Peer pressure and the 5 year old

[noah's mom]

So, DS1 goes to a terrific daycare, but has a friend there who is, shall we say...not a great influence. This little boy (we'll call him "G") is 4 1/2 and is obviously exposed to lots of things at home (for example, he's watched Avatar, which I believe is pretty age-inappropriate for a 4yo). G. is also quite aggressive etc...but he can also be really sweet (because, of course, he's only 4 1/2!) And my son considers him his best friend (and wants to be JUST LIKE HIM)

Anyway, last night we're talking about DS1's day, and he tells me how G. is actually a girl, b/c he wears lipstick. Turns out they were playing and DS1 drew on G's mouth with a crayon to make it look like lipstick (not a big deal IMO), but then he made the following comment: "it's so we can make love and kiss girls."

As far as my reaction to DS1's comment...I know he doesn't "get" what he said, he's just parroting what G. told him (I asked him where he heard about kissing girls and he said it came from G.). So I didn't make a big deal about the comment in the moment. But wow...just wow....hearing that a 4 1/2 year old is initiating these things...I really didn't expect these kinds of peer influences to take hold so early. DS1 has picked up other behaviors from G. as well, particularly a higher level of aggressiveness and name-calling/back talk.

My ultimate question is, how to deal with these types of influences going forward? DS1 will start kindergarten this fall, and I know this will come up again, whether or not his relationship with G. continues once they're no longer in daycare together. I don't want to be the parent who tries to choose my child's friends for him, but how do I respect his choices in relationships while still dealing with exposure to things I don't yet want my child exposed to, and behaviors that I consider unacceptable but DS1 thinks are "cool" b/c his friend does them?

Help!!!!!!

[Qbear'smama]

With DD, I try to explain why I do not approve of the behaviour of certain school friends and indicate that I expect her to make the right choices in her behaviour rather than follow the bad example. I am sure at 4 it isn't fully understood, but I want her to start thinking about these things and considering our opinions. For example, she has a friend from preschool who is aggressive and she has gotten into trouble with him, following his bad example (jumping up on a table, things like that) and so I said that I did not like how aggressive he is and that she should think about whether she wants to be friends with someone who hits her and others. I also told her I don't want her hanging around that kid if she is not able to make better choices about her own behaviour, regardless of what he is doing. I tell her she is free to choose who she can be friends with, but she is not allowed to copy bad behaviour. I also spoke to the teachers and expressed my concerns, which they shared, so they watched DD's interactions with the other child and intervened where necessary. I don't want to be 'control mom' but am hoping we can teach her to make her own choices and not follow others' negative examples.

[meemee]

this is a dilema for me too.

because i have a dd kinda like G. she is precocious and knows way beyond age appropriate stuff. she asks and i answer. not answering or deflecting the answer means it will come back later as a big issue. (for instance at 4 1/2 we had the daddy puts his penis in mommy's vagina talk and it hasnt come up since then) however i wonder how other parents see her. i know she has shocked other parents by her statements. and yet those very parents borrow her because she has the ability to get their child to listen and do things which they cannot do.

for instance making love and kissing girls are not that far fetched. it becomes a personality issue. i know that by K most of dd's classmates were aware of 'making love' and 'kissing others'. i am not sure how much they got it but i know many kids are aware of the word sexy even at 3. of course i am talking about my limited environment.

i also question how much of the name calling and aggressive behaviour is actually age appropriate and not really influenced by G. it is not because of G that your son might be more aggressive. he might be aggressive and is using G's method to show it. backtalk is totally normal at your sons age too.

one of the things i notice is that how we deal with it differs from boys and girls. i notice in my dd's class girls are far more knowledgable about society norms esp. around love and boyfriends, while most of the boys are clueless. they seem to understand far more than they are supposed to at that age.

with my dd we talk a lot. how does she feel about it. not at that moment but later on. i express to her my concerns. what i am afraid of. why something bothers me about her behaviour.

but the key is - sometimes i have to let her have the freedom to experience something i dont like for her to discover what she likes or doesnt. mind you my dd is 7.

i believe there is a book (HOLD ON TO YOUR KIDS http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids.../dp/037550821X) that i hear is good, but havent read it yet.

the key is to trust and have a close relationship with your child. and a part of that is not just meeting your childs needs but your own too. and being honest and talking. AND giving them the freedom to be who they want to be. even if its someone you dont want them to be like. i have noticed my dd has tried out new things and then decided she didnt like it and came back to her old self. that's the hard part for me. to trust that she will make the 'right' decision, that she will make the decision that is more her than her adopting something she isnt.

my dd has had questionable friends. yikes i remember so much how hard it was for me when she was in K.

but i had to keep my mouth shut and let my dd discover on her own. and sure enough by the end of the year they were no longer friends. i have never ever told her she should not be friends with someone else. i may have asked her if she agrees with what her friend is doing, or that others may find her behaviour questionable and why but i have never told her she cant have that person for a friend. that is something i will never do. its not my decision. its hers.

[Qbear'smama]

I see your point that they have to make their own decisions, but shouldn't we give them an idea of what is right and wrong, from our perspective, so that they can have a basis from which to judge? I could be wrong about this, but I feel like at 4, my DD doesn't know much about the world and it is my job to give her my opinion on things to help her sort them out for herself. If I say nothing about behaviour on the part of other kids that I think is wrong, then isn't that like condoning it? Don't they look to us to define right from wrong in the early years? I don't feel at 4 that she has had enough life experience to make sound decisions about things 100% of the time. If she is fooling around with the child I mentioned, she probably didn't think through what the consequences of that behaviour would be and I want her to gain that skill. I will probably feel differently when she's 7, 14 etc.

[meemee]

choosing friends at 4!!!! FOUR YEARS OLD!!!!

thats accepting that there are four year old you DONT want to hang around.

OMG that goes against the very root of all my beliefs.

i have seen v. v. messed up kids at that age (stories that will make you cry i promise you) and yet there was nothing in them that was wrong that i didnt want my dd to hang around them. in fact it is through those very kids my dd learnt a lot.

i would totally watch her friendships as she grows older - and figure out what my philosophy is - but at 2, 3, 4 or even 5. NEVER!!!

if anything at that age i have found my dd has a much better feel for good and bad than i did. a few times she has totally put me to shame. she taught me a lot by her questions and queries.

[Qbear'smama]

Originally Posted by meemee

choosing friends at 4!!!! FOUR YEARS OLD!!!!

thats accepting that there are four year old you DONT want to hang around.

OMG that goes against the very root of all my beliefs.

i have seen v. v. messed up kids at that age (stories that will make you cry i promise you) and yet there was nothing in them that was wrong that i didnt want my dd to hang around them. in fact it is through those very kids my dd learnt a lot.

i would totally watch her friendships as she grows older - and figure out what my philosophy is - but at 2, 3, 4 or even 5. NEVER!!!

if anything at that age i have found my dd has a much better feel for good and bad than i did. a few times she has totally put me to shame. she taught me a lot by her questions and queries.

I acutally said that DD could not hang around that child if she is not able to make better choices about her own behaviour, regardless of what he is doing and, because I was concerned that she was being hit, I suggested to her that perhaps this child was not the best choice for a play copmpanion. I guess I just don't get how there are NO kids you don't want your DD to hang around. I commend you for having so much faith in your child and her choices, at the age mine is, I feel like I need to guide her choices and maybe that is too controlling of me? I definitely understand your point, but if we don't express our opinions of things we don't approve of, do we just leave it to them to figure it out? I have no idea how I would do that. If your kid came home and told you something one of her friends said/did that you very strongly disapproved of (violence, sexism, racism, whatever you would disapprove of), what would you do or say? Would you express an opinion? If this child's activities were not something you agreed with, how do you not then say "I don't like the choices X is making and I am not sure it is a good idea that you hang around that person"? Please understand, I am NOT trying to be argumentative, I am very interested in your perspective on this, I am definitely open to rethinking my approach, and hopefully we are giving the OP some food for thought.

[meemee]

what i try to do is focus on the behaviour rather than the person. i am lucky too that the dc my dd went to they always encouraged kids to speak up for themselves. so if my dd was hurt - physically or emotionally - she would go tell the child and the child would have to make some gesture - whatever it is to make the wronged child feel better.

really choosing friends didnt come up till dd started K. and then she came across bullies. not really bad ones, since the school has a real strict policy about that, but more domineering kids who only wanted their way. we have always focused on the power of words and how that can hurt people. however just because someone does something wrong doesnt mean they are bad people. and so most of her school bullies she has friended. she has found ways of connecting on some subject/issue they share and they became good friends. its actually funny to me. dd doesnt really care what anyone says to her. but oh boy say anything against her bf who goes to the same school and boy that's trouble.

she has had influences since she was 2. at 3 she learnt about guns and shooting from other kids. i told her not to point her imaginary gun at anyone.

dunno why it has worked out really well for us. when she was 4 she came home from a bday party sleepover crying hysterically wanting me to call her dad and both of us go over and beat the daylight out of 5 year old child who had kicked her hard on the stomach. i spent over an hour with her on my lap first just getting over her crying and then talking. i made some assumptions and they were correct. so that girl was irritating the bday girl so dd gently touched her on her foot with her foot and asked the girl to stop. the girl raised amongst brothers who would not tolerate any touching with foot, which they would call 'kicked me' reacted the way she does with her brothers. i reminded her even gentle touching with the feet was seen as a kick.

so i sat and calmed a hysterical child and got her to see why the girl had reacted like that. i even told her that she probably is shocked that dd ran out crying. boys dont cry. so i sat with her and explained how people react differently based on how they were raised. mind you it took me a while to come to that place. i too wanted to go and beat up that girl. till i had time to think about it.

at the end of a v. long time she was happy to return back to the party and play with everyone. but she did go up and tell the girl how much her kick hurt. they both had a v. sweet moment and went on to play.

dd was in a dc where one of the boys was being abused. he would pull down dd's pants and gently slap her bottom. the dc provider stepped up vigilante, but my dd also told him to stop doing that as she didnt like it. she was 2. just simple. no stop.

the key is Qbear'smama we should do what we feel is inside our heart to do with our kids - as long as we are not doing it out of fear. so you should do what you feel right and IS probably right for your son.

my dd is super independent and has wanted to make decisions on her own. she has also been to many communications classes with me so she gets exposed to a lot of social skill building opportunities. and omg they are sponges. they pick up before you even know it.

i have never stopped a friendship because it was making my child behave badly. i never want to do that. perhaps in her tweens and teens i will have to keep an eye out, but now no.

[JSerene]

I have to say that I absolutely would stop a friendship if it was shaping my child's personality for the worse. We would talk about it together. We may talk about it with the other child, depending. But ultimately, if there was more negative than positive, I would step in. At 5, my dd needs guidance and that may take the form of me telling her why she wouldn't be seeing a particular person any more. I'm saying this in general, not directly to the OP's situation, per se, since there was nothing in the post that would make me end a friendship. But the choosing the friends thing...oh, yes.

A point to add...my dd just formed her first friendship and she is a little bossy and also not aware that she may hurt the other child's feelings with her careless words - such as "go home!", "I don't want to play with you!", "Mom, can you make him leave now?" etc. So, right now, we are guiding her on how to be a good friend, which means teaching her ways to voice her desires without being mean.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by JSerene

I have to say that I absolutely would stop a friendship if it was shaping my child's personality for the worse. We would talk about it together. We may talk about it with the other child, depending. But ultimately, if there was more negative than positive, I would step in. At 5, my dd needs guidance and that may take the form of me telling her why she wouldn't be seeing a particular person any more. I'm saying this in general, not directly to the OP's situation, per se, since there was nothing in the post that would make me end a friendship. But the choosing the friends thing...oh, yes.

A point to add...my dd just formed her first friendship and she is a little bossy and also not aware that she may hurt the other child's feelings with her careless words - such as "go home!", "I don't want to play with you!", "Mom, can you make him leave now?" etc. So, right now, we are guiding her on how to be a good friend, which means teaching her ways to voice her desires without being mean.

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I would be uncomfortable with this friendship too.

But, I would think this is a good time to talk about HOW to make good choices. (because at this age, his bad choices are pretty harmless)

Teach him when to walk away... and how to do it while still looking "cool". He won't "get it" yet. But, one day, maybe in fifth grade when the troublemaker is throwing rocks at the fifth grade girls on the way home from school. Hopefully your son will have learned how to casually hang back and not get involved, or maybe he will even be able to stand up and say "No way... I'm not throwing rocks at them... I don't want to look like a jerk.. But, you go right ahead".

This is also a great time to teach him "no means no". (for everybody, not just girls) "JUST because you have really great crayon lipstick, doesn't mean a girl will want to kiss you... so, keep your hands off the girls".

This other boy is fun. He's wild and adventurous. We all like those kids.. everybody needs one of those kids in their lives. It makes life fun. But, we all have to learn to make our own choices, and it's OK to walk away for a little while if what your friend is doing isn't going to turn out well.

If he learns this in preschool, maybe it will save him a lot of heartache in high school.

[peaceful_mama]

I'm working on how I want to handle this too....it's just coming up now with my 5/yo and a couple neighborhood kids.

I have a rule that, so far, has really limited contact between my child and one other child in particular (who I happen to not want him to be around anyway for a few reasons)
That is, if you are going to play in our yard, with our toys, don't fight with my kids.

I send home children who don't apologize and give toys they've taken back, call names, or are physically aggressive or doing things my kids ask them to stop doing and they don't listen.

I have started explaining why they can't go to XYZ's house and talking to them about people and their actions. (Like, "When 'X" came to play, he hit you, wouldn't give back your toys, pushed your sister.." "When 'Y' comes to play, do these things happen? Who do you really want to play with?")
My oldest is really starting to get it I think...it seems to be working better than me simply forbidding him to play with certain kids.

I also allow certain kids to play here, but not my kids in their 'territory'....if I don't know/trust the person in charge of kid "X" for example. (with cause, everyone gets a chance till they give me reason) And I've started saying things to DS1 like "so and so's sibling is not a grown-up and they do not need an extra kid around to watch." or "I don't know his mom" or something.