What am I doing wrong!? (Is BabyWise right!?)

[Hokulele]

Last week I was at lunch with a few friends - all moms who I respect and admire, from families we are close to. It came out in conversation that they all used the Baby Wise book - and swear it is the best thing ever. None of these people are who I would think would use this book! I kind of expected all of them to be cosleepers/APers.

They all were boasting about their kids and how well they sleep now. Two year olds who go down for the night at 7:30pm and don't wake until 8am. Most of the time when parents tell me this, I think they are making it up / stretching the truth. But these are all moms who are honest with each other about all of the various parenting issues they have. They all looked at me as though I had two heads when I told them our situation.

Am I crazy? Am I doing something wrong?

DD1 is 5, has a very hard time going to sleep, finally falls asleep at about 9:30pm or 10pm each night but stays in her own bed, (a recent development).

DD2 is 2, must be nursed/rocked to sleep. Finally falls asleep at 9:30ish, still nurses allll night long. She is in our bed cosleeping and rarely sleeps in her crib. She wakes to nurse 4-7 times a night.

I am *exhausted* and haven't slept more than two hours un-interrupted in five years. DH does NOT night-time parent at all so nights are all me. Last night was particularly bad and I spent half the night wishing for sleep wondering if I should have tossed AP out the window and followed BabyWise advice.

[porcelina]

First, you have to think about how their children are beyond sleeping. Do they know their parents are there for them, whether it's day or night time? Are they attached to their parents like your children are to you? There are so many things you are probably getting back from your children that these women are not, and you have to keep that in mind. Your children as teenagers may be more likely to talk through problems with you rather than turning to drugs, who knows. Just because they sleep "well" doesn't mean that they will turn out better. So no, babywise is not "right."

Second, if things need to change for you to recover from exhaustion, then take action to change it. My DS (2.5) was waking every 2 hours until just a few months ago. It was only then that I became determined to nightwean (in my case, due to pregnancy). We had tried on a number of occasions in the past, and had failed (he would stay awake for 2-3 hours at a time, at each waking, and only sleep 1 hour stretches when no nursing available). We finally started again, and this time were successful. He now goes from bedtime (8 or 8.15) until 4.30 to 5.30 with no nursing. He still wakes between 4.30 and 5.30. For a while, I cut him off from nursing then, but gave him milk. Then, I regressed and now I nurse him again (I thought I might get more sleep). However, he's doing much better than he used to, and I think 1 wake up per night is much more doable than the 5 or so times we had before!

Remember, if you are going to work on changing things, the key is consistency.

Good luck!

[ThisLove]

What porcelina said!

All babes are different. My 2.5 year old is a champion sleeper. The first night he STTN was in the hospital. By 3 months, he was consistent. My almost 8 month old? He wakes up 3ish times a night still. Then again, the circumstances are very different: I stopped nursing my toddler at 3 months because of horrible advice leading to the death of my supply; I'm still nursing my baby. He SCREAMS if DH tries to do anything with him, so all of the parenting is on me. I'm just now trying to change our sleep habits with him because my body HURTS. He's a big, big baby (27+ pounds) and I just can't rock him to sleep all the time. Up until a month ago, it was taking me an hour+ of rocking & nursing to get him to go down for naps, 2+ hours for bedtime. We came back from vacation and I decided that things were going to change. And you know what? They have! Being proactive is key for changing sleep.

Instead of trying to nurse him completely down and rocking him into a deep sleep, I nurse him, tell him it's time for sleep, and put him down on his belly in his crib. I stand back, towards his legs, and pat his bottom until he's still and quiet. He may not be completely asleep when I leave the room, but he rarely fusses (and if he does, I go back and keep patting). He needs the reassurance from me that he can sleep on his own. He actually sleeps BETTER in his own space, without me close. As soon as I walk into the room to go to bed, he's awake (his crib is next to our bed). He'll probably sleep great once we get our bedrooms moved around, with him sleeping in the same room as his brother.

Babywise is scary and weird and completely not natural. A cousin of mine used it and it led to killing her supply, her kids have a really hard time with trusting/being comfortable with adults, and have struggled with low weight gain. When I was pregnant with my first, she fed me all sorts of horror stories about how she listened to her babies scream for hours (whether to go to sleep or between the scheduled feedings), but "Babywise CHANGED MY LIFE!!!!". She was amazed that my toddler naturally put himself on a 'schedule' and would sleep so well. So are a lot of my friends. I've always thought that a laid-back Momma = laid-back children and in MY instance, it's the truth.

Hang in there!

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by porcelina

First, you have to think about how their children are beyond sleeping. Do they know their parents are there for them, whether it's day or night time? Are they attached to their parents like your children are to you? There are so many things you are probably getting back from your children that these women are not, and you have to keep that in mind. Your children as teenagers may be more likely to talk through problems with you rather than turning to drugs, who knows. Just because they sleep "well" doesn't mean that they will turn out better. So no, babywise is not "right."

Second, if things need to change for you to recover from exhaustion, then take action to change it. My DS (2.5) was waking every 2 hours until just a few months ago. It was only then that I became determined to nightwean (in my case, due to pregnancy). We had tried on a number of occasions in the past, and had failed (he would stay awake for 2-3 hours at a time, at each waking, and only sleep 1 hour stretches when no nursing available). We finally started again, and this time were successful. He now goes from bedtime (8 or 8.15) until 4.30 to 5.30 with no nursing. He still wakes between 4.30 and 5.30. For a while, I cut him off from nursing then, but gave him milk. Then, I regressed and now I nurse him again (I thought I might get more sleep). However, he's doing much better than he used to, and I think 1 wake up per night is much more doable than the 5 or so times we had before!

Remember, if you are going to work on changing things, the key is consistency.

Good luck!

a big

I know lots of people who do babywise. Yeah, their kids sleep well, but you can tell that they are not secure, in themselves or their parents.

My DS has always been a bad sleeper. We nightweaned about 3-4 months ago and he went from sleeping 1-2 hour stretches to sleeping 8 hour stretches. There were no tears, and he is still very attached and secure. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, you can set boundaries for your children that they can understand, without CIO and Babywise.

[KempsMama]

Every kid is different.

We never used babywise or any other CIO method-DS1 slept 10 to 5 at six weeks, now at age 2 he sleeps 7 to 7, unless he's sick or a storm wakes him.

I wouldn't assume they are stretching the truth, but I wouldn't let their stories persuade you to CIO either.

[staceychev]

Originally Posted by KempsMama

Every kid is different.

We never used babywise or any other CIO method-DS1 slept 10 to 5 at six weeks, now at age 2 he sleeps 7 to 7, unless he's sick or a storm wakes him.

I wouldn't assume they are stretching the truth, but I wouldn't let their stories persuade you to CIO either.

DD2 started sleeping in 6-7 hour stretches at 2 or 3 weeks of age. I didn't do anything different. It's just the kid. The flip side is that there are kids who continue to have sleeping problems *despite* Babywise.

Honestly, I haven't read it. My cousin used it with her daughter, and J is an adorable, sweet, loving little 1 year old. Do I think it's an effed up system? Sure. Do I think it ruins all kids forever? Um, no, I don't. But this is what I know: you begin building a relationship with your child immediately, even in utero if you are a bio-mom. I think that people think babies are stupid. They're not. They are heavily tuned in to signals from the important people around them. From what I know of Babywise, it's not the method for building a relationship that I would choose.

[Bokonon]

BabyWise (and Ferber, and Weissbluth) is right if all you care about is sleep. But if you care about your child's emotional well-being and security, then those books aren't right.

BabyWise is very disrespectful of children, and asserts that parents need to teach their children that the parents' needs are more important than their own.

I know that sleep is a big deal when you're not getting it - my 14mo still isn't STTN most nights - but it's not the biggest deal, kwim?

[Marsupialmom]

All children are different. I have one child that sleeps that well, my third.

My oldest didn't sleep well until a accepted he just didn't need as much sleep as other kids. Once I respected that things got much better.

My middle child was ok, as long as dad put her to sleep.

I might be a little flamed but sometimes we can learn from people we disagree with. Some kids do best with routine, some need more structure than others. Some kids are happier with this is how we do it and you have no option. Dr. Sears mentions this in one of his books, I think it is called by the clock.

I know one mother that learned from Weissbluth the problem with her children that she was missing their sleepy cues her child needed earlier bedtime and to be less quick to pick up her child. She didn't cry it out but her child was a noisy sleeper. Some of those noises was not a sign being awake or needing to nurse.

I think Dr. Sears said it best, if it isn't working for everyone then it needs to change. It is ok, and honest, to say DC I am to tired. It is ok to night wean a little -- my middle child nursed until she was 4. Because of me being TOO tired and it effecting my parenting (everyone) she new that mommies "nana's" had to take naps too.

[ssh]

Babies and toddlers who have CIO often don't wake their parents when they wake at night because they have given up hope that someone will come. So their toddlers may be waking without the parents noticing.

On a personal note my 4.5 year old co-slept until she decided to move to her own bed right after turning 4. She nursed on demand until she weaned her self a couple of months before that. Right before weaning herself she was still nursing to sleep. Until all her teeth came in at 2.5 she was nursing several times a night. Now she goes to bed in her own bed, sleeps 10 hours, and after being up 14 hours goes back to sleep with no issues. If she goes to bed late, waking her up earlier than 10 hours is the only way to get her back on schedule. She isn't sleepy unless she's been up 13 to 14 hours.

How many total hours is your 5 year old sleeping? Normal is 10 to 12 hours each day. My DD would have a very hard time trying to go to sleep if it was before she had been up 13 to 14 hours.

Since CIO causes neurological damage that makes a person more susceptible to stress related diseases and conditions in adulthood you would need to compare their children to your children as adults to really get the whole picture. Who has insomnia, depression, hypertension, drug or alcohol dependence. Who's on medication for digestive disorders, heart disease or panic attacks. Here's just one article on the effects of chronic exposure to stress hormones http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html . Here's the Harvard study http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html . That says "Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so they're overly sensitive to future trauma." There's lots of research showing the same result.

[TerraNoelle]

Originally Posted by Bokonon

BabyWise (and Ferber, and Weissbluth) is right if all you care about is sleep. But if you care about your child's emotional well-being and security, then those books aren't right.

BabyWise is very disrespectful of children, and asserts that parents need to teach their children that the parents' needs are more important than their own.

I know that sleep is a big deal when you're not getting it - my 14mo still isn't STTN most nights - but it's not the biggest deal, kwim?

Check out http://www.ezzo.info/
There is so information there as to the downfalls of the Babywise way. Mr. Ezzo is first and foremost without any true credentials and theologically off base about historical parenting. Funny how they don't promote "extended" nursing yet it was common place for Hebrew women and early Christians to nurse until the age of 3 or so! [My undergrad work is in theology by the way ]

Anyway, it is a very destructive, if not dangerous way to parent.

Also, I always say that it confuses me so much when people expect things out of their children that they don't even expect out of themselves [hence STTN]. Even adults don't do that for the most part. And if a child wants comforted why is that so bad? Why is that taken away? I'm pretty sure that an adult would not like it if someone suddenly said "oh you can't cuddle with your spouse/DP/DH/DW anymore....you can't have your favorite [insert thing] at night anymore. You must just lay there and fall asleep, I don't care how scared/hurt/lonely you are. Yet every.single.day parents do this to their own children. Just leaves me scratching my head

I hate the whole Ezzo train of thought that says your baby is basically only an addition to the family. They make it seem as if they are less than equal. I hate that they don't promote the fact that parents need to earn their children's respect and trust as well. It's not a one way street.

Okay, I'll stop rambling!

Originally Posted by ssh

Since CIO causes neurological damage that makes a person more susceptible to stress related diseases and conditions in adulthood you would need to compare their children to your children as adults to really get the whole picture. Who has insomnia, depression, hypertension, drug or alcohol dependence. Who's on medication for digestive disorders, heart disease or panic attacks. Here's just one article on the effects of chronic exposure to stress hormones http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html . Here's the Harvard study http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html . That says "Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so they're overly sensitive to future trauma." There's lots of research showing the same result.

Great links! 2 of my favs!

[Tway]

The first time I heard of Babywise was from a photographer we took DD to when she was just 10 days old. I guess he saw the bags under my eyes and told me to buy the book--his clients swore by it. I thought I'd been handed a lifesaver and went home to read up on it... and that's when I discovered all the CIOing and the "babies must be made to fit into your life" stuff.

Needless to say, 9 months later and I still have bags under my eyes.

I keep hearing about mothers whose babies sleep the night away--with and without resorting to CIO. I get frustrated sometimes that I still get up 3-4 or more times a night, still struggle to get her to bed, still race to do the laundry during one of her two 45-minute naps. But my mindset is starting to change slowly--and we're starting to see that it's just the way DD is, and her sleep patterns are part of her personality, and her personality is simply wonderful.

All to say, hang in there and do what you think is best. The biggest struggle that came with motherhood, for me, was the absolutely confounding amount of conflicting advice from every exert imaginable. So just listen to the best expert there is--your baby. Become an expert in what your unique baby needs and what keeps your family happy, and your wonderful job is done!

And may I say how happy I am to have found this forum. I'm finding some sanity and serenity thanks to all of you. xx

[hrsmom]

You're not doing anything wrong! In our big sleep-deprived days, I looked into all kinds of ways to get my kiddo to sleep, so I know the temptation to consider ANYTHING!!!! I've read some of the references listed in this thread, and I sure wouldn't try this method. Big hugs, mama!!!!!!!!

[aihley]

Babywise is never right, IMHO. It's full of logical fallacies that merely perpetuate the myth of it as an acceptable way to treat an infant. I was given it from a friend and was excited to start reading about how to get my son to sleep through the night so early! That is, until I read the book. Basically it says if it's not working, you're obviously doing something wrong. If it works, you did it right! There's no way to argue with someone who uses that kind of logic. There's no room for individual experience and differences. I've got a lot of friends who Babywise their kids & it's heart-wrenching to hear them wail for 45 minutes straight instead of napping.

Babywise is a conglomeration of parenting rules, some worse than others. NEVER follow the feeding advice given - there's NOTHING backing it up and it's harmful to babies. The sleep-training, well, it can be an effective way to make your child STTN (if they have the temperament that can be molded with the proffered techniques) IF your only goal is for them to STTN. But for me, it was a question of respect for & proper treatment of the child. There may or may not be a provable link to drug use or bad behavior or detachment, but I'm deeply convicted that it's methods are not loving or respectful of a child as a fully human person. So while you may come across children and adults who were raised on the CIO system or were Babywised and be unable to point out the specific harm that caused, I'm still not comfortable treating children that way. You have to choose whether the result or the method is more important to you.

It's your decision, mama. Research more about Babywise and Ezzo and evaluate how he asks you to treat your children. If it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it.

[poppan]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Last night was particularly bad and I spent half the night wishing for sleep wondering if I should have tossed AP out the window and followed BabyWise advice.

I really hear your frustration. I was so there. And I want to say, you can get your child sleeping better/"through" the night without resorting to CIO and BabyWise. There are gentler methods. There are more than two choices--it's not no sleep for mama or CIO, there is so much in between. I nightweaned my twins at 22 months because I was sick and tired of not getting any sleep. I still coslept with them (and still do now). I didn't do CIO--they cried, but I was there with them comforting them, and I think that's quite different from crying alone. They still wake several times in the night--all people do, adults too--but are able to put themselves back to sleep without nursing. It has made a huge difference in my life. I truly felt like a new person once I nightweaned and they were sleeping "through". I don't feel like they are less attached because it was mama-led weaning and not child-led.

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

I think Dr. Sears said it best, if it isn't working for everyone then it needs to change.

I totally agree.

[ErinYay]

I disagree a little with the idea that "it works if all you care about is sleep."

There's no way to know if CIO babies are actually getting more sleep, or if they've just given up on trying to get attention when the do wake up. We also have to remember that parents who CIO are often feeling guilty or defensive of their choice, at least at first, so of course will defend it and rationalize it by telling others it works, even if it really doesn't.

[MayasMama88]

I was determined to make co-sleeping a part of my (and my DH's) bond with our daughter. It was a challenge because she would wake frequently, nurse constantly, and wouldn't go to bed until anytime between 9-11pm! But I kept trying different things and then my dear friend directed me to this book: "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. I urge to to buy that book. Mrs. Pantley has a very sincere, well thought out, and SUCCESSFUL approach to getting your LO into a regular sleep routine. She discusses options for co-sleepers, crib sleepers, bottle fed babies, breast fed babies, you name it, it's in there. I love that book and I utilised many of her ideas and now our 9 month old goes to sleep between 7-8pm, and only wakes two or three times to nurse. It's fantastic, and I don't feel exhausted anymore! You can read about it here: http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php Hope this helps!

[aihley]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

I disagree a little with the idea that "it works if all you care about is sleep."

There's no way to know if CIO babies are actually getting more sleep, or if they've just given up on trying to get attention when the do wake up. We also have to remember that parents who CIO are often feeling guilty or defensive of their choice, at least at first, so of course will defend it and rationalize it by telling others it works, even if it really doesn't.

I'm sure some kids mostly sleep. Of course they wake during the night - no one STTN straight unless drugged. But you're right - many of these kids are waking and not even bothering to call for mom b/c they know she won't come. It's called learned helplessness. Seligman and Maier conducted several famous psychology experiments in which a dog was given an electric shock in a cage with no way to escape the shock or control when it stopped (it stopped at random intervals). The dog eventually gave up, laid down and let the electricity course through its body - even when an easy escape was eventually provided.

Some parents even end up inadvertently tuning out their baby's nightly cries. I know I've tuned my husband's alarm out - only mine wakes me up now. It's more than possible.

ETA: I suppose it would be more accurate to say Babywise & other CIO methods will work to stop your child from interrupting your sleep if your child is of the correct temperament.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

I disagree a little with the idea that "it works if all you care about is sleep."

There's no way to know if CIO babies are actually getting more sleep, or if they've just given up on trying to get attention when the do wake up. We also have to remember that parents who CIO are often feeling guilty or defensive of their choice, at least at first, so of course will defend it and rationalize it by telling others it works, even if it really doesn't.

I would say, "It works if all the parent cares about is their own sleep." I'm certainly not going to claim that Babywise-ed kids are sleeping well. I firmly believe they're not. But the parents most of the time seem to be!

[Aliyahsmommy]

I want to add that I have one child that co-slept till age 3 months and then slept 12 hours a night from age 3 months to age 2 in her own crib without waking except to search out her binky and without CIO. Not that we didn't occasionally wait a couple minutes when she was over a year to see if she would calm herself when put to bed, but it was never more than 5 or so minutes. After age 2 bedtime she started co-sleeping again and now at almost 3 she starts and ends in our bed but mostly is in hers and once back in our bed resumes sleep with no help from my husband or I other than cuddling and we still don't do CIO.
I also have a 7 month old child that has never slept through the night. He has a crib that he used for a few hours a few times when he was younger, but wants nothing to do with it now. I know myself that a baby can physically sleep through the night as my daughter did, however breaking the bond with my baby by using CIO is just not an option to me. Am I frustrated sometimes that he won't sleep in his crib or sleep through the night...YES...but I know that it won't last forever!