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do any of you NOT expect your child to say... - Page 4

post #61 of 256
Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.
post #62 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post
Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.
Not to everybody. I barely register those words from other people, most of the time. I do register the overall attitude.
post #63 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
i dont like that kind of formality between us. which is why i 'forbid' her by telling her i dont like hearing those words from her mouth and i really dont.

i want to hear from her heart, not from following the rules of society. in our family. i dont want politeness from her. i want authenticity from her. it doesnt mean she never uses the thank you and sorry and please around me. she does use them once in a while. but she doesnt have to use it around me.

but i get respect and gratitude from her. in other ways. sometimes she will just out of the blue, turn around and tell me mom i really appreciate it when you do <this> for me, or i really liked it when you did <this> for me yesterday. to me hearing one of those is more meaningful than hearing a thousand thank you's that week. kwim. i mean yeah i know she appreciates. sometimes its not even words. she does a little dance or comes and hugs me with her special 'thank you' smile. or just an emotional 'oh mo'om'.
These things are not mutually exclusive. My kids do both.
post #64 of 256
i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.

i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless . different cultural languages. i totally *get* what OP means.
post #65 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Not to everybody. I barely register those words from other people, most of the time. I do register the overall attitude.
We're sort of splitting hairs here. I'm not saying that people should say "thank you" with a rotten attitude, but they should say "thank you" or "I appreciate it" or something to acknowledge the person behind a nice action. I'm a piano teacher, and I can tell you that it makes a huge difference when my students say "thank you". When they just say "see you next week!" even if they have a good attitude they still seem ungrateful. I also used to work as a bar tender/waitress and when people didn't say "please" or "thank you" I felt looked down upon, even if they gave a great tip. I expect my kid to treat me the same way. She doesn't have to say "thank you" per se, but she needs to say something to acknowledge my action.
post #66 of 256
I have never forced dd to say these words and I don't make an issue of it one way or another. I have always modeled polite words and behavior though so dd does use manners and show appreciation frequently. I love to hear and see appreciation when it comes naturally, it really brightens my day when my child sees the hard work I did and appreciates it. I also appreciate it when my dd says she is sorry about something and behaves in a way that shows it. I value her true expression with the words and behaviors she chooses to have and try not to limit or force anything in her life.

I can understand not forcing manners because true gratitude goes beyond words, especially in families. I don't understand why you would forbid her to say certain words that don't have socially unacceptable meanings attached to them, aren't put downs, and don't have prejudice meanings. I think forbidding these words is an arbitrary and superficial thing. You can forbid simple words and force a child to bend over backwards trying to show appreciation or apology by the way you behave towards them when they don't so saying they can't say certain words means nothing really. I think that what matters is how you model and accept appreciation and remorse not what words you allow and don't allow, require or don't require.

I just read your second post and wanted to add that I don't think that it is possible to allow authentic expression if you are telling her what she can and can't say to express herself. I can't imagine telling my dd that it is fine (and authentic) to speak to me in a snotty tone, behave rudely towards me, tell me she hates me, etc... but that I would rather not have her say please, thank you, or sorry. I think that by discouraging things like manners and encouraging hateful speech and negative tones a parent can easily go down the path of destroying a child's loving authentic self and shaping her into a negative person who is no longer capable of expressing the positive aspects of their personality. I think that accepting negative emotions and helping children learn to express themselves no matter what the emotion is is an important thing, but that isn't something that I see as possible if you put limits on the positive emotions because you want your child to feel like they can express the negative ones.

I also don't feel like guiding children to appropriate ways of expressing themselves is a bad thing. For example: when a child is angry and says they hate you taking the I hate you message and not trying to help the child understand what they are really trying to say, not teaching them to voice what they are trying to say rather than relying only on the words "I hate you", is also discouraging true authentic expression because they aren't hating the parent (usually) they are mad and need help putting the anger and the reason for it into words.
post #67 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie View Post
i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.

i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless . different cultural languages. i totally *get* what OP means.
put the way you have, i understand it too. but, it does not sound like your mom discussed with you about your feelings and intent on the occassions that you did use these formal terms or specifically ask that you use other words. i am not sure she would have been thrilled to hear you say you hate her, either. or even thought of these things in terms of it being authentic or not. these are the parts of the OP's post, i think are confusing.
post #68 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post
We're sort of splitting hairs here. I'm not saying that people should say "thank you" with a rotten attitude, but they should say "thank you" or "I appreciate it" or something to acknowledge the person behind a nice action. I'm a piano teacher, and I can tell you that it makes a huge difference when my students say "thank you". When they just say "see you next week!" even if they have a good attitude they still seem ungrateful. I also used to work as a bar tender/waitress and when people didn't say "please" or "thank you" I felt looked down upon, even if they gave a great tip. I expect my kid to treat me the same way. She doesn't have to say "thank you" per se, but she needs to say something to acknowledge my action.
No, we are not splitting hairs. We simply react differently. I do not, personally, care about hearing the words. (Sorry if this sounds formal - my apostrophe is not working.)
post #69 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie View Post
i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.

i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless . different cultural languages. i totally *get* what OP means.
I love this- thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are so right when you say it is cultural and it makes sense that it is tied into North America's overly independent-minded society.

It's funny to me that people think that a child is destined to fail if they are not deliberately taught to say "please" and "thank-you" at home. Gratefulness and graciousness come from the heart and don't spontaneously occur just because the words are spoken. "Please" and "thank-you" often sound more like tools of selfishness to me (i.e I say this so now you must do that)
post #70 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
These things are not mutually exclusive. My kids do both.
I was just thinking the same thing. My kids will say "please pass the noodles" and "Mom, I'm so happy you made my favorite food!" all at the same meal.

On the one hand, I guess I get not demanding please and thank you and I'm sorry. In our house, when our kids demand something, we say "How can you ask me in a more loving way?" That might involve a please, a more pleasant tone, or a more gently worded request. Gratitude might be expressed by a thank you, a hug, or an "I love you". I'm OK with all of that. We don't demand apologies, but we do encourage them to "make peace" with one another, which again, can take many forms. I've heard please, thank you, and I'm sorry said too many times in a snotty way to really believe they have some kind of magic to them.

On the other hand, we model using those words in (what I hope is) a genuine way, and more often than not they mirror it back. When my kids throw their arms around me and say "Thank you, Mama, for taking me to the movies!" I don't lecture them on how they've chosen to express their gratitude. That seems rude to me. More often than not, I'll hug them back and thank them in return for having such a loving and thankful heart. What's more authentic than a child expressing love and gratitude? I just can't imagine correcting a child for that. It actually really makes my heart sad.
post #71 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
I say "please" "thank you" and "sorry" when appropriate to my son. I guess I do expect him to say it back-- it's the way we roll here. Politeness is for *everyone*, not just people outside the home. When I say it, I mean it, and I expect that of him, too.


post #72 of 256
I DO, however, think that home is a place where everyone should be able to let their hair down a bit. And that sometimes includes not being the most polite, respectful, pleasant person on the planet to our loved ones. But... when we aren't as nice as we could be, it's only right to make amends later - with an apology, an explanation, doing something special for the person(s) we weren't so nice to. That's "polite". Polite doesn't always mean please, thank you and I'm sorry.
post #73 of 256
OK, I would be curious as the the age of OP kids. I know my views on this have changed as my children have gotten older and the number of kids increased. My DD is 6 now and DS is 4 and I think there is something universal in Please, Thank-you, and Sorry that show respect for other people who can't understand your code. How we do things at home becomes the standard they bring into other interactions and if they can't do it at home, others may not understand the spirit behind their actions in a different setting.

As for the "I'm sorry" I think that is very age dependent. For my 6 yo it's HARD to say "sorry" because it is an acknowledgement of hurting someone else and is embarassing. I don't need her to do it in front of a crowd, I don't need to shame her into it and I don't need to threaten her, but when she has hurt my feelings I believe it's important for her to say and acknowledge that.

As my kids are older and I start to feel like a manager of needs and lives of a variety of people, I get frustrated and when I spend an afternoon cooking a meal there is nothing like "thanks mom (for making the effort of looking after us)" even if they haven't eaten a bite.
post #74 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlobe View Post
OK, I would be curious as the the age of OP kids. I know my views on this have changed as my children have gotten older and the number of kids increased. My DD is 6 now and DS is 4 and I think there is something universal in Please, Thank-you, and Sorry that show respect for other people who can't understand your code. How we do things at home becomes the standard they bring into other interactions and if they can't do it at home, others may not understand the spirit behind their actions in a different setting.

As for the "I'm sorry" I think that is very age dependent. For my 6 yo it's HARD to say "sorry" because it is an acknowledgement of hurting someone else and is embarassing. I don't need her to do it in front of a crowd, I don't need to shame her into it and I don't need to threaten her, but when she has hurt my feelings I believe it's important for her to say and acknowledge that.

As my kids are older and I start to feel like a manager of needs and lives of a variety of people, I get frustrated and when I spend an afternoon cooking a meal there is nothing like "thanks mom (for making the effort of looking after us)" even if they haven't eaten a bite.
I expect my 2 1/2 year old to be polite. This includes please, thank you, and I'm sorry. As a result of this, he will often be heard saying (unprompted), "Mommy, may I have some milk please? Thank you!" and "I'm sorry, Mommy! I didn't mean to do that." I say the same things to him. Maybe it's because I'm old fashioned, or maybe it's a southern thing, but I can't help but feel like if he's happy, loved, polite, and respectful, I must be doing something right.
post #75 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post
Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.



I'm currently working on teaching my 44 yo. husband to consistently say "please."

It would have been a lot easier if his mama had taught him, instead.
post #76 of 256
I completely agree with the OP.

I have actually explained in great details to my daughter (will be 6 next month) how please and thank you and such are expected as automatic responses that simply show that the people involved have some common social behaviour rather than showing true gratitude or appreciation. I showed her how people who do not conform to those rules come off as weird, impolite or even threatening.

Those expected behaviours have absolutely nothing to do with genuine expressions of gratitude even though they can sometimes share the same words. In short, routine use of please and thank you only shows how polite someone is, not how thankful they are.

Also, I think that kids should not be expected to actually feel those things for most things their parents do for them.
post #77 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
I completely agree with the OP.

I have actually explained in great details to my daughter (will be 6 next month) how please and thank you and such are expected as automatic responses that simply show that the people involved have some common social behaviour rather than showing true gratitude or appreciation. I showed her how people who do not conform to those rules come off as weird, impolite or even threatening.

Those expected behaviours have absolutely nothing to do with genuine expressions of gratitude even though they can sometimes share the same words. In short, routine use of please and thank you only shows how polite someone is, not how thankful they are.

Also, I think that kids should not be expected to actually feel those things for most things their parents do for them.
To me saying "please" "thank you" or whatever aren't necessarily expressions of gratitude. They are meant to say " hey I acknowledge your action", not an expression of the way I feel. "Please" means if you please, "Thank you" means thanks to you[/I], not "I feel grateful". If a child asks for milk please, they are acknowledging the fact that the other person is doing something for them. It doesn't have anything to do with the feelings of the child. I always say thank you to dh when he does something for me to let him know that I recognize his action. I tell him I love him to express the way I feel about him.
post #78 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post



I'm currently working on teaching my 44 yo. husband to consistently say "please."
why? why does he have to say please to you?

as a role model for kids? or is it something you want to hear?

why do you wanna hear that? do you feel if he doesnt use them he is not polite?

this discussion has become really interesting.

and to those who are asking why those terms - its two things. 1. they have become 'hallmark' terms. for instance 'sorry' as a blanket term. oops sorry i killed you. oops sorry i spilt water on your table. 2. also because those are 'social conditioning' terms. doesnt mean they are not authentic, but more often than not, i find my dd uses them as a reflex reaction. to others. doesnt mean sometimes they are not authentic, doesnt mean they are ALWAYS used as a 'reflex' reaction.

now here is the deal with 'hate'. hate was used by my dd when she was between 3 to 5. it was something between her and me. she never used that with anyone else. the reason why i didnt use the same principle with that word is because its not a social conditioning term.

she needed the place to say it. me as her mom knew she didnt mean it. she knew why she was using it. i knew why she was using it. more than intent to hurt, i saw it as a 'i need to be heard' intention.

the term hate today has translated into glares and 'mom you are not listening to me' or mom you are not getting what i am saying'.

that is why i did not focus on hate so much. or ask her to find other words. plus just the fact she was using it and i wasnt focusing on her hurting my feelings - doesnt mean she was going to grow up to be a child who hurts people.

and the reason why i celebrated inside was because she felt comfortable enough to show me her bad side too.

dang perhaps i am not communicating well and using words that will make it clear what i am trying to say here.
post #79 of 256
I understand what you are saying. i do believe that I can acknowledge the emotion causing my child to say hurtful things and be a safe place to have the conversation; however, I do feel it's important to say that it is not ok to say that she 'hates' me. As her parent it's important to tell her how it makes me feel... that it hurts my feelings. Her responses, no matter how authentic, do impact other people. I can understand what the true emotions are but others may not and part of what I feel my job is, is to help her understand that what she says and does is not just about her.
post #80 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
why? why does he have to say please to you?

as a role model for kids? or is it something you want to hear?

why do you wanna hear that? do you feel if he doesnt use them he is not polite?
Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manners. Every single one has had entitlement issues. It's not fair to set your child up for such an image, IMO.
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