Please Help Me Reassure My DH Our 2.5 YO Is Not A Sociopath

[mama2cal&darby]

Okay, our DS2 (2.5) is quite defiant. He will be asked not to do something and without batting an eyelash goes and does it- often while keeping eye contact with us, as if to make sure we are noticing him disobeying us. I know it's silly, but it often does feel like our toddler is *flipping us the bird* Tonight at bathtime he made a HUGE mess in the bathroom after just being told not to splash a certain toy and my DH shouted at him. (No, that is not what we think is acceptable parenting at all. We try to follow UP as much as possible.) DS2 had absolutely no reaction to being shouted at and a moment later asked his Dad why he was grumpy.

This is why my DH came to me saying he is worried our son is a sociopath. He says he shows absolutely no understanding that he has done something wrong, doesn't react to *getting into trouble* and gives no reason for us to think he won't do it again given the chance.

I should probably explain that he is the total opposite to DS1, who is highly sensitive and would, at this age, burst into tears if there was the slightest edge in someone's voice. He would almost never disobey and (at least when it comes to discipline) has been very easy to parent.

I am trying to reassure my DH that there is nothing *wrong* with DS2, but he is a very different personality and we need to find some new parenting tools when it comes to him. Please tell me about your strong-willed/defiant children and how you discipline them. What works, what doesn't work and if any of them are older, please tell me something which will reassure my DH that they can turn into lovely and caring adults.

[mama_tigress]

Well, 2 out of my 3 are like what you are describing, and I've been reassured time and again that it is totally normal. But it often *does* feel like young children (in my experience usually boys) are small sociopaths, doesn't it? It's really just the way a lot of kids are. They are trying to understand a very complex world that they are entirely new to, and it's tough to learn all the rules. Also, it's hard to be a kid and have other people control so much of your life. And finally, I think kids just have a natural mean streak, a lot of the time. It's our job to teach them not to give in to it

[MeepyCat]

I think that what you're seeing in your kid right now is age-appropriate boundary testing. It's maddening, I know. I've got a three year-old who is all about finding the limits and hitting them at top speed. He's not a sociopath either - he's a sweet, adventurous kid. He can make me crazy, but he is also very invested in familial relationships and he's very loving.

We've dealt with this so far by being very firm and very clear. We explain what the consequences will be, and we follow through. We really have no hesitation about taking toys away (usually temporarily), or ending an activity. We also try to give him opportunities to run wild a bit. The local park has a gated playground, and basically anything he comes up with inside that fenced area is okay (if he tended to act out against other kids I'd feel differently). We'll try and make sure he has chances to run, kick, throw, splash and make messes in harmless and age appropriate ways.

[RiverSky]

Completely normal for a 2 year old to do that...a 3 year old, too. You have heard of the term "terrible twos"?? My son didn't start his until he was 3. Otherwise, he was always an adorable angel, except for well, almost a year in his toddlerhood. Every child is different and I'm sure your son will grow out of this phase, especially if you are as gentle as can be and as creative as can be at redirecting him. Have you read Playful Parenting? It'd be a great book to have your DH read, too.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by mama2cal&darby

Okay, our DS2 (2.5) is quite defiant. He will be asked not to do something and without batting an eyelash goes and does it- often while keeping eye contact with us, as if to make sure we are noticing him disobeying us. I know it's silly, but it often does feel like our toddler is *flipping us the bird* Tonight at bathtime he made a HUGE mess in the bathroom after just being told not to splash a certain toy and my DH shouted at him. (No, that is not what we think is acceptable parenting at all. We try to follow UP as much as possible.) DS2 had absolutely no reaction to being shouted at and a moment later asked his Dad why he was grumpy.

This is why my DH came to me saying he is worried our son is a sociopath. He says he shows absolutely no understanding that he has done something wrong, doesn't react to *getting into trouble* and gives no reason for us to think he won't do it again given the chance.

I should probably explain that he is the total opposite to DS1, who is highly sensitive and would, at this age, burst into tears if there was the slightest edge in someone's voice. He would almost never disobey and (at least when it comes to discipline) has been very easy to parent.

I am trying to reassure my DH that there is nothing *wrong* with DS2, but he is a very different personality and we need to find some new parenting tools when it comes to him. Please tell me about your strong-willed/defiant children and how you discipline them. What works, what doesn't work and if any of them are older, please tell me something which will reassure my DH that they can turn into lovely and caring adults.

Normal 2 year olds and even a lot of three year olds don't have impulse control. It's a higher reasoning function and that part of their brain just hasn't made the neurological connections yet. They also can't manipulate or use actual defiance (plan a behavior just to spite another person) for the same reason. My DD is very high energy, persistent and intense. She's gone from being a wild little monkey child to a polite, helpful 4 year old that listens a good percent of the time. She's also become very empathetic.

My favorite book for development is The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. It has some really good advice on behavior too http://www.amazon.com/Science-Parent...der_075663993X . I like Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Kurcinka for understanding temperament and discipline.

[liliaceae]

Sounds normal to me.

[mama2cal&darby]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Yes, we have read Playful Parenting and Raising Your Spirited Child. I will certainly pick up The Science of Parenting. I have been trying to talk to my Dh about lack of impulse control etc and I think having him read about it would help. I am glad to hear that a lot of othrs deal with similar issues!

[stik]

My dd is three, and she continues to think that "no," is adult code for "hurry up and finish that before I get over there."

She is also not a sociopath.

The key with her is lots of opportunities for gross motor activity, and controlling her environment so it's difficult for her to misbehave. She is a serious bath-time splasher and makes a mess, so baths are now a special treat that she gets when we visit grandma (who doesn't mind) and the rest of the time she takes showers with an adult, or splashes in three inches of water. Also, we've taught her how to mop. She likes to throw things, so we keep some things around that are good for throwing in a way that won't damage people or things, and our interior decorating scheme excludes items that are easily knocked over.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

When you tell him not to do something he hears, "blah blah blah SPLASH THAT TOY blah blah don't"

Its like this "don't think about an elephant" Doesn't work does it? You thought about an elephant didn't you? As soon as you read "elephant."

So for a 2/3 yo (and older) they have to think about the off limits thing first "splash the toy." Before they can think about NOT doing it. And because they have very little impusle control, they usually do it before they can even think about NOT doing it.

It often helps to tell them what you want them to do, "splash *this* toy" or "let's pour water from this cup to that bowl" or "sit on your butt" (as opposed to don't stand on the chair)

It's really hard in the moment to think about the thing you want as opposed to the thing you don't want. And often I find that all I want is ds NOT do something, I don't really care what he does instead as long as he DOES NOT do X. But that usually doesn't work and I need to figure out what I want him to do instead.

But I think it's too soon to tell if your kid is a sociopath. I would counter the conversation about it with "too soon to know" or "well I'll love him anyway" or "maybe I shouldn't be reading that jack the ripper picture book to him at bedtime anymore"

[kcparker]

Well, the Roman Catholic Church historically (and maybe even today) held that children did not reach the age of reason (capable of moral deliberations) until their seventh year of life. So, li'l guy still has some time before he hits that marker and can be deemed a sociopath.

And Dan Savage says something to the effect that a parent's job is basically to turn sociopathic aliens (aka children) into upstanding human adults, and it's a multi-year project.

Limits, swift, neutral-affect enforcement, problem solving that creatively meets everyone's needs is what we aim for (and sometimes get right. Other times, it ends with his harpy of a mother squawking, "For crying in a bucket, didn't I just say that if you want to splash, the shower curtain has to be closed?!? I am sick of cleaning up messes today! Bath time is over. Pull the plug. NOW. Rawwr.").

Mama's rules: If you wanna splash, the shower curtain gets closed. If you wanna throw stuff, we will escort you to the back door because we don't throw things in the house. Come back in when you are done (he's usually done as soon as the screen door shuts). Kick your baby brother, we pick up the wounded party, make much of how it hurts to be kicked, and ignore the perp., then talk with him about how he can show his feelings with words, like, "I am annoyed at S. because he tried to take my toy." Bang the metal fork on the dining table and you get the plastic one instead (this actually WORKED - score 1-parents, 0-fork drummer). Throw that on the floor, and you get down and retrieve it or eat with your hands. I know this sounds sort of hard-a$$, but these are really the only non-starters we have had to deal with in our house to date.

Personally, I think our DS doesn't respond to our annoyance because he feels so secure that we love him that he doesn't feel the need to please us to stay in our good graces. Mostly, the mess-making and flinging things is just exuberance and lack of impulse control, and directing the impulse to a more appropriate venue feels like an okay response.

This is why my DH came to me saying he is worried our son is a sociopath. He says he shows absolutely no understanding that he has done something wrong,

If he starts torturing animals or something, I might get worried, but a two or three year old child has no idea why things like splashing or making a mess is wrong. In fact, it's not wrong, it's FUN! We adults are placing a value judgement on the behavior because it's a pain in OUR butts to clean it up, and we are annoyed that our commands are not being obeyed. I try to be aware of how much, in some ways, I am still like a giant, internally tantruming baby when my DS is not doing things my way. "Noooo! Don't make that mess! I don't wanna have to clean it up! I want you to do what I need done, as soon as I say it! I don't want to accomodate your needs or your slowness or your attention to something I want you to stop doing. Me me me! Do it my way! I command you!"

[ssh]

Someone already mentioned it but small children often hear only part of what we say so telling your DS what to do will work better. For example "keep the water in the tub" instead of "don't splash". I still tell my DD sometimes "we don't live in a pond, we live in a house. Lets keep the floor dry". They hear the word "splash", that sounds fun so they splash. Even at my DDs preschool they say "walking feet, please" instead of "don't run" and they are talking to 3 and 4 year olds.

[mamazee]

I find the title of this wonderful and funny for some reason. I guess all 2.5 year olds are sociopaths in some ways, in that they have not hit a developmental stage where they're able to understand where they fit in the world (and that they aren't at the center of it) and how to relate to others.

So in a way, the answer is that yes he is at the moment because he's 2, and when he's older he won't be any longer.

Kids all have different personalities, some are more cautious, some more adventerous, some more naturally compliant, some more stubborn, some more sensitive, some more relaxed. It will probably be easier if he doesn't compare the two, for his sake and theirs. All personality types have strengths and weaknesses. How their natural personalities show up in the world will change a bit as they age.

[lmk1]

The book I've liked the best is "Unconditional Parenting". You've mentioned you try to be UP as much as possible, so you probably know that a good kid is not equivalent to unconditional obedience. It sounds like ds2 is much more adventurous and boundary testing than ds1, which may actually work better for him when he's an adult. That's just personality.
When you tell him "don't splash that toy", he probably doesn't know WHY you're asking him to do that, and in fact (as PP mentioned) now he's thinking about how fun it is to splash that toy. My ds does the exact same thing. Sometimes, I can show him why I don't want him to do something (ex, "be careful with the sharp needles grandma has in this drawer...you can get hurt"), and he will repeat most of what I said, and he will be more careful of not touching it, because he understands what "hurt" is, and perhaps the needles don't look like that much fun anyway. But if the reason isn't obvious, like "don't splash water on the floor"...well why not? It's obvious to you that you don't want to clean it up...but not to your ds. In this case, let him participate in the cleanup as much as possible, not as a punishment, but as "here's what we do when we have water on the floor", and try to redirect him to another activity like "where's the rubber ducky hiding? is in your hair? is it in your ear?" just to distract him from whatever it is that you don't want him doing. At this age, he can't possibly understand what a pain it is to clean up water...since toddlers love cleaning (at least my ds does...although you know you need to clean up after their cleaning up!)
And really, not obeying is not equivalent to being a sociopath...As adults do we do everything our spouse commands us to do? I definitely am more likely to do something if it makes sense to me and the alternative isn't more fun. That's just logical. Some people thrive more on compliance (like ds1) but that doesn't make them make better choices when they're adults, KWIM?

[karika]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

When you tell him not to do something he hears, "blah blah blah SPLASH THAT TOY blah blah don't"

Its like this "don't think about an elephant" Doesn't work does it? You thought about an elephant didn't you? As soon as you read "elephant."

So for a 2/3 yo (and older) they have to think about the off limits thing first "splash the toy." Before they can think about NOT doing it. And because they have very little impusle control, they usually do it before they can even think about NOT doing it.

It often helps to tell them what you want them to do, "splash *this* toy" or "let's pour water from this cup to that bowl" or "sit on your butt" (as opposed to don't stand on the chair)

It's really hard in the moment to think about the thing you want as opposed to the thing you don't want. And often I find that all I want is ds NOT do something, I don't really care what he does instead as long as he DOES NOT do X. But that usually doesn't work and I need to figure out what I want him to do instead.

But I think it's too soon to tell if your kid is a sociopath. I would counter the conversation about it with "too soon to know" or "well I'll love him anyway" or "maybe I shouldn't be reading that jack the ripper picture book to him at bedtime anymore"

children do not comprehend the negative. For instance, "don't stand up" is heard by them as "Stand up". "Don't pull your sister's hair" is "Do pull your sister's hair". I agree that when you find a way to rephrase in the positive, you get more what you want. "Make sure you stay in your seat" or "sit on your butt", "Touch your sister nicely" or redirection....

[Brownie~]

My son sounds a lot like this. He will ignore me and Dh and keep doing whatever we're asking him not to do. It's almost as if it's a game to him. He smiles this grin at us and keeps on with whatever. So annoying! He's 3, so I know a lot of it is impulse control. The problem is he seems to have the impulse to sit on the cat every. single. day. even though we've done stuff like a) made a big deal the cat's hurt, b) take away something from him, c) show him gentle ways to interact with the cat , or d) forbid touching cat period, etc....nothing works. The cat is so passive that he doesn't run away when DS comes near--cat lets him sit on his head, choke him, stick fingers in his ears, etc. The thing is, DS's actions don't seem to come from an angry place. It's like "see cat--must mess with cat." I dunno, maybe he's the sociopath!