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post #81 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie View Post
north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."
I don't think that you're saying that Indian mothers are less deserving of respect from their families than American mothers are... Are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandelionkid View Post
I love this- thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are so right when you say it is cultural and it makes sense that it is tied into North America's overly independent-minded society.
Overly? We western women have battled hard to gain the freedom to be independent minded. I think it's one reason the standard of living for women and girls in western society is so very much higher than it is elsewhere in the world.

That's only sort of a tangent.

Meemee, I get most of what you're saying about please and thank you. When my kids were little I didn't need to hear it, their happy faces were enough. I didn't miss it. I totally get what you mean about it sounding inauthentic sometimes. They aren't actually "magic" words.

But I think that can come back to bite a mom, particularly, in the butt.

And I'm going to have to try to articulate this better, later. I'm having a hard time focusing...
post #82 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by wookie View Post

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. Admittedly, I am not an insider to Indian culture (I do have a lot of Indian friends, but that's not the same), but my BFF in high school was Korean and all my friends were Korean practically and I was around their families enough to be "accepted". Perhaps they were not required to use American words of respect, but you had better believe that they WERE absolutely expected to show a level of deference and obligation to elder members of the family that went way beyond expecting someone to speak politely when asking for something.

Being biracial (white and asian), I keep a lot of (literally) mixed company. I've seen a lot of cultural clashes, because of the very strong sense of filial obligation that is "cultural" amongst first-gen or immigrant asian families vs. the more relaxed over the lifespan Americanized folks.

I am all for exploring and respecting different cultures...but you can't boil it down to a nugget and then extrapolate. I don't think it's at all accurate to imply that there is not just as much parental-to-child expectation of respect and deference on the asian side. I think perhaps there is more, at least in my observation. Even if no one ever says please or thank you.

IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.
post #83 of 256
Please often sounds overly formal and formulaic in a familiar context. We rarely use it at home, except when tired and um formal because voice tone isn't up to expressing the level of warmth felt.

Littler kids sometime use it since they have less control over their inflections.

I love to say thank you. We say it alot here.

I didn't read all the replies, but I don't give a tinker's dam really whether other kids say please and thank you to me. I like hanging out with kids generally though and don't expect them to be overwhelmingly grateful for doing stuff for them.
post #84 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post
Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manner.
see this is the part i am trying to understand.

why?

why does it make you so mad?

because its common courtesy? i can understand that.

but you. i am talking about you. why does it make you so mad.

its not children that make me mad. i am just the opposite of you. its other elders who make children say it. every single time. sometimes the child is immersed in something they are doing and dont use it. they dont have to say it every single time.

really i dont care if a child says ty, please or sorry to me. really. however i understand that's just me. however i really havent met any child who never used those words.

what makes me mad is that i hear it from all children, but i dont hear it from adults. i have worked at so many places and there is no appreciation of the workers. not all but the majority.

i dont even work to say thank you or good job all the time. but man it would be soooooooooooooooooo good if they once in a while pointed out something specific and said some words of appreciation.

its interesting. i dont really expect manners. from adults or children. but once in a while if someone said how much they appreciate or even a genuine thank you - that is more meaningful to me than a thousand thank yous.

however with strangers i can understand wanting manners.

but with family or friends. i know my friend is grateful that i could give her a ride. she doesnt have to say thank you to me. but i dont tell her that. instead i say that to my kid.

in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned.
post #85 of 256
I don't ask my (very young, very verbal) daughter to say that she's sorry because she's a toddler - I'd be requiring her to lie! She has, however, picked up several "manners" sorts of phrases simply from hearing them used. My absolute favorite is when she wants to get by you and you are in the way -- she'll start with "podden me!" and if that fails, she'll go to "podden me! outta de way peez!" (she's only 21 months so 'r' and 'l' still haven't shown up yet).
post #86 of 256
Thread Starter 
awwwwwwwwwwwww that is the cutest thing ever. awwwww around 2 years old is my favourite age. actually until 2. after that they lose that 'something' - babyness?
post #87 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiobhanAoife View Post
I don't ask my (very young, very verbal) daughter to say that she's sorry because she's a toddler - I'd be requiring her to lie! She has, however, picked up several "manners" sorts of phrases simply from hearing them used. My absolute favorite is when she wants to get by you and you are in the way -- she'll start with "podden me!" and if that fails, she'll go to "podden me! outta de way peez!" (she's only 21 months so 'r' and 'l' still haven't shown up yet).
ADORABLE!
post #88 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. Admittedly, I am not an insider to Indian culture (I do have a lot of Indian friends, but that's not the same), but my BFF in high school was Korean and all my friends were Korean practically and I was around their families enough to be "accepted". Perhaps they were not required to use American words of respect, but you had better believe that they WERE absolutely expected to show a level of deference and obligation to elder members of the family that went way beyond expecting someone to speak politely when asking for something.

Being biracial (white and asian), I keep a lot of (literally) mixed company. I've seen a lot of cultural clashes, because of the very strong sense of filial obligation that is "cultural" amongst first-gen or immigrant asian families vs. the more relaxed over the lifespan Americanized folks.

I am all for exploring and respecting different cultures...but you can't boil it down to a nugget and then extrapolate. I don't think it's at all accurate to imply that there is not just as much parental-to-child expectation of respect and deference on the asian side. I think perhaps there is more, at least in my observation. Even if no one ever says please or thank you.

IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.
:
post #89 of 256
Umm yes we most certainly do expect "Please" and "Thank you" and "Sorry" from our kids, just as they can expect it from us.

Manners are quite important in our house, and we all deserve respect from each other as much as anyone outside the house and family. Look, I'm not holding a blushing, squirming, embarrassed 2 year old there forcing him to say thanks to the lady in the store that said he was cute or anything, but when and where it's appropriate, they are "encouraged" to say it.

I cringe when I hear or see kids say things like "Give me juice!" or "Move!" to their parents.

These are small common courtesies that mean a lot to most people in day to day life, and I feel proud when my son says "Thank you" unprompted.

"in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned."

Sorry but I think this is a tad dramatic;, it's just "Thank You", not brainwashing cult or anything, sigh.
post #90 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. ...........
IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.
I definitely agree too. The amount of deference shown to parents, or even the most distant relations astounds my North American self. And God help my friends if they do not, the drama that will unfold would be on a nuclear scale. Like on the food issue, if you go to a family party in several Asian cultures that I know of and you don't eat, you're disrespectful. You don't take off your shoes, you're disrespectful. You don't drive your parents 100KM to their destination and back home at 11pm, despite the fact that you're exhausted and just returned from taking care of their relatives 100KM in that direction, you're disrespectful. It's not even a question! If you don't address someone by the proper honourific, which isn't necessarily Mr. or Mrs., but Auntie or Uncle, you're disrespectful. And it's not just a "Oh that kid is so rude!" it's an "OMG, can you believe that? What kind of family is that? This is going to be a mark!"

So while manners in terms of p's and q's might not be involved, there is a whole set of cultural etiquette and fallout from lack of observation of that etiquette that would probably make most people's heads spin.
post #91 of 256
We don't force but we use them with our kids and usually dd1 will say please and thank you. Actually I do sometimes ask her to say please. I think it is important that she is treated with respect but also that she treats others with it and for us this begins in the home. So if she says "I want water!" I will say "Thats great, but how do we ask for something?" or "Could you ask me in a more polite manner please?".

I don't nor understand how you can, force someone to say sorry. I think my dd1 is only just starting to grasp sorry, but we do always say it to her.
post #92 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
see this is the part i am trying to understand.

why?

why does it make you so mad?

because its common courtesy? i can understand that.

but you. i am talking about you. why does it make you so mad.

its not children that make me mad. i am just the opposite of you. its other elders who make children say it. every single time. sometimes the child is immersed in something they are doing and dont use it. they dont have to say it every single time.

really i dont care if a child says ty, please or sorry to me. really. however i understand that's just me. however i really havent met any child who never used those words.

what makes me mad is that i hear it from all children, but i dont hear it from adults. i have worked at so many places and there is no appreciation of the workers. not all but the majority.

i dont even work to say thank you or good job all the time. but man it would be soooooooooooooooooo good if they once in a while pointed out something specific and said some words of appreciation.

its interesting. i dont really expect manners. from adults or children. but once in a while if someone said how much they appreciate or even a genuine thank you - that is more meaningful to me than a thousand thank yous.

however with strangers i can understand wanting manners.

but with family or friends. i know my friend is grateful that i could give her a ride. she doesnt have to say thank you to me. but i dont tell her that. instead i say that to my kid.

in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned.
The reason I like to hear please and TY is because it's less demanding. What I hear you saying is that child should only acknowledge a person's kindness when they are struck with gratitude or when it is convenient for them. In adults that's called a sense of entitlement. I'm not comfortable with the idea that we should only say "thanks" when we are really and truly appreciative. I say thank you to make other people feel good, not because I am overwhelmed with gratitude on a daily basis. I'm not overwhelmed with gratitude when I say thank you to a waitress, or a grocery bagger, or any number of the people who help me throughout the day. I am, however, conscious of the fact that they are people and have feelings and should be acknowledged for their work. It has nothing to do with me...it has to do with them. For example imagine if you are a barista at a coffee shop, and there are two customers, A and B. A comes in daily to get a cup of coffee. He knows that the barista will give him coffee as long as he pays. Buying coffe is routine for customer A. Now let's say that customer B only drinks coffee at home but realizes one morning that she ran out. Customer B now has a serious headache and drags herself to the coffee shop, knowing that that coffee will cure her headache. When the barista gives her coffe she is filled with gratitude and tells him he is the best and says thank you over and over again. Now in my mind the barista deserves to be thanked by both customer A and B, eventhough at that moment customer B is the one who really feels gratitude. Afterall the barista does the same thing for both of them, it's just that B wants the coffee more. I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.
post #93 of 256
Quote:
I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.
post #94 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
why? why does he have to say please to you?
For example,

"Do something with the strawberries before they rot" is a command.

"Please do something with the strawberries before they rot" is a request.


I'm tired of being commanded to do things by the person who is supposed to be my equal partner. That's why I'm insisting on please from my dh.
post #95 of 256
Yes, as scottishmommy said, THANK YOU and PLEASE are for other people.

I can show true delight and excitement at a gift I receive from my husband and he very well may be content with the fact that I am showing my pleasure and "thanks" by my heartfelt reaction to it. But words like "I love it!" show MY love for an object. "I wanted this so much!" show MY desire for an object. "I can't believe you got this!" show MY amazement that I was remembered. "This means so much to me!" expresses MY delight, again, at an OBJECT.

But "Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, for this wonderful, amazing, awesome gift!" is telling my husband I thank YOU for this, and I thank YOU for thinking of me.

In most all other expressions, I hadn't expressed any thanks to HIM, as a person. But Thank You does just that.
post #96 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post
The reason I like to hear please and TY is because it's less demanding. What I hear you saying is that child should only acknowledge a person's kindness when they are struck with gratitude or when it is convenient for them. In adults that's called a sense of entitlement. I'm not comfortable with the idea that we should only say "thanks" when we are really and truly appreciative. I say thank you to make other people feel good, not because I am overwhelmed with gratitude on a daily basis. I'm not overwhelmed with gratitude when I say thank you to a waitress, or a grocery bagger, or any number of the people who help me throughout the day. I am, however, conscious of the fact that they are people and have feelings and should be acknowledged for their work. It has nothing to do with me...it has to do with them. For example imagine if you are a barista at a coffee shop, and there are two customers, A and B. A comes in daily to get a cup of coffee. He knows that the barista will give him coffee as long as he pays. Buying coffe is routine for customer A. Now let's say that customer B only drinks coffee at home but realizes one morning that she ran out. Customer B now has a serious headache and drags herself to the coffee shop, knowing that that coffee will cure her headache. When the barista gives her coffe she is filled with gratitude and tells him he is the best and says thank you over and over again. Now in my mind the barista deserves to be thanked by both customer A and B, eventhough at that moment customer B is the one who really feels gratitude. Afterall the barista does the same thing for both of them, it's just that B wants the coffee more. I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.
I was trying to type up something that explains how I felt, and couldn't figure out how to say it. But I think you said it perfectly. Saying please and thank you isn't about me, it's about the other person.

When out in public, I say please and thank you all the time. In most of these cases, I am not overwhelmed with gratitude. In many of these cases, to be perfectly honest, I don't even really care. The person standing next to the elevator buttons who asks me what floor? I don't particularly care. But he did a nice thing in offering to press the button and saying thank you acknowledges that. The person right in front of me who gives the door an extra little push open so that if sort of hurry up a bit I'll catch it? Hardly went out of his way, and I'm perfectly able to open my own door. But I don't care how wrapped up either of us are in what we're doing: it's still a basic social grace to notice other people and acknowledge them. He did this by pushing the door, I did this by grabbing it and thanking him.

If I didn't say thank you in either of those cases, it does smack of entitlement. I agree with that too.

Another way to look at it is in terms of giving a gift. I think we've all received gifts that we don't like. We still say thank you when dotty old Great Aunt Ethel sends us a picture her dog drew: no matter the intentions or the gift it would be very rude not to. So I don't see how it isn't rude to not say thank you for a smaller "gift": holding a door open or pressing an elevator button or the barrista giving you your cup of coffee.
post #97 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
where they burst out saying TY when they dont really want to say it, just because an adult wants to hear it.

This makes it seem like you don't want your child to care about other peoples feelings. Do you think adults don't have feelings? Is it wrong for an adult to want to be acknowledged because they did something nice for your kid? Part of social conditioning is to help children learn empathy. We are an incredibly self centered species, we don't need to reinforce that unfortunate trait in our children.
post #98 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post
Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manners. Every single one has had entitlement issues. It's not fair to set your child up for such an image, IMO.
Technically, children are entitled to the things adult do for them...
post #99 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
Technically, children are entitled to the things adult do for them...
Children are entitled to food, shelter, clothing and education. Everything else is a gift they should acknowledge on some level.
post #100 of 256
I have skimmed the responses so far.. I'm having a hard time phrasing this so that I don't sound like a crazy and demanding Miss Manners, so bear with me!
We do sign with my pre-verbal 18 month old. He picked up a few nouns (water, food, banana, shoes.. etc) and I was content to have him do those signs or point to what he wanted. After a few weeks of that, I felt like we were both ready for the next step, and I showed him the sign for please. It makes me feel a little less like I'm being ordered around, and I think its important to lay the foundation for asking politely for what you would like. I would have a hard time with an adult grunting a command at me with no pleasantries like please, and I have a hard time with children who do the same. I work at a preschool and the kids all preface their requests with a "please" most of the time. I also try to be mindful of my own phrasing and remembering to say please, thank you and sorry to children because I think the modeling is so important.

and ITA with the PP who said that she likes to thank the bag boy at the grocery store, the barista at the coffee place, whoever, because its just plain nice to acknowledge the person who i feel like most people just ignore. Its just so easy to do.. I feel like basic manners (please, thank you, sorry/excuse me) just set the tone for the interaction. Its easy enough to lay the foundation for a polite interaction, so why not just do it?

I think it is rude when you are in traffic and you let someone in or let someone cross the road and they don't wave or somehow express gratitude for the action. Otherwise it does feel like they think they are entitled.
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