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Extremely resistant to assistance or correction - esp in public - Page 2

post #21 of 34
insahmniak, it sounds like this has been really rough for you!

Are you familiar with the five love languages http://5lovelanguages.com? My understanding is that people naturally express & pick up on love in different ways. They are words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, & physical touch. They have a quiz at the website, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you might have a lot of acts of service in your make-up! Doing things for your daughter is simply how you show love. That's a wonderful thing! But what if your daughter doesn't "hear" your acts of service as love? What if she's a different language and doesn't remotely perceive the love behind your actions? Maybe if you found out her language and started speaking love to her in a way she's better able to understand it things would start to smooth out some?

Let us know how things go,
-rockport-
post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by insahmniak View Post
To all who are chiming in saying, "That sounds like me! I don't want to be helped either"
I'm one of those people too and it made me laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post
A lot of great ideas put forth already. I have one of these kids, and I was one of these kids. I could feel my hackles rising with the descriptions of "back-handed" help. I've definitely experienced that. I also really resonated with much of what KarenWith4 said (as usual!). Some great advice in there.

On the issue of the music lyric sheet. I don't think you did anything particularly wrong in offering the sheet of music. Rather I suspect that your innocent offer of the paper served as a flashpoint for seething anger that your dd was already feeling about something else about the scenario. I wonder if she had hoped to be sitting apart from you, or had expected the rehearsal experience to be more glorious and independent than it had turned out to be, or had assumed she'd have the chance to shine by proving immediate, well-nigh magical mastery of the music, or who knows what.

I think the root of the problem isn't so much the help / corrections / reminders per se as it is the really intense attachment she has to particular outcomes.
What a glorious insight! Thank you. Unfortunately I don't have any insights of my own, I just wanted to say that since I have one of these children myself (and have similar struggles despite also abhorring help - DH who has worked in commercial kitchens has learnt the hard way not to say anything at all while I'm cooking) I'm bookmarking this to come back and read again (probably many times over)
post #23 of 34
I would have a serious talking to with her. This is unacceptable for her to behave like this. Tell her so. And let her know exactly what you do expect in the future and maybe even do a little play acting to show her exactly what you mean (she may balk at that, but most kids, once doing it, like to get goofy and end up having a little fun with the play acting).

She is only 7, she needs you to parent her. She will thank you in the end. And the two of you will be closer for it.
post #24 of 34
Thread Starter 
We had another rehearsal, so here I am to give an update.

After reading through your responses and giving it more thought, I realized that she values this activity as a time to go off and do things apart from me. So her look to me when I held up the paper was a fierce as it was probably because ... well, there I was. In her mind this was more about her flying solo.

Before rehearsal, she and I had lunch together and chatted about the upcoming event. She always chooses to sit apart from me in the rehearsal circle, so I began our conversation by telling her what I was thinking, and that I wanted her to know that sitting apart from me was perfectly fine with me, and that having time apart from me was perfectly fine with me. But that there might still be times that I would offer my assistance to her. This is out of fairness to the mom who is hosting and organizing the rehearsal. She has a big job already and this isn't a drop-off event. All the parents are involved and this helps the host not be so overwhelmed with keeping track of everything for every kid.

One of the things she offered during our conversation that has stuck with me: "It's nice to be with other kids without feeling scrutinized."

We talked about my tendency to try to help without asking first. I told her I'd work on that, but that I might need a reminder every now and then. So we brainstormed and came up with a non-verbal cue that would be friendly. She decided she would practice it. The need for it didn't come up in rehearsal this week, probably because we are both being more sensitive.

As suggested by a PP I took an online quiz about personality types. ENP describes her very well and having this articulated has helped us already. One of the hardest things for me is remembering that often times less is more. Talk less. Offer less. Do less.

Thank you all for your input. Each of your replies gave me something to think about. And our week together was better because of it.
post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by insahmniak View Post
But in the above scenario it would go something like: Would you like me to hold the paper up for you? Sounds pretty egg-shellish to me, but it's a sensitive approach.
This is how we have to respond to my son. He's always been that way, and it's just standard now. "Do you want me to open your drink?" "Do you need me to carry that?" Where DD is just happy as a lark that you gave her the drink, DS gets very upset if he thinks you're taking autonomy from him.
post #26 of 34
It is a really nice update. Glad you had a nice week - and here is hoping for many more!
post #27 of 34
You know she doesn't want unsolicitied help, so instead just say, let me know if you need anything and leave it alone. I'm glad you guys talked and came to an understanding.
post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
it is a really nice update. Glad you had a nice week - and here is hoping for many more!
ytt
post #29 of 34
Just a couple of thoughts I had when I initially read your post title:

1. Most adults do not take criticism very well, especially in public.

2. Prep her on the way to a public outing by letting her know you're available if she needs you, but you will not offer or give unsolicited help unless she asks. Make sure you follow through. She may very well feel offended when you give advice/assistance that she didn't ask for.

3. I agree with pp that giving you harsh looks could be a discipline issue. Make it a 2 way street- let her know you'll respect her wishes by backing off and she needs to respect you and not give you dirty looks.

HTH!
post #30 of 34
Just reading this thread now -- great news that it sounds like you're dealing with it in a way that works for both of you.

Just a few thoughts to add --

Perhaps you would benefit from reading some of Dr Maria Montessori's writings. Much of it is directed more towards infants and preschoolers, but the precepts are quite universal. It was in this reading that I learned to BACK OFF and not over-help my young daughter.

You're so right that it can be just automatic to step in and help. But this can be coming from a place of over-protectiveness... or from needing to BE A HELPER... rather than actually providing HELP THAT IS NEEDED, if you see the difference.

I was an excruciatingly independent kid. I hated it -- and STILL hate it -- if someone thinks I need help before I've asked for it (and I hated asking for it too). It feels like a personal insult, as others have said. So it's a bit surprising that I had to be TOLD this via Montessori's books lol...

Anyway. From my daughter's early toddlerhood, we backed off and just let her make her own mistakes. If she got frustrated, we'd still just let her deal with it -- if we intervened at all, it would only be in affirmation -- "that's very frustrating, isn't it." Then when she'd ASK for help, we'd help.

Doing this deliberately was very enlightening -- DH had even stronger instincts to jump in and help his precious little girl. Avoiding doing it on purpose, we really, really saw how CONSTANT our desire to intervene was, and really realized that probably wasn't the best idea! How would she ever learn to do anything, to figure things out, if we're always doing everything for her and explaining everything to her before she's even had a chance to think about it herself?

She's now 3.5 and shows every sign of being as maddeningly independent as I was (am). "I do it!!! I do it!!!" But we've learned to celebrate that instead of fight it. She is VERY capable, very confident, she works hard when she wants to do something and doesn't get frustrated easily, she thinks about things and works things out. We can honestly say that learning to back off in terms of "helping" when it's not needed is the #1 most important parenting lesson we've learned with her.

Now, when it comes to homeschooling a child like that... I would say just use it to your advantage rather than fighting it. Find curricula that are more child-led, more independent studies. Or at least, things that you would be doing WITH her, rather than teaching AT her, if you see what I mean. You may even be able to back off with curricula altogether, or to a large extent, if she's that driven. She's only 7, there's no need to do a LOT of academics at this age anyway.

For the reversed letters, and mistakes of that nature, as has been mentioned, you kind of have two other options. One is to just let it go. She's practicing. Practicing means it's not perfect yet. If she were able to do all her letters perfectly every time, she wouldn't have to practice them. As long as she's not getting WORSE, I wouldn't even fret about it, it's a normal part of the progression.

The second option is to make her aware of the mistakes, but in a more gentle and fun way. Let her know there are 3 errors on the page and challenge her to find them herself. I've found that this works MUCH better with my son, for instance -- who isn't the hyper-independent type like my daughter, but who is VERY sensitive to criticism. Or I don't even tell him there are mistakes -- I just say, okay, now look it over and see if you can find anything that needs fixing. If I tell him "fix this letter" I'm likely to get screaming and crying and shouts of "but it's already perfect!!!" If I say "see if you can find anything that needs fixing" he'll smile and say "whoops, my 's' is too big!"

As for the piano lessons, I will speak as a piano teacher.

Quote:
If I never offered her assistance unless she asked for it I can't imagine how that that would work. If she's practicing one phrase incorrectly for a whole week before her teacher catches it, that's a whole lot of time she's going to have to spend unlearning and then re-learning it.
Yup, it is, and that's part of the learning process! If you never offered assistance, it would work just the same as it does for the vast majority of piano students whose parents don't have the first CLUE about how to help their kids musically anyway! They do just fine.

In fact, if you're helping her too much with her practicing at home, it could give the teacher a false idea of where your daughter actually needs help and where she doesn't. If you've 'fixed' all her mistakes, the teacher might erroneously think your DD did it all herself, and think she's ready for something more advanced when really she isn't yet, or there could be games and exercises your DD would benefit from that the teacher won't bother with because she doesn't need them.

Teachers want to know where kids are struggling, because they have the knowledge of the best way to fix it in the long run. When a kid comes in with a particular kind of mistake, yes it takes "un-doing", but it REALLY helps me to see how their learning is progressing and what's going on in their minds. Seeing a consistent pattern of particular types of mistakes really lets me know what to focus on in their development.

Sometimes I would assign something specifically to see how a student managed with it -- what they were able to figure out and what they weren't. I need to see what the student's level of comprehension is -- not their mom's. A teacher doesn't expect something to be perfect after a week of practice... like the handwriting, if it was perfect already, there'd be no need for a teacher in the first place. You're paying a piano teacher, let them do what you're paying them for. If the teacher asks you to help at home in certain ways, then do that. Otherwise, let her make her own mistakes, because making mistakes AND YES, learning to FIX learned-in mistakes, is an important part of the process!

This has, again, been especially hard for me to do with my son, who is working on piano now at age 12. I give him lessons once in awhile where we do work on corrections, but when he's practicing, I leave him alone. It hurts my gut to hear him play wrong notes! But then something amazing happens -- he fixes them on his own! Sometimes not right away, sometimes it's days later. But 95% of the time he eventually figures it out himself. If he doesn't, then the most I try to do is give him hints. "You might want to have a close look at the third measure... just saying..." lol...

All the best!
post #31 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankgirl73 View Post
In fact, if you're helping her too much with her practicing at home, it could give the teacher a false idea of where your daughter actually needs help and where she doesn't. ... Teachers want to know where kids are struggling, because they have the knowledge of the best way to fix it in the long run.
This might be the case if the teacher is assuming the child is working independently and she's not. But in the case of Suzuki music, which I believe is what the original poster is involved in, the teacher is assuming that the parent and child are working together to solve problems. In order to find out where there were problems, the teacher, parent and child discuss together how the practicing has been going. When obvious things are left uncorrected, the teacher is likely to wonder what's wrong with the parent , or at least what is wrong with the parent-child working relationship at home. Though I imagine the OP has been open in discussing the challenges with their teacher, so there's an understanding there.

Miranda
post #32 of 34
I missed where she said it was Suzuki... But I did say "if the teacher asks you to do something" to do it. And that would be the case with Suzuki. But I'd also say that if the teacher wants the student to be constantly helped by the parent, then the teacher needs to make that clear to the student as well.

In my limited experience of Suzuki, the parent is doing less helping by the time a child is that age, but I have very little experience with Suzuki piano (only Suzuki violin). By that time, they're working on learning to read and working from the recordings and don't need as much hand-holding.
post #33 of 34
Well I started music in early elementary and played through college with rare public performances now, and my mother *never* corrected me. She didn't have an expert music background, but she did play in band through high school. I would have bristled at her helping, honestly, so I can understand that.
post #34 of 34
One of the hardest things for me is remembering that often times less is more. Talk less. Offer less. Do less.

If you'd like a different way of framing it, it struck me reading all the replies that it's also a question of trusting more. Trust her to blossom in her own time, to know what she needs, to ask for what she needs when she needs it.

Good luck. I'm glad you guys had a good week.

Heather
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