is mandatory for good health, but i can say that for some people it isnt terribly bad.

[JessicaS]

I don't think humans can be compared with other species as far as diet goes.

Other species also do not farm their food or fish for food where they cannot reach without tools. Other species do not cook their food.

Of course we don't need dairy, we don't NEED any one certain food. But drinking/eating dairy isn't an exception to how we stand out

[sosurreal09]

wow i didnt expect so many replies! lol we are both O positive btw. (wicked excting b/c is she ever needs an organ/blood im a match lol)

Anyways so no one actually NEEDS milk past childhood? so if she nurses until shes say 3 y/o is that long enough and she wont need cow's milk or goat's milk for nutrients? i mean i wont derive her of it certainly but i do like the whole moderatio thing vs you baby NEEDS x amount of cow's milk KWIM?
i use coconut milk for cooking right now and dont drink any...except coconut cream in my coffee lol
all she has is BM right now and she is intolerant to dairy as of right now but shes only 9 m/o shes intolerant to like every allergen immaginable right now....

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by abimommy

I don't think humans can be compared with other species as far as diet goes.

Other species also do not farm their food or fish for food where they cannot reach without tools. Other species do not cook their food.

Of course we don't need dairy, we don't NEED any one certain food. But drinking/eating dairy isn't an exception to how we stand out

Many people would argue about how healthy or normal it is to farm or fish as well, or even cooking our food.

Obviously we stand out in that we CAN hunt with tools and cook our food. As well as domesticate animals and plant crops right outside our doorsteps so food is always available with minimal effort. But it's also within our capabilities to pump our food full of hormones and cover our crops with pesticides. Where does it cross the line? Obviously just because we CAN do things other species can't doesn't mean everything we do is fine and healthy.

For me, personally, I draw that line at dumping chemicals on our crops and factory farming our meat. Even as a vegetarian, I won't claim that keeping animals for milk and meat is unhealthy, even if I do think it is not normal and not how things were intended to be. We walk upright and can use tools for a reason...hunting, if we are so inclined. I'm good with plant foods though, no hunting for me.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

Yeah, I don't buy it either. There are also people out there who think people/humans weren't meant to eat meat. Or soy. Or grains. Or too much fruit. Or just about anything else you can come up with. Theres somebody out there whose screaming "OH. MY. GOD. That is, like, *SO* bad for you!! OMG! You just don't know!! If only you knew what I do about X!!" And personally? I just don't buy it. We eat virtually everything in moderation. People/humans are omnivores and are thus meant to eat a very, very wide variety of foods, and so thats what I/we do.

Hahaha that's me. I feel like almost all foods are 'bad' because, well, I've done way too much research... and even the 'safe' foods are covered in pesticides & fungicides & GMO'ed etc. It makes it very hard to feel comfortable eating much of anything. I just stick to the foods I feel are.... least objectionable? So we eat vegan, low soy, loy gluten, low sugar...

I don't feel cow's milk is healthy because cows digest differently than us, they have 4 stomachs & we have one. I (and many others) believe that the huge incidence of lactose intolerance is evidence that we are not meant to consume cow's milk, at least not in large quantities. I do ascribe to "human milk for baby humans, animal milk for baby animals" and although we're completely dairy-free, I don't think things like goat's milk are quite as harmful to humans.

Originally Posted by anielasmommy09

Anyways so no one actually NEEDS milk past childhood? so if she nurses until shes say 3 y/o is that long enough and she wont need cow's milk or goat's milk for nutrients? i mean i wont derive her of it certainly but i do like the whole moderatio thing vs you baby NEEDS x amount of cow's milk KWIM?
i use coconut milk for cooking right now and dont drink any...except coconut cream in my coffee lol
all she has is BM right now and she is intolerant to dairy as of right now but shes only 9 m/o shes intolerant to like every allergen immaginable right now....

No absolutely not! If you don't wean early there is no reason to introduce alternative milks. We do use coconut milk or occasionally homemade nutmilks, in cooking etc., but more for taste than to satisfy a nutritional need. However, I do think that many kids raised on the SAD are going to be lacking nutrients so in those cases drinking some kind of milk is probably preferable as they just aren't getting the nutrition they need from their food. If you follow a more healthy & varied diet, lots of veggies & healthy fats etc., you won't need to 'supplement' with milks.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma

Everyone has their studies "proving" this or that. Personally I ignore them. It is traditional food in many, many cultures. Anyone who says that only North Americans or western nations drink milk doesn't know what they are talking about. It is true that some others don't drink lots of cows milk, usually goat or sheep, but the definitely use milk in some fashion or another.

I do think raw milk is better for you than pasteurized but it is pretty hard and expensive to come by. See this site for more info... http://www.realmilk.com
If I could afford it I would buy it, but currently I drink whole, pasteurized milk from a local dairy co-operative. We also eat a variety of other milk-based products.

If you are not personally bothered by milk I see no reason to stop drinking it or giving it to your child. We are on a pretty strict diet too and dairy is one of the few foods my child can actually tolerate. I don't know what I'd do if we couldn't have it.

If you haven't already, get copies of Nina Planck's books Real Food and Real Food for Mother and Baby. Both excellent resources on the issue.

[Magelet]

I think cow's milk (and other milk) can be very healthy If you digest it well. And really grass-fed, un-homogenized milk, either raw or low temp pasturized (for drinking, I think it really should be raw, or cultured less ideally, but I realize that there is no way traditional people's didn't also cook with milk, and I think low temp pasturized milk is not the devil). definitely grass-fed un-homogenized.

Another point that I don't see mentioned here (though I have to go soon so I just skimmed) was A2 vs A1 beta-casein milk. It's the genes of the cow, which type of milk they make (so it can be A2/A2, A1/A2, or A1/A1). IIRC, holsteins (which make a lot of the milk in the us) are almost always A1/A1. Jerseys and guernseys are sometimes but not always A2/A1 or A2/A2. (US farmers have to send the DNA of the cow to the netherlands to have it tested, I beleive). I think in europe more milk is A2/A2, but most in the us is A1/A1. I actually don't know much about why it's supposed to be better, though I know it is, but since my milk farmer only has an A2/A2 herd, I haven't much looked into it anyways. It is supposed to be a big difference in how good for you the milk is.

[sosurreal09]

there is so much to take in! we eat only homemade organic food we limit sugar and we dont eat soy. NO processed foods or preservatives or take-out!
all we really eat period is rice beans potatoes quinoa fruits vegs and turkey chicken and pork.
im leaning more towards not even giving her milk but idk if my EX will be on board...

we both grew up in the you drink your milk with dinner type family...my father was actually a milkman for Cresent Ridge dairy for 25years...and his father was a milkman for hood for over 50 years...so milk was big in my family...

so crunchy mommy you have me freaked out! when i buy organic it still has pesticides?!? why am paying so much for it then lol im pretty new at the whole organic thing im not going to lie... im only 22 and well i trusted this country until i found out what they did to our meat then i started reading about organic ect ect. i thought i was doing pretty well...

also for some reason i had no idea they kept impregnating cows so they will produce milk those poor animals! (im very ignorant lol)

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by anielasmommy09

so crunchy mommy you have me freaked out! when i buy organic it still has pesticides?!? why am paying so much for it then lol

Well if you are getting USA-made organic it is likely to be mostly organic & pesticide-free, though some of the USDA certification rules are a little... off (loopholes, plus the product only has to be 95% organic I believe). There are also some reports of "organic"-labeled food (i.e. frozen veggies from China) that aren't organic (USDA doesn't even certify China). There is also the issue of cross-contamination with fresh, unwrapped food -- like if all the apples, organic & non-organic, arrive in the same truck or are stocked near each other, residues from the non-organic apples can get on the 'organic' ones. Also, a small percentage (around 5-10%) of organic crops can contain GMO crops mixed in (think seeds from the non-organic field down the street straying into your organic corn field). Then your organic milk from corn-fed cows can contain small amounts of genetically-modified material.

I have to admit that all the stuff I've read makes me want to move to a huge plot of land so I can grow all my own food & control everything that goes into it... too bad I don't really love farming....