"Parenting Without Punishing"

[ave-maria]

Hello all you lovely people! My fiance and I are planning to have children in the next year or so, so this is probably a bit earlier, but...

We've been doing a lot of reading, thinking, soul-searching, and talking about children, parenting, and, society's views and treatment of children, and children's rights lately. We've talked about how we grew up, how we were parented, how others we knew grew up, and we've come to a number of conclusions. One is that we are not going to punish - or praise - our children. No hitting/spanking, no time-outs, no sticker charts, none of that.

I came across a page written by a man named Norm Lee. He was horrifically abused as a child, but he made a choice to raise his children without punishment. This is probably a long shot, but I wanted to know if any of y'all also do not punish your children. Growing up in a household intent on mindless obedience where discipline consisted of emotional and sometimes physical abuse, I know I'm going to need all the support I can get while living in a society that is so in to punishing kids to make them obey and conform to adults, sometimes for no real reason. So has anyone else here raised their children without punishment or rewards?

[mom2grrls]

I have raised 3 children, one from birth without punishment/rewards. I started when my oldest was around 6/7, middle was 3/4 and youngest was a baby. it has worked well for us(kids are now 6,8,11) but I won't say it's easy, esp if you were brought up differently. There is a thread up top with recommended reading

[ave-maria]

Thank you! I've heard of some of those books and have some of them on my amazon list, so I shall have to read through the rest to see what they're like. Choosing to parent this way seems especially frightening because of how little "practical" advice there is, though I understand the reasoning behind it.

[NiteNicole]

Spend a LOT of time lurking in this forum while you're waiting to have kids! That is the best advice I could give anyone who is looking to parent without punishing.

I come from a background of spanking and punishment, as does my husband (not abuse, just plain ol' 70s parenting) and I have changed my thinking SO MUCH from reading how other people handle things.

I still have some fundamental differences in how I parent v. the ideals a lot of people here hold but there is so much useful advice. Just reading how other people brainstorm and approach day to day issues is amazingly helpful.

To me, books just have not been as useful as reading what other parents are doing - mainly because every day specific and common issues we all deal with are posted here and then lots and lots of people give feedback on how they would ideally deal with the situation. It's so helpful to hear how other people handle tantrums long before your kid ever has one so you have those options in your bag of tricks when the time comes!

Not every solution will resonate with you but you will at least be armed with options and ways of approaching things.

[momma_unlimited]

I think Naomi Aldort's cds on parenting are amazingly helpful for parenting and healing for the parent. I listen to them over and over when I feel myself slipping into old mentalities. She does not use punishment at all, and gives many scenarios for parents who have specific behavioural questions.

[Cyllya]

Hey, I'm in your boat, ave-maria: no kids yet, just here to gather knowledge for when I do. So I don't have any advice in the vein of "If your kid does X, you should do Y," but here's one observation I've gathered from all the stuff I've read, which I'll share because I don't think I've seen anyone word it quite this way:

If punishment seems to work, one of these things is actually happening:

• The kid only avoids the bad behavior because he fears the punishment. This means he'll readily do the bad behavior anytime he feels confident he won't get caught. This isn't what you want, especially if the bad behavior is something dangerous.
• Some factor other than the punishment caused the kid to avoid the behavior, so you could have excluded the punishment and still gotten the upsides. For example, the kid figured out on his own that the behavior is a bad idea, he just needed you to point out that it's wrong, he matures enough to understand why it's wrong when he didn't before, etc.

Plus, little kids often don't understand or don't remember the punishment, so it might not work at all on them.

I mean, if your toddler is taking dog food from the dog bowl and eating it, you need to put a stop to that because it's a safety issue (even if it's a nice dog, it might object to the kid taking its food). But you can just feed the dog in a place the kid can't reach. You don't need to teach the kid not to get in the dog bowl, because it's not like he's going to grow up to be an adult who's always stealing and eating dog food. Otherwise, every adult you know who didn't have a pet as a child would be doing that now.

On the other hand, just punishing the kid but leaving the dog bowl where he can get it is dangerous! Even assuming the kid understood the punishment (which you have no way of knowing if the kid is small enough), he might try again when you turn your head... and then he gets mauled.

When I was little, I stole some candy from the grocery store when I was there with my mom. I must have known this was not allowed (and therefore I would be punished), because I remember hiding it in my clothes rather than just taking it openly. I never got caught, and therefore I never got punished. In fact, I was rewarded by eating the stolen candy. So I'm some professional burglar now, right? Well, no. Sometime after stealing the candy, for unrelated reasons, I matured enough to understand both empathy and property rights, and it occurred to me that stealing was actually wrong, not just "against the rules." So I didn't do it ever again in my life. (But to this day, my mom thinks it's okay to knowingly take things from the store without paying for it just because the cashier missed ringing it up. )

[bonamarq]

Oh KUDOS to you for investigating AND DISCUSSING WITH DP beforehand! I will tell you that I have tried not to punish my now 6.5 yo dd and been pretty successful - I say "tried" because I do believe in natural and logical consequences and there have been many a interesting thread on here about how those are also sometimes punishments... that and my dh is more into the idea of punishment (although never yelling or spanking) than I am and I sometimes compromise a wee bit for the sake of presenting a unified front (i.e. - he sent her to her room -age 5 - for being rude to her grandfather - I found her crying in her room and didn't know why - but when I found out I backed him up and said if you are going to act like that no one wants to be around you - but if you can apologize and feel ready to join us that's fine - it was probably only the 2nd or third time she was 'sent to her room' - as I recall at age three we desperately needed a way to keep the cat safe and dh had her spend some time there...but the cat soon learned to scratch and that was far more effective at changing her behavior

I also think rewards and reinforcement of desired behaviors can be a effective (although not for potty training - IMO the less training you try to do the better - kids LOVE to get into power struggles over that and in the end they just seem to do it when they are ready - my own dd SEEMED more than ready but just didn't want to wear underwear - at 2.75 I asked this very verbal child "when are you going to wear underwear" and she just matter of factly said "when I'm three" and to her credit she did and never had an accident - she's a bit of a perfectionist so was waiting until she was sure she could do it and do it without mistakes. - She was the same with walking (RUNNING along the couch before taking first steps) and has been the same now with reading -

Learn about temperament and then discover your dc's - it will remain constant - I suggest raising your spirited child for this - b/c I think ALL children would be spirited (or at least more so) if we didn't try and punish it out of them!

a pp said punishment doesn't work and she's right - you also need to know what's normal and developmentally appropriate - knowing this will save your sanity and give you infinitely more patience to deal with the inevitable challenges

thanks for taking this time and effort - your dc will thank you for it

[ssh]

My favorite two books are The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland. It's about how parenting effects brain development. The book is very good for understanding development and has practical advice on why misbehavior happens. Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Kurcinka is good for understanding temperament even if you child isn't 'spirited'. And has a lot of practical advice on avoiding and dealing with conflicts.

We don't use punishment at all. Also we have a few of family rules instead of rules for just DD. Do things safely, treat each other gently/respectfully, if someone says 'Stop' you stop what you're doing to them. Our goal for DD is for her to be able to make good choices so we focus on why something is a bad or unsafe idea instead of obedience. As our DD gets older, she's 4.5, it's gotten easier. She was a really high energy intense toddler and is a helpful mostly pleasant preschooler. From what I've seen in families that do and families that don't use punishment is that there's more annoying behaviors when the kids are small and have no impulse control in the no punishment families and then as the kids mature, from 3.5 or 4 on, the behavior becomes a lot better in the no punishment families. Things like modeling desirable behavior and mutual family respect take longer to effect a child's behavior but are really effective discipline strategies in the long run.

We mostly used childproofing and redirection when she was small. We used time-ins, picking her up for awhile, for hitting, grabbing, or dangerous behavior. For manners and how to treat people we've used modeling and talking about possible social consequences. We avoid using natural consequences to teach a lesson because it feels too much like punishment to us, so if DD leaves her toys outside and it's going to snow I go get them. One thing you'll see in a lot of books is to tell your child what they can do instead of use "don't xyz" because they focus on just the xyz part and do exactly what you just told them not to do. For example say "walking feet please" instead of "no running".

Congratulations on deciding to not use punishment. I do think sincere spontaneous praise is a natural and good thing. I know my DH likes hearing the yard looks nice when he mows it and my DD likes me sharing her excitement in doing new things (wow, look how high you climbed). So we don't use praise or rewards to motivate but we don't stifle sincere spontaneous reactions. There have been a few threads about how people felt bad because their parents avoided all forms of praise.

[meemee]

for me the issue of punishing has been more about self discovery.

i parent very differently - even in crunchy community.

however its easy to do because its just dd and me.

i have never punished my now almost 8 year old dd. i have though slipped and yelled at her and even slapped her once which i could never imagine i would ever do. but i did.

the key though is taking care of myself. when your head is in a good place its so amazing how compassionate we can be around our kids - even when they are at their worst. but if you are stressed out then even their little idiosyncracies can really get you sooo frustrated.

i had a high needs dd. i was single. i had no help. through trial and error i found ways of taking care of myself that did not evolve being away from dd.

however even at the cost of sleep what was more important was for me to find me time.

i dont do punishment. i dont do rewards. i dont expect manners. i dont expect her to do chores. she is never allowed to tell ME thank you, sorry or please. i am her mother. i know she loves me. i dont need for her to be formal around me. i have never been consistent. i have said no changed my mind and said yes and vice versa.

what has worked for us is talk, talk, talk and me explain myself to her. so if she wanted icecream for bfast i first said no then said yes because i knew she would go eat her oatmeal after icecream.

the funniest part. she does all that without me ever asking her. when i go clean the bathroom she brings a brush and does the basin. sometimes seh tells me ma i really appreciate how you passed me the braggs without me asking for me. she has been doing our laundry since she was 2. my friends tell me she is the poster child for politeness.

however i dont look at her as a child. i look at her as another person i live with. i dont look at mysel as a parent either. i look upon myself as someone who has been given teh privilege to guide her. my job is to offer her options and keep her safe till she figures things out herself. just because she used my body to come to this world doesnt give me power over her.

for me what really really helped was understanding age appropriateness. understanding it was her way of learning, not that she was being mean or vindictive towards me. knowing why she was behaving the way she was was the best resource to decide what my discipline policy was like.

she had a lot of limits. if she ever disobeyed one of them she wasnt allowed to do them again at that moment. she kinda never did because i explained to her it was for her safety. for instance she was allowed to jump off the couch. but before she did that she had to check if the floor was clear. she had to check if i was there. she had to make eye contact with me and let me know what she was going to do. and then she could jump. she always did that.

since that has been my policy from day one its just worked out really well for us.

i have an extremely high energy, spirited child. she beats to her own tune. i love and celebrate her uniqueness. somedays i am sooooo profoundly moved that all i can do is cry. how could i be sooo lucky to be her mom. i soooo deeply admire her and the person she is. even when she was at her worst. i feel so lucky she was sooo high needs. she whipped me into shape into being the mom she wanted me to be. without her guidance i would have no clue. of course that meant a part of me lived in frustrated hell for the first 4 years of her life. the rest of me rejoiced at being her mom.

[NiteNicole]

for me what really really helped was understanding age appropriateness.

I think this is REALLY important. Read about age appropriate behaviors and challenges that are common for certain ages.

I hear a lot of complaints that, for example, a ten month old "knows what no means, and will even shake her head no before she does something so I KNOW she's being defiant" or a child is "very verbal so I KNOW he knows what I'm telling him." Impulse control and being able to follow directions are almost more acquired skills than learned ones (meaning they get them with development and age, not necessarily by being taught). It will cut way way down on your frustration level if you can know when kids just don't have impulse control, that young children generally do better with a few very direct words and not a whole paragraph, and that just because your toddler hit the cat it doesn't mean your raising a future serial killer!

Being familiar with phases doesn't mean you never correct a child who is doing something like hitting or you don't try to put a stop to it, but you don't have to go into full blown panic and wonder why your prefect book-approved parented child is doing this horrible thing. It's a thing some kids do, you have to parent through and sometimes you can't go around. If you can stay calm, you have a better chance of getting through it faster without freaking out.

[ssh]

Knowing what behavior is age appropriate really helps you not stress too much when stuff happens. Reminding yourself that most annoying behavior is part of a developmental phase and will go away also helps a lot with some calm redirecting and time. Knowing that you may have to say "touch gentle" and a 100 other phrases a million times before your child does what you ask (because they are learning and have NO impulse control) helps too. Having realistic expectations can make what another parent sees as a frustrating day into what you see a fun day.