Change of Heart - please read - Page 2

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

Don't trust scientific studies? I didn't write that. Although, I guess you have to define scientific study. Who's paying for it? What happens with the study if it looks like it's going a certain way? When it comes to vaccines, there haven't been any "real" studies. They study efficacy of vaccines, but not long-term safety of them.

Do you have access to a study where the non-vaccinated child is used as the control subject? As far as I know, there are none.

Here are some studies http://www.14studies.org/studies.html still none comparing vaccinated children to non-vaccinated children.

I've seen that site before. I wasn't actually talking about the content of the studies, I was talking about how earlier you said

"The second article is from the cdc. Did you take a look at who funds the cdc? Pharmaceuticals. It's gov't mixed with private business with no controls with regards to conflicts of interest. The new head of Merk's vaccination department is the former head of the cdc. She's making millions now...she was bought out a long time ago. I don't trust the cdc any more than Parenting magazine."

And I asked, "I've never found a study that didn't have outside influencing factors. How do you decide which studies to trust?"

So, regardless of content, how do you decide if a study can be trusted?

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by nia82

It's a little OT, but in response to scientific studies... That means anything and nothing. Seriously, been there done that. You can totally skew results and data without being outside the realm of allowed statistical re-calculation. We all did it in studies to get at least significant results. It's the way it's done. And if you want to skew it into a direction that you want to, no problem. Anyone who's ever done a study and knows her way around statistics can tell you that. Being in science actually made it a lot less credible to me. As my statistics professor said, never trust a study you didn't manipulate yourself. It's sad, but true. Science is like a dogmatic religion to many people these days without recognizing that it is flawed and can make a lot of mistakes.

Isn't that why reproducability is so important? Because if someone can't reproduce the study (including those who have an opposing view) and get the same results, then the study is generally mistrusted or dismissed. Right?

[nia82]

@ Heather: The problem is that you can reproduce bad statistics. That's why looking at studies, you have to carefully look at everything. Starting by who funded it, cause that is a bias. Then at the hypothesis itself and preferably get a look at the data file and the calculations that have been done. Without that, a study pretty much can be skewed in any direction. Without full disclosure it's hard. But I never even got that far on the vaccination studies, as they are oftentimes so flawed from the get go and setup that I don't need to look further. And the resistance of the CDC and others to fund a study that compares the outcomes of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated (true, not double blind, but a large enough sample is there, even larger samples are available in Europe) just raises multiple red flags - as they don't have to "deprive kids of vaccines" - the parents chose that, so no disadvantage to kids from an ethical point of view. I further take issues with preliminary studies in 3rd World countries with highly questionable standards....
Science is not as clear cut as many scientists try to present it. Honest scientist will never say "my study proved", cause you can never prove a hypo, you can just not reject it. Anyways.

[japonica]

Originally Posted by berkeleyp

So I've always been wary of vaxes. Reluctantly i agreed to have dd1 mostly vax'd - she skipped HepB, MMR, Varicella and maybe HiB though i can't quite remember. Her last vax was at 18 months I think.

I did more reading and followed my gut and didn't get dd2 vaxed at all - that is until last night.

We skipped all infant vaxes and I thought I would re-look at the Tetanus vax when she got older. Oddly enough, I was just researching about this and other vaxes again to see if I might reconsider now that she was 2, when she got a puncture wound on her foot on Sunday night. It wasn't bad, wasn't caused by a rusty nail, but I was still worried. I went into panic mode last evening (Monday) and started reading about Tetanus and how horrible it is and how it is everywhere and I really started freaking out.

Sooo, I called the doctor and explained she had this minor puncture - caused by a holly leaf (you may laugh but they are very sharp) and that she was never vaxed and he sternly told me to go directly to the ER to get the vax.

I realized that if my baby contracted Tetanus because I didn't vax her for it, I would not forgive myself. Tetanus is very dangerous with somewhere between a 10 and 20% death rate in recent years in the US.

I brought her in and she received the a tetanus/diptheria shot as well as tetanus immune-globulin to provide passive immunity in the next few weeks to hopefully prevent an infection from the current wound.

Now I know that she probably wouldn't get tetanus anyway because even though it is everywhere, you don't just get it from any cut or wound and I know that even at 18% fatality, odds are she would be fine but I realized that I had made my anti-vax decision based more on fear than on science.

I read lots of stuff here and also read several anti-vax books and articles online. I tried to dig through all the technical info to get a science based answer to my questions but all I got was frustration with the lack of good information and the obvious bias on all sides. I liked the Dr. Sears book but had to put down one by Neil Z. Miller after a section where he obviously misinterpreted some data - one obvious error and I questioned his entire body of research and his conclusions -call me crazy.

Anyway, I am writing here because I wanted to share my fear and anxiety about the possibility that my daughter would get tetanus because I didn't vax her. I hope that anyone reading this who is choosing an alternate vax route consider how they would feel when faced with the real risks of each disease in question. I think we aren't very afraid of a lot of diseases because we don't see them (because most people are vaxed) and so it is easy to believe that our children are not really at risk for the disease but may be at risk for vax complications.

Also, here are a few articles of interest from the other side- I didn't base my opinion on them alone but reading a little on both sides is important:

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/10/24/s...minefield.html

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/...achildmultiple

http://www.scienceforsale.com/2010/0...sentative.html

I'm sorry you went through all that, but as you pointed out a few times above, it was a fear-based decision. Logically, her chances of getting an active tetanus infection were pretty miniscule.

My DS just had pertussis this past March at 23 months old. He caught it from his vaxed and boostered dad who brought it home to him. Yes, the first week was upsetting at times, before we got his paroxysmal episodes under control with high dose SA, but I never once said, "Well, I should have vaxed him for it." My husband coughed for twice as long as my DS, so I could see the vax didn't do much to help him. DS recovered just fine. He didn't need any treatment besides what we could provide at home.

I think the majority of us who do not vax have some aspect of "what if?" lurking in our minds (now and then), but the key for me at least is to have done enough research and reading and to be confident in myself so that I don't make any rash decisions influenced by fear.

[Kat_shoshin]

Thanks for this though OP.

My son is unvax'd at 3. He spent the weekend running around his grandfather's cottage yard full of rusty nails. Occasionally he would take his shoes off before we could catch him (fly bites were itchy). I knew that we would vax him when we returned to the city. He is 3 and old enough to have 1 I think.

[Magali]

Originally Posted by japonica

I think the majority of us who do not vax have some aspect of "what if?" lurking in our minds (now and then), but the key for me at least is to have done enough research and reading and to be confident in myself so that I don't make any rash decisions influenced by fear.

This is so true.

[MyFillingQuiver]

I haven't read all the comments, but I would like to address the OP.

OP, it would be extremely rare for any non-vax'ing parent to have not confronted these issues you are bringing up. In other words, you plea with us to think about how we would feel and live with the guilt if our child(ren) who aren't vaxed come down with an illness they could have been vaxed for.

1) This is the standard line from peds/MD's
2) We hear this constantly in the media and from fear mongering parents who have chosen to vax (their right but they don't often respect ours)
3) This is assuming that vaccines actually work-which cannot be proven thus far
4) In our research and decision to not vaccinate, we've already faced those issues and feel more confident that our choice to vaccinate will result in less detriment to health than to vaccinate.

These points, and others, have already led us to this decision. I have to say your decision is yours to make, but it does seem you were "scared into it". I can understand that! That's the job of many MD's..scare people into "there's no other choice-if you were caring, loving, responsible and you had knowledge, you'd choose this". This is evident with birth choices, vaccines, placing middle aged people on potentially dangerous statin drugs rather than listing alternatives, etc.

I fully respect your choice as a parent. I hope you are very comfortable in this decision and the future decisions about vaccinations..I know how intimidating this can be! Please do understand, however, that most of us that don't vax (that I know) have confronted these issues, and aren't choosing no-vax'ing by ignorant default of not facing consequences of the choice.

[Turquesa]

It's complicated, isn't it? Vaccinating by fear. Not vaccinating by fear. We're all guilty of letting fear influence our decisions. I'll never be happy with what I do vax-wise, always fearing that I've made the wrong decision. But I won't give up asking questions and seeking answers. I hope you don't either, OP. I respect and even empathize with where you're coming from.

[2boyzmama]

Fear is not a bad thing. Fear is a biological behavioral response that has assured the human races' survival for thousands of years. It's instinctual.

Logic can guide fear, or rather influence our response to fear. Do I fear AIDS? You betcha. But I have the logic and facts to make a calculated risk/benefit analysis and either overcome or mitigate that fear so that it does not control me. I know to avoid risk behaviors, but I still take part in normal life.

I have done a similar risk/benefit analysis for vaccines. I know my childrens' particular risks of contracting the diseases, and of having severe side effects of the illnesses. I also am able to consider my childrens' particular risks from the vaccines (based on family history, medical history of each individual child, etc) Do I fear pertussis? YES. I very much fear it for my middle son because of specific risk factors he has that my other two do not. BUT, as of today anyway, the risk/benefit analysis is still leaning towards not vaccinating.

As of today.

I say that again because it's important, I think, for every parent to continually re-evaluate their decisions, not just regarding vaccinating, but every aspect of parenting. Today, my children are breastfed, intact, and not-vaxed. Tomorrow any of those decisions may change if I am presented with logical fact-based evidence that changes the risk/benefit analysis.

In your case, your child was faced with an injury that concerned you. Whether we all agree with that concern is not the issue, YOU came to the conclusion that it was concerning, taking into account variables that we may not know. You reassessed the risks/benefits and came to a new conclusion. You did the right thing, for you, in that circumstance.

Having said that, you are by no means now a 100% provaxer! Or at least, you don't have to be. There are many selective vaxers out there, for good reason! Maybe you'll now get all of your children vaccinated with DTaP, maybe you won't unless another child has a similar injury. Either decision is okay as long as you evaluate it as logically as you can.

Fear is not bad, but do try to ensure that you let logic and facts guide your fear, whenever possible.

I think the OPs message is just a reminder that all of us should be revisiting our decisions regularly, to ensure that we are up-to-date on information available, to ensure that we have an idea of what circumstances may cause us to alter our course, to ensure that when faced with something that challenges our beliefs, we are able to make educated decisions. And also to remember that changing our decisions is not bad.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by VillageMom6

Deciding to vax or not can feel like a gamble. Neither "side" can say with 100% certainty that their position is the absolute, ultimate correct one. We make the best decisions we can at the time based on the information that we have and the circumstances that are unique to our particular child.

I completely agree with this.

I know there is no risk free option. There are no absolutes when it comes to making this choice.

As others have written, I do my best to understand the issues and make a choice that I can understand even when I am scared. I need to know my reasoning - it reassures me. Whatever risk I take.

It has been a long emotional journey for me to look all risks squarely in the face (so to speak) and then make peace with my choice of risk.

Good luck OP. It can be so unnerving to have your choices challenged and to be left feeling like you had been making the wrong choice.

[arb]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

The third article is a blog about someone's fear of other people's unvaccinated kids. It says that there's no science supporting non-vaxxing parents? There's no accurate science either way.

Poke around the Science for Sale blog a bit before dismissing it outright. It's a favorite of mine. The author is a science journalist, and, as she puts it:

"... I get a lot of people coming to my blog because they search 'thimerosal' or 'vaccines' or 'toxicity.' And I am grateful for that, because much of what we are surrounded by, much of what we consume, have toxic properties: high levels of formaldehyde in cabinetry; parabens and phthalates in personal products; BPA in baby bottles. So many people assume I am also anti-vaccine. Nothing could be further from the truth. Precisely because I do concern myself with science, I am passionate about vaccination."

http://www.scienceforsale.com/2009/0...-dr-sears.html

http://www.scienceforsale.com/2010/0...sentative.html

[MamatoPeach]

My foot meets a rusty nail

We just moved into a new house with an old deck. I was walking barefoot and a rusty nail punctured my foot.

The first thing I thought was....everyone is going to tell me to get a shot.

I did have fear run through my head, but I trusted the research I did when my daughter was born. I made an 'emergency plan' for each disease. So I knew I could use the immunoglobulin if I were to come up with symptoms. And I knew to let it bleed.

I understand the fear. If it were my child, it might of been harder. Education is the key to survive the social norm.

Thanks for sharing your story OP. Real life experiences help to put this whole vacc thing into prospective.

[Kat_shoshin]

I think the OPs message is just a reminder that all of us should be revisiting our decisions regularly, to ensure that we are up-to-date on information available, to ensure that we have an idea of what circumstances may cause us to alter our course, to ensure that when faced with something that challenges our beliefs, we are able to make educated decisions. And also to remember that changing our decisions is not bad.

So true. I got to the Drs this evening and gave him the one vax we intended to get - not any of the others he wanted me to get the very same evening as though the floodgates opened. Some of his arguments were compelling, but in the end we agreed that we would discuss is again at some future date.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by arb

Poke around the Science for Sale blog a bit before dismissing it outright. It's a favorite of mine. The author is a science journalist, and, as she puts it:

"... I get a lot of people coming to my blog because they search 'thimerosal' or 'vaccines' or 'toxicity.' And I am grateful for that, because much of what we are surrounded by, much of what we consume, have toxic properties: high levels of formaldehyde in cabinetry; parabens and phthalates in personal products; BPA in baby bottles. So many people assume I am also anti-vaccine. Nothing could be further from the truth. Precisely because I do concern myself with science, I am passionate about vaccination."

http://www.scienceforsale.com/2009/0...-dr-sears.html

http://www.scienceforsale.com/2010/0...sentative.html

I did poke around the site. I didn't find anything extra-ordinary or insightful about her writing or her opinions. She's obviously pro-vax, but I didn't read any new arguments from her. It looks like she's totally against all toxins...unless they're inject-able. Anyone can write a blog and have opinions. I have a blog...it was really easy to do. It doesn't make me an expert no matter how many people like me.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by japonica

I'm sorry you went through all that, but as you pointed out a few times above, it was a fear-based decision. Logically, her chances of getting an active tetanus infection were pretty miniscule.

My DS just had pertussis this past March at 23 months old. He caught it from his vaxed and boostered dad who brought it home to him. Yes, the first week was upsetting at times, before we got his paroxysmal episodes under control with high dose SA, but I never once said, "Well, I should have vaxed him for it." My husband coughed for twice as long as my DS, so I could see the vax didn't do much to help him. DS recovered just fine. He didn't need any treatment besides what we could provide at home.

I think the majority of us who do not vax have some aspect of "what if?" lurking in our minds (now and then), but the key for me at least is to have done enough research and reading and to be confident in myself so that I don't make any rash decisions influenced by fear.

Tetanus needs specific circumstances of wound, care, and host health to thrive. My older child has had nasty cut head on his head (from walking into a 2X4 when we were building a swing set), scrapes, paper cuts, splinters, a staple in his finger, sliced his hand by doing something inappropriate with a scissor, and suffered a "ground up" (quarter wide, 2 quarters deep) spot on his knee when he slipped and fell on some broken car glass in a dark parking lot. We clean his wounds and watch for infection.

I've had Pertussis (pregnant and up to date on vax/military) which I caught from my then vaxed 2yo. My mother is old enough where she, her family, and all her acquaintance had the typical childhood illnesses. One time she said something about my not vaccinating and I asked her what her experience was with the MMR illnesses and she basically said that she had them, everyone she knew had them and no one had complications or died--and never brought it up again. The worst illness ds has had so far? pinkeye. Apparently bacterial conjunctivitis it can cause respiratory symptoms; ds ended up with a temporary inhaler and we all developed bronchitis. Dd, the only one completely unvaxed, seems to have less severe and shorter illnesses than the rest of us.

Either way, there is a risk. Even with vaccination you can't be assured that it will prevent the illness and there is the risk that any particular person will not react well and possibly end up with a chronic illness from a vaccine taken to prevent an acute illness.

[Emmeline II]

I hope that anyone reading this who is choosing an alternate vax route consider how they would feel when faced with the real risks of each disease in question. I think we aren't very afraid of a lot of diseases because we don't see them (because most people are vaxed) and so it is easy to believe that our children are not really at risk for the disease but may be at risk for vax complications.

Originally Posted by 2boyzmama

I think the OPs message is just a reminder that all of us should be revisiting our decisions regularly, to ensure that we are up-to-date on information available, to ensure that we have an idea of what circumstances may cause us to alter our course, to ensure that when faced with something that challenges our beliefs, we are able to make educated decisions. And also to remember that changing our decisions is not bad.

Though that would be a good message, what I got from it is that the OP is assuming that we are not likely to have already considered these things.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Either way, there is a risk. Even with vaccination you can't be assured that it will prevent the illness and there is the risk that any particular person will not react well and possibly end up with a chronic illness from a vaccine taken to prevent an acute illness.

THIS is my whole reasoning behind NOT vaxxing. I would rather take the chance of treating a mild/benign/possibly severe illness with todays modern medicine and current technology then take the chance of causing permenant damage to my children's brains/hearts/bodies.

My younger one is allergic to dairy, eggs, and peanuts. We didnt find this out, obviously, until he was over a year. Imagine if I hadnt done my research and just went ahead and injecte him with all those toxins that had been processed and preserved using chicken embryos. God know how he would have reacted at the ripe old age of 2 MONTHS!!!

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by berkeleyp

Tetanus is very dangerous with somewhere between a 10 and 20% death rate in recent years in the US.

For whom?

The Tetanus fatality rate is 18% in persons age 60 years and older. I have not yet found any fatality rate for children.

Tetanus Surveillance 1998-2000

Tetanus among children is uncommon in the United States. However, 13 nonneonatal cases occurred among patients aged <15 years during 1992--2000. Of these, 85% (11/13) were among children whose parents objected to vaccination (30). Before 1998, the two most recent cases of neonatal tetanus reported in the United States occurred among infants born in 1989 and in 1995 to immigrant mothers with incomplete tetanus toxoid vaccination (31,32).

68 wds.

[13Sandals]

Op - your doc did you a disservice by not being straight with you about the actual risk. A rusty nail is not in and of itself any danger. the tetanus bacteria cannot live on an exposed rusty nail, because oxygen kills the bacteria. if the wound is bleeding, tetanus cannot thrive because there is oxygen in the blood. tetanus has NOTHING to do with metal. It has to do with soil. I'm sorry you were put through this - but your lack of education about the disease led to the panic and subsequent actions. If you are not going to vaccinate in this day and age, you have to go beyond instinct and arm yourself with knowledge...because as you experienced, the doctors just aren't going to be straight with you when it comes to vaccination.

[ema-adama]

[B]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Though that would be a good message, what I got from it is that the OP is assuming that we are not likely to have already considered these things.

I know people IRL who do not vax, who have not considered these things. They are scared of the vaccines and scared of the diseases. And hope for the best (I think).

If someone has not honestly confronted the real possibility of the disease and come out confident that the disease is manageable (or the risks comparable with regard to serious outcome for the disease and a vaccine reaction), it is likely that they could be scared when faced with the reality of the disease.

I personally do not understand the reasoning of avoiding the disease and the vaccine. I don't think you can have it both ways, but that is obviously just my opinion (unless of course a parent chooses to 'hide in the herd', which would for instance be applicable with measles).

I know that many of the parents on this board have confronted the realities of disease and still choose not the vaccinate.

It can be problematic to assume that no rational person would choose not to vaccinate.