Extremely resistant to assistance or correction - esp in public

[insahmniak]

Help!
Anyone here dealing with this?

I'll give a recent scenario:
We were at a friends house getting instruction and music for a stage performance we are going to participate in. Rehearsal is happening. I'm sitting next to her (she's standing) and the time comes to rehearse a verse she's going to sing. I find the highlighted verse on the page in my hands and politely hold the page up for her to see. She cuts me a look that could kill.

She just turned 7.

I know she's very sensitive to the mildest corrective suggestion, regardless of the scenario. But in public her rejection of my help is downright nasty.

How can a mother not automatically help her child in a way that she would even help any other stranger? It's not as if I'm forcing her to eat peas or something. I didn't thrust the page in her face in any nasty kind of way at all. I'd do the same for you in case you were next to me and learning lines.

I feel like I have to walk on eggshells in this regard. It almost feels abusive. I drove her 40 minutes to this rehearsal. I found the group. I got her involved. There are lines to learn. Here, let me hold them for you while you rehearse.

Scenes like this happen regularly, either with me at home or in public. The public ones are the most hurtful. The ones in private just feel stubborn.

help. what am I missing? How can I home school a kid like this? How does someone who has to posture as if they know it already not get in the way of their own learning?

I think I need to talk to a therapist. I feel like I'm getting something dreadfully wrong.

[Momma Aimee]

a couple of questions

1. have you addressed this as a disciplen issues -- ie respecting momma? Has she lost privialages or whatever you all do for her choices?

2. in the above example did she have a copy herself? where were the other moms?

[happysmileylady]

My DH does not take corrective assitiance very well either. We have talked at length about it. He takes those types of things SO personally. He feels like it's a personal insult, like it's insinuating that he's too stupid/weak/lazy/whatever to handle things. Perhaps something similar is going on with her. Especially given that she's so much more reactive when it happens in public, perhaps she feels embarrased and insulted in public (I am not saying that's what you are doing, but suggesting that maybe that's how she is seeing things.)

[insahmniak]

No - I have never handled this as a discipline issue. Rather, we've talked about it as a problem we need to solve. (ie This shooting daggers at me isn't working for me. What's going on? How can we fix this?) I'm not sure that's the approach that's best to take, but it's the best I can do right now. I don't have any answers yet.

She was the only one learning. I was holding the only copy we had.

She has told me, in quieter moments when we've talked, that she "wants to be strong" and doesn't want help from me, especially in front of other people because then she's not being strong.

I think I could try a different approach to offering her help - especially in public. It might include asking her rather than making assumptions. I'm not sure how well it would go, because offering help automatically is so - well - automatic for me. But in the above scenario it would go something like: Would you like me to hold the paper up for you? Sounds pretty egg-shellish to me, but it's a sensitive approach. At home it might be something like giving her more control over the feedback I do give. I could ask her, "Would you like to know my opinion?" I could give her both positive stuff or suggestions for improvement - at her discretion - and see how that goes.

I'm totally grasping. If I could only find my copy of that darned parenting manual.

[zeldamomma]

Have you talked to her about it? Have tried not offering unsolicited help? She shouldn't be nasty to you, but it also sounds like you're offering her help she doesn't want.

FWIW, if you were next to me while I was learning my lines, and you pointed the verse in question out for me, I would feel patronized. It may be appropriate to do that for a 7 year old, but it's not appropriate for a kid who's much older. Has she had trouble finding her lines in the past? Any chance you feel like it's your responsibility to make sure she doesn't make any mistakes, and she's picking up on the pressure?

I have a kid who at that age strongly resisted help, and the solution that worked best for us was giving her lots of time and space to work things out on her own. She tends to be a perfectionist, and so she is a lot more comfortable working through things privately. Now she's almost 9, and if I see her having trouble with something, I will ask her if she wants help, or make a make an observation like "when I do ___, I find that ___ sometimes makes it easier." But I don't jump in and help, unless she wants help, even if I can see she's doing it wrong. Given the opportunity, she generally figures things out or asks for help eventually.

Another thought-- could you help her figure out a polite way for her to let you know if you're giving her more help than she wants? Maybe something like cheerfully saying "Thanks Mom, but I've got this." would work?

ZM

[Grace and Granola]

How about not offering help? I, of course, don't mean that to be insensitive to your child. But how about letting her ask for help if she needs it? That would be a great lesson for her to learn anyway. How many adults do you know that don't know how or won't ask for help when they need it?

In your above example, knowing your child, I would either, a. not say a thing and let her do her own thing. or b. say "here's your paper if you want it."

and in future conversations, instead of trying to "fix" it so you can still offer help, perhaps tell her, "I can see you don't like it when I offer to help you, but I want you to know that I am always here if you need me. All you have to do is ask." And leave it at that. If you are going into a situation where you expect she might need help, remind her, I'm here if you need me.

I'm probably alot like your daughter. I hate when my dh offers "helpful" advice, especially when to me it's something so simple or obvious that I'm insulted that he would think I can't handle it on my own. If it's every once in a while, I don't take it personally, but when these "helpful" tips come often, it makes me feel like there is a general sense that I'm overall incompetent.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by Grace and Granola

I'm probably alot like your daughter. I hate when my dh offers "helpful" advice, especially when to me it's something so simple or obvious that I'm insulted that he would think I can't handle it on my own. If it's every once in a while, I don't take it personally, but when these "helpful" tips come often, it makes me feel like there is a general sense that I'm overall incompetent.

I can relate to this (although I don't have problems with my dh offering too much help-- it's more likely to be an issue with people I don't know very well.)

[insahmniak]

Maybe I wasn't clear, because in the above scenario it would seem very rude to me to not physically offer the paper. Let me try to describe it again and see if you still would feel patronized:

Remember - there is only one copy of the paper and I just happen to have it in my hand and I happen to be sitting just next to you. We're in the midst of the flow of the rehearsal and suddenly the time comes for your verse. You've never seen the verse before and it's totally new to you so you have no idea what the words are. I'm supposed to just wait for you to ask me for the paper? That really seems off to me. I'm paying attention to what's happening. I am aware that you have never seen the line and yet I should wait for you to ask me for the paper and thus interrupt the flow of the rehearsal - when I'm sitting right next to you? Honestly? That would feel patronizing? If I recall correctly, I didn't point to the line. I merely held up the paper.

But let's just go ahead and say I've just patronized you in this way. Would be okay for you to cut me a look that could kill? Would it be okay for your daughter to do that?

Let's take another scenario where my daughter is practicing her handwriting. She comes to me voluntarily and shows me what she has written. I notice that it's mostly correct, but that she has reversed quite a few letters. (She still does this.) Am I hearing this right - that I shouldn't give her corrective feedback because she didn't ask for it? If I said to her, "Wow. That was a lot of handwriting!" That's positive. I can certainly do that and she certainly seems to be looking for praise/feedback. But as her teacher, don't I have an obligation to offer the rest of it, too, as kindly or gently as possible?

I should add that she also takes music lessons, and has since she was three. If I never offered her assistance unless she asked for it I can't imagine how that that would work. If she's practicing one phrase incorrectly for a whole week before her teacher catches it, that's a whole lot of time she's going to have to spend unlearning and then re-learning it.

I can understand how parenting styles are different and that there will be some who are more sit-on-their-hands than others. But I think that's just true of people in general. I am a helpful person. I try to step in where I see a need. I don't think I'm overboard with this. But if your toddler running out toward a busy road and I was nearby I would not wait for you or him to ask me for help. My husband, on the other hand, would probably wait. It's a continuum. I know people who are much more "helpful" than I am. And I have felt patronized by them - but I try to take it in stride as coming from a good place. I also think we wouldn't end up being very good friends if they couldn't pick up on my boundary signals. It would be too stressful.

Anyhow I figure that if somehow my assistance offends others, it's up to them to let me know I crossed a line. Hopefully they can do that in a way that is not hurtful, and probably would do so in a subtle or unspoken way. This is the "problem" I want to fix: She and I have different styles. I can and will and do try to accommodate her. But in case I (or someone else) gets it wrong (as is bound to happen) I think it's important that she learn to communicate that in a way that isn't hurtful.

[SundayCrepes]

Originally Posted by insahmniak

No - I have never handled this as a discipline issue. Rather, we've talked about it as a problem we need to solve. (ie This shooting daggers at me isn't working for me. What's going on? How can we fix this?) I'm not sure that's the approach that's best to take, but it's the best I can do right now. I don't have any answers yet.

She was the only one learning. I was holding the only copy we had.

She has told me, in quieter moments when we've talked, that she "wants to be strong" and doesn't want help from me, especially in front of other people because then she's not being strong.

I think I could try a different approach to offering her help - especially in public. It might include asking her rather than making assumptions. I'm not sure how well it would go, because offering help automatically is so - well - automatic for me. But in the above scenario it would go something like: Would you like me to hold the paper up for you? Sounds pretty egg-shellish to me, but it's a sensitive approach. At home it might be something like giving her more control over the feedback I do give. I could ask her, "Would you like to know my opinion?" I could give her both positive stuff or suggestions for improvement - at her discretion - and see how that goes.

I'm totally grasping. If I could only find my copy of that darned parenting manual.

I know you just want to be a helpful mama and you might feel kind of useless not doing all kinds of little helpful things for YOUR daughter. She is your baby afterall. It's your job to help her. However, SHE needs you to not help her. So honor her wishes. She'll appreciate it and your relationship will do better when she feels you are respecting her wishes. She sounds like a kid that needs to be self sufficient. Believe me, I understand THAT feeling. When my son was a year I had him in the sling. My shoe was untied. My mom pointed that out to my dad who immediately knelt down and started tying my shoe. I was so annoyed they just did that without asking (and I was 44 years old.)

[insahmniak]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady

My DH does not take corrective assitiance very well either. We have talked at length about it. He takes those types of things SO personally. He feels like it's a personal insult, like it's insinuating that he's too stupid/weak/lazy/whatever to handle things. Perhaps something similar is going on with her. Especially given that she's so much more reactive when it happens in public, perhaps she feels embarrased and insulted in public (I am not saying that's what you are doing, but suggesting that maybe that's how she is seeing things.)

Yes to all of this. My DP is like this as well. We've also had lots of discussions about our difference. I'm so different from this. I give and take much more freely than he does. My ego is not involved. If there's a better way, I'd appreciate knowing about it and I'm not too shy to ask. (Thus this thread.) Discussion forums totally don't work for him because he flies so much more solo - no help offered or accepted.

I think the same thing is basically going on with my daughter. She's likely quite embarrassed by it. It will be tricky for me to not automatically offer help - like holding up a paper for her. It goes against all my etiquette instincts and instincts as a parent.

To all who are chiming in saying, "That sounds like me! I don't want to be helped either"
......
Thank you for your point of view. I really appreciate hearing from all of you. I must admit that I have a very very hard time understanding it. And I sure hope you're able to see the humor in the following: I really wish I could help you fix that! (Please know I'm just joking. I don't actually think that independent people are broken.)

Are there any moms out there who are trying their best to sit on their hands for their kids when it goes against every bone in their bodies? What a challenge!

ETA:
I like the idea of approaching it from a point of view of her practicing when and how to ask for help. We've had the scenario play out before where she chaffs at my help (music practice, handwriting) even when I've done my utmost to offer it uber gently and cautiously. So then I back away - also gently and cautiously - but I think that ends up feeling like rejection to her. She ends up crying to me, "I do want your help!" And then everyone feels confused!

I can't believe how raw this all is. This really is the nitty gritty of parenting for me.

[insahmniak]

Originally Posted by zeldamomma

...Now she's almost 9, and if I see her having trouble with something, I will ask her if she wants help, or make a make an observation like "when I do ___, I find that ___ sometimes makes it easier." But I don't jump in and help, unless she wants help, even if I can see she's doing it wrong. Given the opportunity, she generally figures things out or asks for help eventually.

Another thought-- could you help her figure out a polite way for her to let you know if you're giving her more help than she wants? Maybe something like cheerfully saying "Thanks Mom, but I've got this." would work?

ZM

Thank you for sharing what you've found helpful for your daughter. It'd be great if my daughter would say, "Thanks mom, but I've got this." Even a nicer look that communicated that would be welcome! In the heat of the moment, though, I don't know how she would go about stopping the fury that seems to automatically show up on her face.

Can anyone give me an idea of how homeschooling works with very independent kids who feel judged when they are offered assistance?

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by insahmniak

Thank you for sharing what you've found helpful for your daughter. It'd be great if my daughter would say, "Thanks mom, but I've got this." Even a nicer look that communicated that would be welcome! In the heat of the moment, though, I don't know how she would go about stopping the fury that seems to automatically show up on her face.

Can anyone give me an idea of how homeschooling works with very independent kids who feel judged when they are offered assistance?

I guess what I would suggest to her is that, when she starts to get angry, she should take a deep breath, and then say the phrase two of you have come up with. I agree with you that she may not be able to stop the look of fury immediately, but as she learns that you will back off when she asks nicely, she may stop getting so angry. Kids can't always control their emotions and how they play across her face, so unless she does something else rude, I'd try not to take angry expressions too personally.

Also, I'd like to suggest that you aren't offering assistance, you're giving assistance. It may seem like a small difference, but it's kind of like being offered a hug vs. being given one-- for someone who is not very huggy, being offered gives them the opportunity to say no.

Regarding your script example, if I were an adult sitting next to you, I would expect to be given the script when my part was coming up, or at least be allowed to read along with you (which may have been an option for your dd) but I wouldn't shoot you a dirty look if you held on to it until just when I needed it. But that's probably not practical for a kid, unless she's interested in following along. I would probably read her reaction in that situation as her being nervous, and not behaving well because of that. In that situation, with a 7 year old, we'd talk about it afterwards and I'd expect an apology, but I probably wouldn't make a huge deal about it, because the nervousness is a self-correcting problem.

Letter reversals are very normal for 7 year olds, and they usually figure it out naturally as time passes. I think I would probably start by finding at least 3 things to compliment-- specific things-- and I'd ask her about what she was working on, and talk about what she likes about what she's done. Then, as almost an afterthought, I might mention the letter reversals, very gently. I know you don't like the idea of walking on eggshells, but I think I'd try to reframe it as making sure that you're recognizing what she has done right. I might even start keeping track of how often I criticize my dd vs. compliment her, to make sure things aren't skewed too far in either direction (mentally try to notice how often I criticize my dd vs. compliment her in a conversation, I mean, not make up a spreadsheet or anything).

FWIW, the same kid who was sensitive to criticism is also the kid who I have to be careful not to pick to death with "helpful suggestions". So its possible that her sensitivity was caused by my sort of rubbing her raw by finding something wrong with everything she did (just a little bit wrong, but always something... ). My strategy of taking a BIG step back was basically because I did need to sit on my hands. It's only easy for me now because I've been doing it for years, and we've worked out better ways of communicating.

[chfriend]

Why was there only one script? Are you reading in the play too or just her? If her part was coming up why wasn't she holding the script?

Could it be that was what was bugging her?

If I worked hard on dinner and the edge of the bread was a little crispy, I think it would cheese me but good if someone said, "That's a lot of dinner. You mostly did it right, but next time don't leave the bread in so long."

I think it might build your relationship if you tried not to offer one "helpful suggestion" or "correction" of her work for a day or two. See how it feels to let her figure some things out on her own.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by insahmniak

Yes to all of this. My DP is like this as well. We've also had lots of discussions about our difference. I'm so different from this. I give and take much more freely than he does. My ego is not involved. If there's a better way, I'd appreciate knowing about it and I'm not too shy to ask. (Thus this thread.) Discussion forums totally don't work for him because he flies so much more solo - no help offered or accepted.

I think the same thing is basically going on with my daughter. She's likely quite embarrassed by it. It will be tricky for me to not automatically offer help - like holding up a paper for her. It goes against all my etiquette instincts and instincts as a parent.

To all who are chiming in saying, "That sounds like me! I don't want to be helped either"
......
Thank you for your point of view. I really appreciate hearing from all of you. I must admit that I have a very very hard time understanding it. And I sure hope you're able to see the humor in the following: I really wish I could help you fix that! (Please know I'm just joking. I don't actually think that independent people are broken.)

Are there any moms out there who are trying their best to sit on their hands for their kids when it goes against every bone in their bodies? What a challenge!

ETA:
I like the idea of approaching it from a point of view of her practicing when and how to ask for help. We've had the scenario play out before where she chaffs at my help (music practice, handwriting) even when I've done my utmost to offer it uber gently and cautiously. So then I back away - also gently and cautiously - but I think that ends up feeling like rejection to her. She ends up crying to me, "I do want your help!" And then everyone feels confused!

I can't believe how raw this all is. This really is the nitty gritty of parenting for me.

Yes, I think talking about how to ask for help is your best bet. I think that it's important for our kids to learn that asking for and receiving help is not an admission of weakness or lack of intelligence or anything else like that. In addition to that, perhaps focus on good modling yourself, and bringing attention to that. When doing the dishes, ask her or your DH or whoever for help, then express your appreciation for it-"Thank you so much for giving me a hand with that, I knew there was no way I could get it done in time for us to be able to go to the park if I tried to do it all by myself." Obviously that's a rather simplified and exaggerated example, but you get the idea.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by insahmniak

To all who are chiming in saying, "That sounds like me! I don't want to be helped either"
......
Thank you for your point of view. I really appreciate hearing from all of you. I must admit that I have a very very hard time understanding it. And I sure hope you're able to see the humor in the following: I really wish I could help you fix that! (Please know I'm just joking. I don't actually think that independent people are broken.)

This absolutely tickles me I am one of those people. (But I am also a very helpful person.) I would caution you about many of the scenarios you described as "walking on eggshells." Please be careful that you don't manipulate your help in a way that you can still slide it in there even though maybe you shouldn't. I hope I can be clear. My husband has a way of giving me "back-handed" advice. And he does this by always asking it as a question. Here's what I mean:

"Did you know the stove's on?" (seriously, of course I knew!)
----what he really means is, It doesn't look like you're using the stove, should I turn it off?

"Do you want a light on?" (If I did, I would turn it on.)
----what he really means is, I think you need a light on while you're reading

I hope you see where I'm coming from. My husband has a need to "help," which to me comes across as condescension and criticism. And it is especially irritating because he uses twisted language so he doesn't sound like he's critical! My wish is that he would just trust me. Trust me to turn a light on when i feel like I need it to read. Trust that I, being the cook in the family, know that I turned the stove on.

I know it's different with kids, because they do require a certain amount of help. But your daughter is telling you she needs that independence. I have a 3yo who I predict will be the same. He's already like that with alot of things, and I have learned to take a step back and watch and wait. He sometimes fumbles around, but he seems to really enjoy the challenge of figuring things out on his own. And if I try to intervene, holy terror!


After your clarification on the paper at rehearsal. How would your dd have reacted if when the music started, you just said, "here's your paper."

I get the disrespect too. I'm starting to get that with my almost 5yo. We just talked today and practiced appropriate replies. We talked about, instead of complaining, say no thank you. Instead of whining, try Ok mom! And I even acted out the horrible noises and grimaces he was making and asked him if he should choose that or XYZ. He had fun with me imitating his ugly faces, not sure if your dd would appreciate that, but it could be fun! I like the idea of giving her a key phrase to use when she needs you to step back.

[StrongBeliever]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Why was there only one script? Are you reading in the play too or just her? If her part was coming up why wasn't she holding the script?

Could it be that was what was bugging her?

If I worked hard on dinner and the edge of the bread was a little crispy, I think it would cheese me but good if someone said, "That's a lot of dinner. You mostly did it right, but next time don't leave the bread in so long."

I think it might build your relationship if you tried not to offer one "helpful suggestion" or "correction" of her work for a day or two. See how it feels to let her figure some things out on her own.

We are an unschooling family, for what it's worth. I'm wondering, also... If she was the one participating in the play and you only had one copy of the script, why didn't she have it in the first place? Coming from a gentle place(as that can be read snarky, I'm sure)... I think it is really easy to think that we have the ultimate responsibility for how things are conducted in our childrens' lives. To an extent, we do. But they are people just the same as anybody and need to be responsible to the full extent that they are able for the things that they do. Maybe she is chafing at at mom always being there. While your intent is good, I can see how it might get old to a girl that feels like she wants to be strong. Think keeping the training wheels on long after they have the balance mastered for fear that they might mess up. Think of the frustration that would build from always having a limit to how far you can push yourself, no matter how safe and helpful that limit may be. Getting those scuffs and bruises... Having the opportunity to get those scuffs and bruises, is a really important part of growing up. The time when they reach that place is going to be different for every kid. But it sounds to me like your daughter is well past ready. Like maybe the time to let little birdie try to fly might have been a long time ago. If she has had enough time to get to the point where she is really and truly angry enough to shoot you looks in public, I would think so. It sounds like you guys have talked about it plenty, but maybe its not her problem. Maybe you aren't hearing her. And the escalating aggressive resistance is coming from a place where she is resenting you for not stepping back (when she's told you the best way she knows how) and giving her some room to feel things out on HER level... Room to fail, if need be. Maybe she's feeling kind of ?

I was a what I would call a "helicopter mom" for a long time. Always hovering around in case I was needed. But I had to come to terms with the fact that my kids didn't need that. My son is totally the get his own band-aid type. That doesn't stop him from coming to me when he needs me though. You'll always be there for her. She KNOWS that. And she knows where to find you when she really needs you. Right now it's her need to stretch her wings versus your need to help her.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by insahmniak

Thank you for sharing what you've found helpful for your daughter. It'd be great if my daughter would say, "Thanks mom, but I've got this." Even a nicer look that communicated that would be welcome! In the heat of the moment, though, I don't know how she would go about stopping the fury that seems to automatically show up on her face.

Can anyone give me an idea of how homeschooling works with very independent kids who feel judged when they are offered assistance?

I have a daughter who likes to be helpful and we often have conversations about figuring out what is truly helpful to someone and how that can be different from us doing what we want under the guise of being helpful. She often steps in with the best of intentions but it can be overbearing and unhelpful. She's learning to ask "how can I help?" rather than just assuming that she knows what is best for others. I am also trying to help her see the difference between taking control and offering support.

With respect to homeschooling, I also have an independent kid who owns his own learning and will not perform or display his learning for others unless it is on his terms. He'll shut down if he feels like that control is being taken away from him.
Over the years we've worked out a few things. I ask him what he needs in a neutral time and place. So I'll say something like "I notice you've been working on handwriting a lot lately. Do you need anything from me to help with that?"
If he shows me something he's working on I comment on it positively and thank him for showing me. I'll sometimes ask him if he's looking for more feedback. He is free to say yes or no. We've talked about this in non-situation specific conversations so we can deal with it in generalities rather than specifics and we've talked about ways he can ask for help from me, or ways he can get what he needs from other sources if he thinks that would work better (library, mentors, internet etc)

For all my kids, if they are working on an academic skill (math, spelling etc) and it is "school time" if I see errors, I will let them know which questions or components they need to rethink, rework or recheck. I'll ask them if they want help from me if it is clear it is a computational issue. If they are missing a concept I will explain it matter of factly and ask them if they need any more resources (books, online videos, their brother to explain it, a different resource - whatever.)

With respect to offering help to your daughter, it sounds as though the help she needs is with big picture stuff and higher level skills (ie communication, perspective, learning how and when to ask for help etc) rather than you doing things she is capable of doing herself - ie holding a paper for her. I personally can understand her annoyance at that - why not just hand her the paper. Unless I am not understanding the situation, I am a bit unclear about why you had the paper or were involved in the rehearsal at all. Are you in the performance with her? If not could you step back and let her do her thing independently and participate where required - ie the driving?

For her music lessons, perhaps you could implement a 5 minute meeting before practises. You can check in with her about what kind of help she needs or wants, ask her if she has the resources and info she needs and what kind of feedback or support she wants from you. Setting it up this way can help her learn organizational skills, how to ask for help etc. It sounds as though she's trying to find ways to be independent. She may already realize that the way you show love is through acts of service and so she might feel conflicted when you withdraw that, even as she is trying to show you what she needs. This might explain why she rejects and then says she wants your help.

I wanted to touch on something else you said in your OP

Originally Posted by insahmniak

I feel like I have to walk on eggshells in this regard. It almost feels abusive. I drove her 40 minutes to this rehearsal. I found the group. I got her involved. There are lines to learn. Here, let me hold them for you while you rehearse.

This reads to me like perhaps there are some other issues that might be at play here. Does she WANT to be involved? It sounds as though you are really invested in this performance and in the outcome. Are you able to invest some time and energy getting your tank filled in non-homeschooling and non-parenting ways?

hth
Karen

[meemee]

OP why is this affecting you sooo much. your dd is just 7. why is it so painful for you?

first of all it is the age.

your 7 year old sounds a lot like mine. mine is super super independent. and i have had many, many 'if looks could kill looks'. the point is not what you did at that moment. its more about the other times - offering her ways to show her independence.

i have done this by putting responsibilities over responsibilities on dd. mind you we are a schooling and afterschooling family. by doing that i get a feel for how much she can take. and we have both surprised each other.

this is a normal piece of childhood. i feel i have another 7 or 10 years before dd makes me cry. not now. if anything actually her anger and looks make me laugh at how grown up she is getting.

you have used some v. v. v. strong words here. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells in this regard. It almost feels abusive. i am concerned about you!!!! what is going on? why are you reacting so intensely?

this may be just me but reading in between the lines, it seems like you feel she should be more grateful for what you do and that really upsets you that she doesnt. its almost like you dont feel valued. you feel rejected. why?

dd and i dialogue a lot. we talk a lot. while she is cooking i use that time to chat so she doesnt feel i am hovering around her over the stove. i bring up issues that we need to discuss that carries on over the meal. if something has upset me i bring that with her and vice versa.

[kathymuggle]

A few practical suggestion. Hugs, mama!

Originally Posted by insahmniak

I am aware that you have never seen the line and yet I should wait for you to ask me for the paper and thus interrupt the flow of the rehearsal - when I'm sitting right next to you? Honestly? That would feel patronizing? If I recall correctly, I didn't point to the line. I merely held up the paper.

But let's just go ahead and say I've just patronized you in this way. Would be okay for you to cut me a look that could kill? Would it be okay for your daughter to do that?

Here goes: I would be happy if you held up the paper, and grateful. I, however, have no history or baggage with you. If your DD is independant, and you are a helper, you might have a history of offering help or simply helping when she does not want it. This may have made her a touch sensitive on this issue. The only way to remedy this situation is for you to back off - across the board. You have to break the cycle because you are the mama, and she is a 7 year old child.


As per nasty looks - both my DD do them. I often let it roll off me. When I am angry or being serious and they do the "nasty look" thing it infuriates me (and they hear about it!) , but I also let it go fairly quickly. A nasty look is really not that big a deal - and is far better than harsh words, a temper tantrum, or meltdown. I think you might be oversensitive in this area, and you need to ask yourself why.

Let's take another scenario where my daughter is practicing her handwriting. She comes to me voluntarily and shows me what she has written. I notice that it's mostly correct, but that she has reversed quite a few letters. (She still does this.) Am I hearing this right - that I shouldn't give her corrective feedback because she didn't ask for it? If I said to her, "Wow. That was a lot of handwriting!" That's positive. I can certainly do that and she certainly seems to be looking for praise/feedback. But as her teacher, don't I have an obligation to offer the rest of it, too, as kindly or gently as possible?

If she came to you during her free time, I would ohh and ahh over the writing and that is all. She is sharing with you, not asking for feedback. If it is during school time, I would offer corrections - and I would do so matter of factly. I think visual cues are great (particualrly for people who interpret correction as criticism)- like the alphabet printed in the correct direction at the top of a workbook (or a paper on the wall). During school time only, I would ask her to consult the visual to see if she could find her reversal. It might even be a game - I see 3 reversals...can you find them? It is also an excellent way for kids to learn to turn to resources other than adults as a source of knowledge.

I should add that she also takes music lessons, and has since she was three. If I never offered her assistance unless she asked for it I can't imagine how that that would work. If she's practicing one phrase incorrectly for a whole week before her teacher catches it, that's a whole lot of time she's going to have to spend unlearning and then re-learning it.

It would work the way many kids programs work - she would go to class, practice if she wants to, go to the next class. If she does a piece wrong for the week - oh, well. The teacher would offer correction if need be. If the music is her deal - let it be her deal. Drive her, pay for it, applaud loudly...but that is about it.


Anyhow I figure that if somehow my assistance offends others, it's up to them to let me know I crossed a line. Hopefully they can do that in a way that is not hurtful, and probably would do so in a subtle or unspoken way. This is the "problem" I want to fix: She and I have different styles. I can and will and do try to accommodate her. But in case I (or someone else) gets it wrong (as is bound to happen) I think it's important that she learn to communicate that in a way that isn't hurtful.

I think frequent offers to help over little things can leave people feeling patronised, critisized or like you do not trust them. I have been on the receiving end of constant offers of help - and it is not good. I am going through this at the moment, and I am having trouble initiating a conversation to stop it (and I am 38 - not 7). I think it is a tall order for a 7 year old. In any event she has sent signals that she does not want as much assistance across the board as you are offering - you need to respect that.

You do need to work with her on communicating her need for independence nicely - but expect mistakes. Roll play, give her words, develop a signal between the 2 of you for when she needs more space. Expect it to take a while. In the meantime, you are one of the closest people in the world to her - she has clearly communicated to you a need for independence. Let her learn that she can trust you to take her needs seriously. Back off a bit, as she has asked.

I do think offers of assistance do have a place - but they should be in general (I am here to help you - ask whenever you need!) and over things that she is clearly overwhelmed with.

As per HSing - I think it is irrelevant. I don't think a independent child is any harder to work with than a dependant one. Both offer different challenges - but that is parenthood!

I reread and think much of the above sounds harsh. You sound in pain though, so maybe this thread will help you (even if there is some harshness). The good news is I do not think any of this is insurmountable - it sounds like a power struggle - she wants independence - and you want to help or have your offers nicely refused (something she may not be capable of yet). Power struggles are fairly easy to end in some ways - disengage. This is not a power struggle worth having -and, tbh , she is in the right. Child do strive for independence - it is the natural progression towards adulthood. Good luck,mama! You can untangle this ball of yarn.

[moominmamma]

A lot of great ideas put forth already. I have one of these kids, and I was one of these kids. I could feel my hackles rising with the descriptions of "back-handed" help. I've definitely experienced that. I also really resonated with much of what KarenWith4 said (as usual!). Some great advice in there.

On the issue of the music lyric sheet. I don't think you did anything particularly wrong in offering the sheet of music. Rather I suspect that your innocent offer of the paper served as a flashpoint for seething anger that your dd was already feeling about something else about the scenario. I wonder if she had hoped to be sitting apart from you, or had expected the rehearsal experience to be more glorious and independent than it had turned out to be, or had assumed she'd have the chance to shine by proving immediate, well-nigh magical mastery of the music, or who knows what.

I think the root of the problem isn't so much the help / corrections / reminders per se as it is the really intense attachment she has to particular outcomes. When something doesn't work out as she expected, you become the target of her internal anger because your help is an overt manifestation of the her failure to reach her dream outcome.

All of which means that it might be helpful to do a lot more talking in advance about her expectations, encouraging her to enter into scenarios and situations with a more flexible mindset, and allowing you to get a better sense of what her hopes and expectations are. If she shows you something she's done, express appreciation for her effort, and then ask what she's seeking from you: just the appreciation, or specific feedback? Going into a new experience like the theatre rehearsal, ask her what she thinks it will be like, mention some different possibilities and casually take a no-big-deal attitude and optimistic curiosity about how it'll play out, and ask what role she would like you to play. Have a discussion before she's developed the anger about unmet expectations and unachieved outcomes and you'll probably find she's a much more reasonable person.

I have kids I absolutely cannot "correct" with their violin or viola practicing, but if I catch them early in the day before they've practiced and say "Oh hey, by the way, when you're practicing the Pergolesi today, you might want to check those bowings in the recapitulation. Yesterday it sounded to me like there were some extra slurs in." At most I'll get a brief scowl, and then later in the day I'll hear some diligent work on the bowings. That's because I've got the "help" in at a separate, non-viola time when all the ego-fragility and perfectionism that goes along with being really invested in the music is quiescent.

Hope that helps!

Miranda