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Some People Just Don't Get It, or, A Rant About Backyard Breeders - Page 2

post #21 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthRootsStarSoul View Post
I have a vet tech degree and lots of experience with dogs, and I'm obviously a lifetime animal lover. After having to put my old dog to sleep last fall, I decided to buy a puppy this spring. I have two young boys, and I just can't take the risk of adopting a shelter dog. You don't know their history, you don't know their behavior problems, you don't know if they are going to bite. At least 90% of dogs in shelters are there because their owners don't want to, or don't know how to deal with the dog's behavior problems. I want to raise a puppy and do it right. It's too risky (for me with kids) to try to rehab a dog that someone else already messed up by not socializing or training it as a puppy.

And the crazy thing is, when I decided to start looking for a puppy, I couldn't find any! I wanted a pit bull type dog, but open to considering what puppies were available around here. I wanted a medium to large dog, and athletic to go running with me and maybe compete in agility. Eventually I found a litter of pit bull puppies on craigslist and was lucky enough to get first pick (of 8 pups).

It was a 'backyard breeder' sort of. They owned both parents and one other dog. The dogs were healthy and friendly, had natural ears and didn't have any scars. I picked a smallish mellow female and paid $450. No papers, but I don't care, she's getting spayed next month.

I've been socializing her like crazy from the start. I take her everywhere with me, and she meets tons of new people and other dogs all the time. She loves kids and seeks out kids in any group of people to play with. She's a little shy, but I've been working with her so much, she's improving dramatically. Yesterday I took her into the city to walk around in crowds and she was fine. She just gets scared when strangers boisterously reach for her, then she hides behind me. But if someone just stands there or squats down then she greets them. Also has been doing pretty good getting used to firecrackers (I think she's used to noise from living with kids LOL). We go to dog training classes, the dog park, and lots of walks around town. I have VPI pet insurance on her, she's UTD on shots and heartgard, and will be microchipped when she's spayed.

So anyways, my pup from a backyard breeder is getting top-notch care and training, and is shaping up to be a great family pet. Might even do the canine good citizen test with her too. And she doesn't seem to have any underlying health problems. This is a good situation for all of us.
Another tech here (with 14yrs experience) I agree. Too many older shelter dogs are there for a reason....such as behavioural. Puppies are another thing.

$450 is a good price I don't know of many breeders here that charge less than $600.

My old farm dog (shep/collieX) was a pup from a backyard breeder on a farm....she lived to 14 and likely would have lived longer but was hit by a car.
post #22 of 69
Do you mind if I ask what breed? I do not mean to be rude... I am just truly curious because I have never heard of puppies going for that little and I have been doing this for so long! Of course I believe you and it could be that, if you are in a breed that is more popular, that the puppies could be more plentiful and going for that... but even popular breeds like miniature schnauzers go for $1200 at least for a pet. So I am just truly curious. Could be a location thing, too.

Anyway, I think that's great. Count me in as someone who learned something new today.
post #23 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom0810 View Post
Do you mind if I ask what breed? I do not mean to be rude... I am just truly curious because I have never heard of puppies going for that little and I have been doing this for so long! Of course I believe you and it could be that, if you are in a breed that is more popular, that the puppies could be more plentiful and going for that... but even popular breeds like miniature schnauzers go for $1200 at least for a pet. So I am just truly curious. Could be a location thing, too.

Anyway, I think that's great. Count me in as someone who learned something new today.
Shelties! Fairly popular breed (last I knew, it was 16 on the AKC breed list). We have many repeat customer's also! We have anywhere from 2 to 8 in a litter (last litter was 6, and we kept 2). I don't mind you asking!

I've been in it for almost 15 years (got my first Sheltie when I was 12, and got his Can. champ on him a few years later. I got into them through my grandma, who had them for at least 10 years before I started showing her dogs in Jr handling. She also showed & bred.

In my area, the pets (registered Shelties, that is) run anywhere from $350 to $600, so $450 is a good middle price, for a pet puppy.
post #24 of 69
Wow. That's really inexpensive. I'm amazed. I do know a Sheltie breeder who lives right down the road from me (I have to look up her kennel name) but her puppies are a LOT more than that for pets. Maybe it's an area thing. I am in the Midwest.
post #25 of 69
I have gotten a rescue dog for $100,and a mini pin mix pup for $50 from a friend.No issues with either.I have taken in cats AND kittens.Some have issues and some don't.I am always sad for the older animals especially the cats. Some shelters around us charge $17 a dog.Others charge $130. The prices on craigs also varies from free to hundreds. You just never know what the dog will be like till it is in your home. I would not get a dog from a hoarder breeder,but some of those pet store pups come from those types.

I would never pay more than $100 for a dog.Probably less these days since so many people offer pets for free now.There will always be people willing to shell out the cash for a pure breed dog.Ds school mate got a rottie and they paid $850 for it.Cute,but lol dh would be hopping mad if I spent even half that on a pet.

I am suprised the mom did not know about milk replacer for pups.
post #26 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post
And let me guess.. they weren't fixed!!! NO good breeder ever rehomes pets without fixing them first. Not for money issues for but ethics. Pets are not usually show or breeding quality for some, perhaps minor reason and therefore aren't breeders and shouldn't be allowed.
Not to get too off topic... but are you suggested that puppies should be spayed or neutered before being adopted out? At the age of what... 10 weeks? 12 weeks?

Depending on the breed and what the owner plans to do with the dog (agility for example), there are very good reasons to wait much longer than that. For agility dogs, it is generally recommended to wait until at least 18 months to spay or neuter. For large breeds, there are benefits to waiting longer than the standard 6 months before spaying/neutering as well.

Pets are sold on a spay/neuter contract after a careful screening process.
post #27 of 69
Early spaying and neutering is now known to be really harmful in many ways. In fact, I know a lot of dogs that have been totally ruined by spaying at any age. I won't do it and I don't want my puppy buyers to do it.
post #28 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom0810 View Post
Wow. That's really inexpensive. I'm amazed. I do know a Sheltie breeder who lives right down the road from me (I have to look up her kennel name) but her puppies are a LOT more than that for pets. Maybe it's an area thing. I am in the Midwest.
I'm in Michigan, where it's a really popular breed.
post #29 of 69
Oh, they're popular here, too (Illinois).
post #30 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
I get why you are upset but I think your approach is offending your friend. the dog is in her care now. what can you do to get her to spay it and help her feed it? I think there is puppy formula you can suggest to her. otherwise she needs to take the pup to a good vet ASAP because it could die.
This. I live in a state renowned for crappy puppy mills. I'm not sure the texting back and forth is really helping change anyone's mind. I'd be pretty pissed if my dog-lover friend whom I was looking to as a mentor texted me: I'm sorry you dealt with a crappy breeder. If I hadn't brought up the idea that it was a crappy breeder, I wouldn't be ready to hear that from someone else. Can you think of a different approach? It sounds like you do want to be there for your friend and you are willing to step in if the dog isn't all she thinks it will be. You are a wonderful person for that. I just don't want to see you lose a friend because you are both seeing this issue from different stanpoints.
post #31 of 69
Pet puppies from a good breeder cost much less than show quality or breeding quality animals. My Cardigan Welsh Corgi pup was $400 or $500, nine years ago, so I expect the price might have gone up somewhat (I haven't been in the market for another puppy, so I haven't checked).

The initial price of a pet is a drop in the bucket compared to supplies, food, and vet bills. If an extra $400 for a puppy from a reputable breeder is out of the question, I would worry about a family's ability to pay for the care of the dog.

I flew to Montana to get my puppy, because I went to a breeder who was highly recommended by several people, and I didn't want to buy a pup without meeting the breeder face to face, and seeing her facilities. So in addition to the price of the pup, he cost me two nights in a motel and 3 days of a rental car (I used a frequent flier ticket, so the airfare was free). I got my heart set on a Cardi, and there just aren't any breeders in my area. He was worth every penny!
post #32 of 69
I usually get pound puppies. I would NEVER buy from a breeder because there are plenty of good dogs elsewhere IMHO. We got our current pup (pitty mix) from a friend but had to drive to Michigan to get her! She's a really good dog. To each his/her own but I also don't want a specific breed either. Mutts all the way!
post #33 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead View Post
The initial price of a pet is a drop in the bucket compared to supplies, food, and vet bills. If an extra $400 for a puppy from a reputable breeder is out of the question, I would worry about a family's ability to pay for the care of the dog.
That's a very good point. That's about the cost of an uncomplicated visit to the emergency vet around here!
post #34 of 69
I'm all for mutts, though if I wanted a purebred dog, I'd go with a breed rescue group. And there are puppies at shelters, mixed breed rescue groups, and purebred rescue groups! So it's not necessary to buy a pet puppy unless rescue is out of the question.

Puppies are a lot of work IMO, so when we adopt, I look for young adult dogs (1-4 years old) who have been fostered in a home with children. I think they can make ideal family dogs. The foster families usually housetrain them and work on basic obedience. With a good rescue group (like the one I fostered for), potential adopters are told about behavior issues up front.
post #35 of 69
My mom has had her toy poodle since he was a puppy (from a breeder). We lived with her for years, so this dog was used to being around kids and for years we had no problems with him. All of the sudden about 2 years ago he started becoming food aggressive. His tolerance level for people touching him plummeted. He bit my mom, my husband, and my daughter. My mom thought she was going to have to put him to sleep, he was that mean! After many visits with the vet and some research we found out he has Cushing's disease. He's been on medicine for over a year now, and he's back to his happy, go-lucky little self!

I tell this story because there are several people above that mentioned they didn't trust shelter dogs around their kids...and I agree. I probably wouldn't get a dog from the pound right now with my kids being small. But shelters are NOT rescues! Rescues test each dogs' personality and place them in homes appropriate for them. Even a dog raised by you from a puppy could turn, like my mom's dog. Please look in rescues before resorting to a breeder.

I got my standard poodle from a breed specific rescue, and he is totally devoted to my kids. He was 8 months when we got him. We paid $500 for him which is a lot for a rescue, but I knew that the money would be used to help other less desirable dogs get vet care and basic necessities. The woman that ran the rescue was wonderful. She brought us straight to dogs she thought would fit with our family, and if we saw one that was "cute" but that wasn't appropriate for one reason or another she told us straight away. It was and continues to be a great experience!
post #36 of 69
We looked at shelters all over (Ontario and in the US) for a small, nonshedding dog that would be okay with kids. For three years. There was none out there. I looked regularly. We ended up buying from a breeder instead. Kept looking. It was another two years before we found a shelter dog that met our criteria, in PA.
post #37 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishmommy View Post
We looked at shelters all over (Ontario and in the US) for a small, nonshedding dog that would be okay with kids. For three years. There was none out there. I looked regularly. We ended up buying from a breeder instead. Kept looking. It was another two years before we found a shelter dog that met our criteria, in PA.
People say that all the time, but I have no problem finding breed specific rescues all over the country. Google and Pet Finder.com works wonders. I know there are several poodle rescues in the state of Texas alone that are filled with dogs that would meet your criteria of nonshedding and ok with kids. It seems there are poodles in the pound here all the time. Where were you looking?

The truth is, it's easier to just go to a breeder and pick up a puppy. Not in the long run, but somehow people get it into their heads that pristine puppies from a breeder are less of a gamble. Plus since puppies haven't really developed much of a personality, the choice really comes down to looks with a tiny bit of "is it quiet or rambunctious" mixed in. It also seems as if people think that if they get a puppy from a breeder that they'll somehow be immune to bad behavior and health issues or that they know exactly what they are getting.

I really try not to judge when it comes to this issue, mostly because so many people are completely ignorant when it comes to how their choice indirectly affects other animals. But when someone KNOWS that by supporting a breeder they are encouraging the birth of MORE animals that more than likely will not have a good home and happy life, and still go with that emotional "but I wanna" feeling, it really chaps my butt!
post #38 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SophieAnn View Post
Not to get too off topic... but are you suggested that puppies should be spayed or neutered before being adopted out? At the age of what... 10 weeks? 12 weeks?

Depending on the breed and what the owner plans to do with the dog (agility for example), there are very good reasons to wait much longer than that. For agility dogs, it is generally recommended to wait until at least 18 months to spay or neuter. For large breeds, there are benefits to waiting longer than the standard 6 months before spaying/neutering as well.

Pets are sold on a spay/neuter contract after a careful screening process.
Right, a breeder wouldn't necessarily fix a pup before rehoming. That's about the only issue I don't have with the lady who owned the mother dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
This. I live in a state renowned for crappy puppy mills. I'm not sure the texting back and forth is really helping change anyone's mind. I'd be pretty pissed if my dog-lover friend whom I was looking to as a mentor texted me: I'm sorry you dealt with a crappy breeder. If I hadn't brought up the idea that it was a crappy breeder, I wouldn't be ready to hear that from someone else. Can you think of a different approach? It sounds like you do want to be there for your friend and you are willing to step in if the dog isn't all she thinks it will be. You are a wonderful person for that. I just don't want to see you lose a friend because you are both seeing this issue from different stanpoints.
We had this conversation 2 years ago when I was searching for my dog. She already knew how I felt about BYBs. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it just really pissed me off to hear about a barely 5 week old puppy going through all that.

And for whoever mentioned minimum ages for adoption: yes, in my state there is one, I believe it's about 7 or 8 weeks, not sure, but I know that 4 weeks and a few days is NOT legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishmommy View Post
We looked at shelters all over (Ontario and in the US) for a small, nonshedding dog that would be okay with kids. For three years. There was none out there. I looked regularly. We ended up buying from a breeder instead. Kept looking. It was another two years before we found a shelter dog that met our criteria, in PA.
I've been in a similar situation. When I first began looking and applying with rescue groups, I was rejected because of my perceived poverty. Yes, the 2 local poodle groups actually told me a single mother working part time couldn't possible afford regular grooming. I was also told that it was not possible for a non-professional to groom their own dog. Well, I finally happened across a young adult toy poodle on CL and paid $100 for her. It was not a breeder, just an overwhelmed first time mother who couldn't wait out the toddler years for her daughter to stop playing rough with the dog. Two years later and I groom my own dog, and beautifully at that. And when I am too tired or busy and she gets shaggy, I take her to a groomer and have no trouble paying for it. I make sure to budget it. And now that I want a second dog, I will just bypass the rescues and keep an eye on the shelter that doesn't have an intrusive application process, and CL. I'm in no rush. If a year goes by and I still haven't found the right one, I will re-contact the uber-awesome raw-feeding champion breeder in CA and make plans to fly out and get the dog myself.
post #39 of 69
awful and frustrating!!! Stupidity runs amok.
post #40 of 69
I don't think the tone of the OP was harsh at all, backyard breeding is a really bad thing, and results in otherwise adoptable shelter dogs going without homes in favor of a cute puppy of questionable origin.

My frenchie is the result of bad breeding. He has sleep apnea, he can barely breathe, the stupid breeders put PLASTIC RODS in his ears to make them stand up like the "cute" frenchies. Seriously.

Our Mastiff is likely a perfect dog to "Breed" with, and we had people shake their heads when we had her spayed. Why in the world would we breed? We don't know thing one about it, and I'm not interested in dealing with a litter of pups, and ethical breeders rarely make much profit after all is said and done.

Our rottie, the same thing. She's beautiful and people again, shook their head when she was spayed because "DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY YOU COULD GET FOR THOSE PUPPIES!!???" which really disgusted me.

I think breeders should have to get a license prior to breeding their dogs, and should be fined to high heaven when they have a litter without following proper procedures. There are so many dogs that need homes now, it's heartbreaking how many GREAT older dogs (read, not cute puppies) are passed up in favor of younger cuter dogs, who in turn are abandoned or given away or sold when they aren't cute anymore. It's a vicious cycle and I can't support it at all.

We got all 3 of our dogs from other families, once the novelty of the cute puppy had worn off. As a bonus, they were all housebroken and through the chewy bitey puppy phase. WIN. Our dogs are awesome and a joy to have in the family, I think we got the better end of the deal.
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