Dairy is not healthy.

[karika]

The girls and I went gluten/ dairy/ soy free some time ago. The pressure to have dairy in the diet is so tremendous. It comes from television advertising. I mean, cheese is on everything and it is in your face all the time. Then it comes form the govt telling the children it is healthy. The talk about it on children's tv shows, and in curriculum.. It is really annoying. I have done the research on a scientific level. I do not believe ingesting the milk form another mammal is healthy or serves the interests of any mammal other than the one for which it was generated (ie- cow's milk for cows, human milk for humans). I do not want to have to fight the whole world at every turn for my daughter to listen to me. I mean one voice when all the other voices are saying, no- eat cheese, drink milk, it is healthy, don't listen to your mom, she is wrong....

My 7 year old wants to eat dairy again. Her father wants her to. He thinks I am crazy for thinking it is not good for her. He hasn't read anything and is not scientific at all. So he got her cheese at the store. She got sick with a cold/flu right away. I also became ill, but was better 100% 14 hours later. She is still snotty 15 days later. I asked him not to give her any more cheese after she got sick. He at least understands it creates mucus... but then a few days later, he gave her a string cheese again (organic of course, but still made form cow's milk). She even told him she wasn't supposed to have it because mom said so. He said, "I don't care". So she ate it.

She has also been particularly argumentative since reintroducing the cheese.

Anyway, to all the vegans- how do you instill your belief about dairy when the whole world is conspired by the dairy council and the like, influenced by the opiates? If she told him she did not want the cheese, this would be a non issue.

And in case I am not eloquent enough for the non vegans, of course I will let her decide, but it must be an informed decision. She is too young to know what it does to her. But even she recognized that it hurt her tummy. The first time she ate it again, she said, "Mommy my stomach hurts real bad." She has an intolerance to dairy, gluten and soy and other things I think. She had tics and mood swings before I pulled those from her food.

[stik]

I think it is far more likely that your dd is reacting to stress and conflict in your living situation (and, possibly, a virus that she caught) than that she is reacting to dairy.

Regardless, your dd will probably have a great deal of difficulty choosing between your voice saying "no dairy" and her father's voice saying, "here, have some cheese." The worst possible thing that could happen here would be for dairy products to become a symbol of loyalty to one parent or the other. I think the best you can do in your situation is to serve her healthy food that matches your values, and accept that her father is serving her healthy food that matches his values, and that she is far too young to be asked to reject food a beloved parent offers her because her other beloved parent thinks it's unhealthy.

[spatulagirl]

Agreed with pp that she is reacting to stress and a virus. My kids and I have the same diet, sometimes one of us gets better quicker than the others.

I think 7 is old enough to understand. If you explain why you don't want her to eat it, DH explains why he does then let her choose. It isn't fair for her to be caught in the middle.

My kids are capable of making decisions on what they eat at 4 or 5. I explain WHY I don't eat certain things and let them make an informed decision. I had to take DD1 off dairy completely a few years ago because it made her so "wet" and mucousy. She understood why and still does. I think she was 3 when we did it.

Good luck!

[NewDirections]

I know dairy is totally wrong. I just don't know how to stop eating it I feel as if my life is centered around it, from mac and cheese, to veggie pizza, to yogurt, homemade strawberry quick, to the green monster smoothies that I make (milk, strawberry, banana, kale)

Don't get me started on the guilt I feel, but I just can't stop. Especially now with how stressful my life is. I hope to quit eventually. My son is 4 months and he sees me eating dairy and I wonder if it will affect him in a bad way.

[karika]

perhaps I will edit my first post to reflect what seems to have caught the pps attention, to remove the part that distracted. At the heart of my post I ask for vegans to tell me how they cope with the incorrect (IMO and the opinion of vegans and many others) information that dairy is healthy. In a quick post on MDC I cannot give an accurate portrayal of how things are in my home. My vent about him and his beliefs here does not mean we are standing beside her in each ear one telling her it is good and the other that it is not. That is not how it is. He and I do parent together. Dairy does contribute to illness. It does create mucus. These are facts. But that is not what I want to know.

For any vegans out there- some examples of the misinformation faced and what did you do?

your child learns about the propaganda food pyramid (does anyone have a gluten free vegan pyramid? or a gluten free dairy free mammal free one?)

In school they are told that dairy foods build strong bones and teeth and prevent bone loss (which is not true according to research done by studies not funded by dairy council or the agencies and companies associated with them)

that cows like to give us their milk (a reflection of the intense breeding to get cows that produce more milk than can be held by their udders. In reality, wild cow-like creatures stay far away from man and give all of their milk to their young only)

that only weird people don't eat dairy

add any other things you have faced or heard.... looking for BTDT info and experiences.

To those that think 7 is old enough to decide- my child is different. She is not able to understand what is involved in the dairy industry yet. She is not the same in all ways to other children her age. Her emotional growth is not the same I am learning since having another child. When she can read the scientific data, visit a few farms, watch the documentaries, then she can make the decision on her own. Until then, I will continue to protect her from anything that causes her more harm, which includes dairy in her case. If her father and her are determined to ingest it, I will continue to educate her and him as to what it does to her body and emotions (which go completely haywire in a SN child with dairy ingestion) When she reaches the age that she can understand all of the factors and research both sides (I am guessing for her it will be at least 10), if she decides she still wants to do it, I will of course back off.

For my daughter, at this point, her desire to ingest it is only based on the taste and the opiates it gives her, not health information or agreeing with the situation at dairy farms, organic included. She does not understand these things yet. When I explain about how they take the babies away on the first day of birth as the mother and child scream for each other, she gets it but it doesn't seem to stick. For instance, we see the movie Babe. She is exposed a bit to how hogs are farmed. I get to explain a bit, but of course not too graphic. (I was raised on a farm where we slaughtered our dinner often, so her life is far different and she is far removed from her food) She decides it is gross to eat pigs. She states she wants nothing to do with pig meat. Later that day, you could make bacon and ask her if she wants any. She says of course she does. I tell her it comes from a pig. She shrugs it off and says she doesn't want pig except bacon. Then you explain ribs come from there, and she makes the same exception..... She does not have the same reasoning abilities as other children her age I don't think.

[bandgeek]

I disagree with the pp's about the dairy not causing those things. It's possible it's stress related, but you said she reacts to it anyway and it gives her a stomach ache. Sounds like typical dairy intolerance to me. I would say she *isn't* old enough to make that decision for herself. I wish someone had sat me down and explained that I COULD stop eating dairy and then supported me in doing so. Or even just not bought it for me. I lived for 26 years with problems from eating dairy...I was not mature enough or educated enough to pull it from my diet until I was 26 years old! So no, I don't think a 7 year old can make that kind of choice yet. My 5 year old doesn't get it yet. He sort of does, but he doesn't understand the concept of not eating it when it's offered to him. Unfortunately he's with his dad half the time and he's offered dairy *constantly* and I get stuck having to deal with the upset, constipated kid.

I think you should stick to the basics with your DH...don't go on about how dairy is bad for *everyone*, just how it affects your little one. It giving her stomach aches should be enough to convince him that she shouldn't have it. If he doesn't agree...I don't know what to tell you, sorry. My ex doesn't get it either, but then, I always send DS back in better shape after eating vegan for 3-4 days straight so maybe he just isn't seeing the effects. It takes a few days for the dairy to make him constipated enough to be in pain so he can feed him whatever he wants and not have to deal with the consequences.

[KMK_Mama]

My life also seemed centered around dairy but when I started getting sick after everything I ate I got tested for IgE and IgG allergies and discovered I am severely IgG allergic to dairy. I used to think there was nothing wrong with dairy but now that I have been dairy free for 2 years I think otherwise. I would LOVE to have my kids completely dairy free (especially now that one of them is lactose intolerant I believe) but I keep getting everyone's opinions about it shoved down my throat. My MIL would flip out, my husband thinks if I take milk away they should still be allowed cheese etc. I don't think anything good comes from milk but it would be so hard to take it away from my kids who are so used to it! I mean, I HAD to and it was HARD. So I hear ya.

[rhiandmoi]

You could go visit a dairy and show her why you don't want her to drink milk. Many dairies do school and family tours.

[Shantimama]

reminder from moderator

Please keep the discussion to your own beliefs about what is right for you and your family rather than making sweeping generalizations like "Dairy is not healthy." It is acceptable to discuss your own situation, concerns, experience and beliefs but statements such as this are no more acceptable in the Nutrition and Good Eating forum than others such as "Vegetarianism is not healthy."

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[stik]

Originally Posted by karika

For any vegans out there- some examples of the misinformation faced and what did you do?

your child learns about the propaganda food pyramid (does anyone have a gluten free vegan pyramid? or a gluten free dairy free mammal free one?)

In school they are told that dairy foods build strong bones and teeth and prevent bone loss (which is not true according to research done by studies not funded by dairy council or the agencies and companies associated with them)

that cows like to give us their milk (a reflection of the intense breeding to get cows that produce more milk than can be held by their udders. In reality, wild cow-like creatures stay far away from man and give all of their milk to their young only)

that only weird people don't eat dairy

add any other things you have faced or heard.... looking for BTDT info and experiences.

To those that think 7 is old enough to decide- my child is different. She is not able to understand what is involved in the dairy industry yet. She is not the same in all ways to other children her age. Her emotional growth is not the same I am learning since having another child. When she can read the scientific data, visit a few farms, watch the documentaries, then she can make the decision on her own. Until then, I will continue to protect her from anything that causes her more harm, which includes dairy in her case. If her father and her are determined to ingest it, I will continue to educate her and him as to what it does to her body and emotions (which go completely haywire in a SN child with dairy ingestion) When she reaches the age that she can understand all of the factors and research both sides (I am guessing for her it will be at least 10), if she decides she still wants to do it, I will of course back off.

For my daughter, at this point, her desire to ingest it is only based on the taste and the opiates it gives her, not health information or agreeing with the situation at dairy farms, organic included. She does not understand these things yet. When I explain about how they take the babies away on the first day of birth as the mother and child scream for each other, she gets it but it doesn't seem to stick.

As it happens, I was vegan for many years. I no longer am. But I have considered these issues.

No school has ever told my child that only weird people don't eat dairy. And she attends school in an area where a number of families rely on cows to make a living. Some children have very serious dairy allergies. Some children genuinely are lactose intolerant. The food pyramid includes dairy, and, in the same category, dairy alternatives. We pointed this out when we poured enriched soy milk on dd's cereal. There isn't a vegan gluten-free pyramid because the food pyramid is too simple a graphic to show all the complexities. This is deliberate - it's supposed to make healthy eating look easy, not like you need a PhD to figure it out. When our family discussed the food pyramid, we pointed out the alternatives we used in each category.

Cows were among the earliest animals to be domesticated, and the selective breeding of cows began sometimes not too long after the invention of agriculture roughly 10,000 years ago. The Romans had cows that over-produced milk and headed for the barn at milking time. So that's true - the cows like being milked. It doesn't mean the cows are treated well, but it's true.

The pain of the calf separated from its mama is a really abstract concept for a 7yo. At that age, children are still pretty self-centered and concrete, and understanding an animal's pain in the absence of that animal is very difficult. If you don't want her to have dairy, simply don't buy it and don't serve it. Getting her to take a moral stand at age 7 is a battle not worth the candle.

Finally, I have to admit that I'm worried about your dd. You clearly have very strong feelings about food, to the extent that you've been engaging in hyperbolic discourse here - milk does not contain opiates, just for example. A lot of children like milk, but they aren't getting high off of it. You seem inclined to blame food for everything and to attribute nothing (at least, nothing that I've seen) to developmental stages or circumstances. You've noted that in addition to being vegan, you are gluten- and soy-free.

When I was vegan, I worked very hard to make sure that my dd got enough fats and proteins. Children need a lot more fat and protein than adults. I don't think I could have done it if I had also cut out gluten and soy. You note that your dd is moody. I worry that she's hungry. And stressed out. There is no way that you are managing to keep the stress in your living situation and your desire to move a complete secret from a 7yo, and inevitably this is going to create some stress. Changing your child's diet at the same time (from your posts, it looks like you've made this transition away from meat in the last month or so) is probably increasing her sense of uncertainty and adding to her stress. Please, before looking to a dietary cause for your dd's issues - mood swings, indigestion, whatever - think about the developmental norms for 7yos (mine was moody and she has no problems with dairy) and anything in her life that may be upsetting her. See if the problems go away with reassurance and consistency before considering the impact of her diet.