No Cry Sleep Solution Support Thread - Page 2

[akayerich]

I'll join you ladies, too. I just read NCSS for Toddlers and Preschoolers. I have an almost 18 month DS who can't fall asleep without major help from us. Untill about 15 months I'd nurse him to sleep, but at some point he stopped getting sleepy when nursing. So then DH started holding/rocking him while listening to quiet music, and that worked really well for a while. But now, it takes sometimes 2ish hours of rocking/holding/etc, and it just seems to be getting more and more out of control. Then, once he's asleep, he usually wakes up 1-2 times per night, which is acceptable as long as he goes back to sleep easily. But sometimes it takes a few hours to get him back to sleep.

After reading the book, I've identified some of our problems. Too late of a bedtime, causing a second wind. Inconsistant bedtimes, naptimes, and wake-up times. Too much activity and bright light late in the day. Sticking with a routine that just doesn't work for us- we were doing a bath as part of the routine, but I realized that the bath just seems to refresh his energy instead of relax him. I think his waking at night is sometimes because he pees and that wakes him up. We've been ECing for a few months now, so he's very aware of his urination now and loves using the potty and hates being in a wet diaper now.

Originally Posted by preciousstone

can I join? I haven't read thru the thread. but i'm a new mama to a 6mth old who just transitioned to the crib. I have a question. When I put my baby in the crib when he's tired he's pretty rowdy and rambunctious; he just crawls around, tries to climb the rails and fusses. If I try to walk away he breaks out into a wail. The only way he'll go to sleep is if he's fully asleep in my arms or if I wear him down in his ergo carrier or if I nurse him down (which I am eliminating with Pantley Pull Off). I've tried singing and rocking in the chair and baths at night but ultimately he's has to be asleep before I can lay him in the crib. So how do I get him to be relaxed enough to lay sleepy in his crib so he can fall asleep in it on his own.

I am starting my sleep log tonight.

There's something in the toddler/preschooler book called the Pantley Dance, which is supposed to help with your situation. Does she have that in the infant version? If not, let me know and I can describe it for you. We have a similar problem with our older baby and are probably going to try using that method.

[Okapi]

We've been doing pretty well here! Yesterday I took DD downtown again (after waking up on time, lol), and after all the walking around, we didn't even make it to the museum. She wanted to go "in the ellagator" (take the elevator in the parking garage to the car) and she was asleep inside of 10 minutes (by 11). She did wake up from her nap early (diaper leak) but I had a soccer game in the evening, and she went to sleep just fine for DH (that is huge for us - we've always had trouble before when DH had to be the one to get her down)!

Only downside - yesterday & the day before she was up at 5:20 & 5, respectively. That just feels so early to me. Today we got up to the alarm, though (didn't want to - I was exhausted, and that was after going to sleep before 9:30!) I'm interested to see how today goes. She has a gym class at 10:45 (usual one is at 9:15), so it won't be over until 11:30. Hopefully she'll fall asleep on the way home again, if not, it may end up being a no-nap day. But I'm finding I can handle those a little better when she's going to sleep earlier.

I will say, part of me questions planning our whole day around her sleep (and dinner is suffering, I can't seem to get it done if I try to get her outside in the afternoon, so we've been doing leftovers/extra quick stuff), but honestly, it is so much less stressful for me then spending 4-5 hours sitting in the rocking chair and trying to keep my cool while she refuses to sleep! And I'm sure that as we get into a routine, it will be easier/less intrusive. I think I'm going to try to get her out right after her nap, then hang out at home late afternoon, rather then hanging out after the nap & running to the park later. Probably not today, though, with the late class.

[Geigerin]

Ooh! I'd love to join! I'm picking up my reserved copy at the library today. Maddy is 4 1/2 months, and I do still nurse on demand, but she is currently only sleeping around 6-8 hours at night and only naps occasionally. I need help!

Will report back tomorrow.

[preciousstone]

Originally Posted by akayerich

There's something in the toddler/preschooler book called the Pantley Dance, which is supposed to help with your situation. Does she have that in the infant version? If not, let me know and I can describe it for you. We have a similar problem with our older baby and are probably going to try using that method.

No I haven't seen anything like that. What is the pantley dance? and one more question - for anyone... or maybe this is what the pantley dance is supposed to cover... but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.

thanks.

[akayerich]

Originally Posted by preciousstone

No I haven't seen anything like that. What is the pantley dance? and one more question - for anyone... or maybe this is what the pantley dance is supposed to cover... but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.

thanks.

I just went looking for it again and realized its in the No Cry Nap Solution. Yes, we checked out that one too- we need all the help we can get This is going to be long- I'm trying to paraphrase.

Anyway, it's a way of kinda weaning your baby from needing to be held to fall asleep. Basically, first you hold him as usual and let him get really sleepy. For the first few times, wait until he's almost ready to drift off.

Then start humming softly, shushing, and jiggling/rocking him for a few minutes. Then stop and be very still for a few minutes. Then go back to the humming/shushing and jiggling/rocking. Keep alternating the movement/sound and the quiet/stillness for a bit and keep doing it while you carry him to his bed.

As a side note, she says some babies do better if you keep humming the whole time and alternate the movement and the stillness. I guess you should just experiment and see what works best. Also, use the same song or sush each time you put him to sleep so he recognizes it.

Once you get to the bed, it's time to put him down. Do this by first letting his feet touch the mattress, then pause. Then slowly move the rest of his body down on to the mattress. Keep humming while you're doing it. After he's laying down, put your free hand on his chest and then pull the other hand out from under him. While still humming, alternate patting him on his chest or jiggling him a little with being still. Then remove your hand and gradually decrease the volume of your humming. If he wakes up later, try just putting your hand on him and patting him and humming the same song to see if it settles him.

The idea is that you can gradually start the "Dance" earlier and earlier, before he's almost completely asleep. Pantley says eventually you can even start the routine when he's still wide awake, and he will associate it with sleeping and go to sleep much easier.

I think she intended this method to be for babies who will only sleep while being held, not just babies who can't be put down until they're asleep. But I can see it maybe working for either situation. I haven't tried it yet, though.

[Okapi]

Originally Posted by preciousstone

but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.
thanks.

I read somewhere (Dr Sears, maybe) that a good test is to lift their arm an inch or so and drop it. If your LO doesn't stir, they're probably deep enough asleep to be put down. We tried it, and it worked most of the time. Plus, if I tried it and she wasn't quite asleep, it didn't usually wake her up all the way.

[hrsmom]

Originally Posted by bizzylizzy

Soooo just getting the logging going tonight. Had a set back with the heat wave her in the PNW...had to sleep in the guest room in the basement for a few days and things were too weird down there to log properly.

I'm chewing on how I feel about the sucking to sleep association. My baby is a pacifier user. I always nurse him down but replace with the pacifier to sleep. It is such a good soothing agent (as is nursing) I'm really unhappy to have to give it up.

Any thoughts out there?

The way I understood it, having them fall asleep with a pacifier is only a problem if they fully wake up and notice it's not there and need you to put it back in. So I'd try it and see. If it's a problem, then you'll have your answer. Hope for the best!!!

[hrsmom]

Originally Posted by NSmomtobe

Success!

Although he is probably only down for a nap (it was another bad napping day) and will probably be up in less than an hour...

I'm glad you had success! I actually gave up trying to have a routine because it was frustrating to me that my kiddo didn't know she was supposed to fall asleep at the end of it, like you said in your previous post. I probably gave up too soon! (ETA) Sleep deprivation and infinite patience do not necessarily go together! I just went back to having her go to bed when she was ready, and that was OK for us.

[NSmomtobe]

I'm back, with only hit and miss successes.

bizzylizzy - I also have an very active cosleeper, and it is one of the reasons I knew something had to change. Not only was it hard for me to sleep while being kicked constantly, but I was worried about him falling out of bed. We side-carred the crib so that now he is contained on 3 sides by bars and one side by me to eliminate my fear of him falling (and not a moment too soon--he is EVERYWHERE in that crib) and I can nurse him on the edge of the crib and then move away from him and not have to deal with his thrashing.

preciousstone - The side-car is my solution for getting him used to the crib because before we did that, he would never sleep in the crib. However, I still haven't figured out how to get him to sleep there without nursing him to sleep or taking him out of the mei tai fully asleep. I am trying to convince myself it is only a matter of time though. Soon we will have to put up the 4th wall because the other 3 will not be enough to hold him. He is 6 months and thrashes around as you described as well.

Okapi, I also have a very hard time planning my day around his sleep. I also have a hard time getting him to sleep when I have planned for him to sleep, so it sounds like you are ahead there.

akayerich - Thank you for describing the Pantley Dance. I have both problems--he needs to be held during naps and I cannot transfer him to the crib when he is asleep. I tried to do something similar last night when he woke up 15 min after I had last nursed him to sleep so I didn't want to nurse him again. I managed to rock him to sleep, but then I couldn't put him down without him screaming, so I ended up nursing him in the end anyway. But I really do need to expand my repertoire.

hrsmom - Well, that was the only time the bedtime routine really worked. However, I have found that after I finish reading to him and nursing him, if I let him play in his crib until he gets overtired and fussy (about 30 min), I can usually nurse him to sleep at that point.

[mama09]

Hello! So glad to have found this, and would love to join in. I just finished reading the NCSS tonite, after 5 months of reading it here and there in desperate times.

Many previous posts speak to issues we're having, so I'll just try to touch on them. First-- the good news! Re-reading (and finishing) the book made me realize how much progress we have made without really trying very hard! My son is now 10 months old, and it's hard to remember what was making me
nuts 5 months ago... but I think it was him always wanting my nipple in his mouth all night, and the aches and pains in my body from sleeping in contorted positions. And the hours it took to get him really asleep. I did adopt the Pantley Pull-off, and started a bedtime routine, and was feeling lame that that was about all I did. But now I can see that the PPO has eliminated his constant suckling, for a long while now. He does roll over often and sleeps in his own space (we co-sleep in a queen bed, so it is a bit tight.) The bedtime routine helped a lot, too. We timed it to begin right after our dinner (we eat at 6pm, then bathe him, maybe read if he's alert, and then hopefully to bed around 7-7:30.)

Now that he's older, we have a new set of challenges, of course. Reading the book again, I clarified for myself that the night wakings are OK with me, as he doesn't really wake me up. I just nurse him for a brief moment, and he's back asleep. Unless he's teething or has gas, of course...

My main issues these days are:
**DS needs me and my nipple for every waking in the hours between his bedtime and mine. I sometimes stay up til midnite, but get frustrated nursing him every 45 minutes (or more often if some noise wakes him). Because I have set up the nursing to sleep habit, I haven't asked hubby to help. That can cause resentment when my whole evening is about getting DS back to sleep.

**Wondering if we need to start bedtime even earlier, as for several weeks seems like DS is manic at bedtime, and it can take hours to calm him. I think he misses his sleepy window while we are eating dinner, and is into his 2nd and 3rd wind with these long summer days (and sometimes fewer naps, as we are out and about more). I'm afraid I'll never get to eat dinner again if I try to start putting him down before dinner.

**Trying to teach DS to sleep in a pack n play for naps, so he is safe and I can move around. He has napped in my lap for much of his life, and then in our bed (before he could roll), and now often in the car as I time our outings for his nap time. But when I'm home, I need to start being able to get things done while he's sleeping, and he is too active to be in our bed alone. It has been a luxury to let him sleep in my lap, and I admit I'm reluctant to let life take over again, but really I need to shower and make baby food and maybe even (gasp) make a phone call now and then. Not to mention make some money. The lowering all the way into the pack n play (we don't have a crib and are living in a small yurt for the summer) nearly always wakes DS, and if I try it 2-3 times in one nap, he'll wake completely and skip the nap. Frustrating. I'm trying to practice, but in the end, I usually wish I'd just let him sleep in my lap.

**Wondering if it's possible to teach him to put himself back to sleep when he startles during naps or in the early evening sleep hours, while still being OK with nursing him in the night. Kind of confusing signals, I guess.

Always wanting the short term gain of sleep NOW, I have been very reluctant to enact the long-term plan outlined in the NCSS. So far, DS will not EVER be soothed by patting or keywords. Nipple only, or he ramps up and wakes.

Any further tips on lowering into pack n play (which seems different than the hip height of a crib), or real-life success stories of soothing to sleep without the nipple are very welcome!

Thanks for reading this LOOOOONG post! I've been needing input on this!

[akayerich]

So we've been doing our new routine and earlier bedtime for a week, and already it seems to be working. DS has been going to sleep in less than 1/2 hour. Now our problem is that he's waking up more at night and wanting to play instead of just going back to sleep with our help. The last 2 nights have been terrible. This pattern started at the same time we started the early bedtime, so I'm starting to think maybe bedtime has been a little *too* early. Maybe he wakes up and thinks he just took a late nap, so he's ready to play. So tonight we did bedtime a 1/2 hour later. I guess we'll see what happens.

mama09-
It's probably still a little early for this at 10 months, but if you're still having the same issues when he's over a year old, you might try night-weaning by Dr. Jay Gordon's method. With his method, you pick certain hours that you want him to not breastfeed. I guess for most people, the idea is to wean him during the hours that you most want to sleep, but you could always choose the hours that he's in bed but you're still awake. He doesn't recommend trying it before baby is at least a year old, though. We did it at 15 months and it worked really well. Here's a link you can read about it, if you don't already know. http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

The only other thought I had for you was that if you suspect that he needs an earlier bedtime, you should try it. Maybe do dinner a little earlier if you can. We were having major issues getting DS to go to sleep and like I said above, we started doing a routine and putting him to bed much earlier and it's been working really well. Except for the night waking part, but we're working on that!

[Okapi]

Originally Posted by akayerich

Now our problem is that he's waking up more at night and wanting to play instead of just going back to sleep with our help. The last 2 nights have been terrible. This pattern started at the same time we started the early bedtime, so I'm starting to think maybe bedtime has been a little *too* early.

My DD also did the the first 3 or 4 nights. Not so much the playing around, but she woke up enough to wake me up probably 6+ times, which for her is unusual (esp if she's in the bed w/ me). Usually she wakes up once a night, I move her into bed w/ me, and she sleeps the rest of the night. We just stuck w/ the schedule and within a couple of days, she was back to the 1 wake/night.

Night time has still be going pretty well. The couple times it hasn't gone well were times *we* (in retrospect) made it harder for her. One night DH got home late, so dinner was late, so even though I knew she was tired, I didn't start bedtime right away (it was right as dinner was ready to be served). I thought (hoped) that if we just kept her calm it would be OK, but she still managed to get that 2nd wind. Another night, DH took her to the store with him (early enough that we didn't think it would interfere). She was clearly tired when he brought her in, but I didn't see that part. I just saw them walking in and DH saying "I told her she could have her lollipop." So needless to say, that night did not go well.

The trouble we're having is with naps. I used to give her up to 2 hours to fall asleep for her nap (if I could tell she was really tired), but we've decided to do no longer then an hour, and she often is just not falling asleep in that time. It's like she knows that she's not going to have to hold out as long, so she's more determined to power through, KWIM? I still haven't read the section on more specific ideas for different problems, though, and I'm pretty sure there was a nap section in there. Will have to check that out today!

Although, thinking about it, the rain we had recently didn't help (wasn't getting her out as much) and when I have gotten her out, it may just not have been early enough. The few days we've gotten up and gone right out, it worked great. The trouble is getting her on board with that! She will often say she wants to go out, but then actually getting her dressed/ready can be a long process, unless there's something she is really excited about. Today we have a makeup for her Little Gym class which isn't until 10:45 (her usual is a lot earlier), so I think I'm going to go into it assuming she won't be getting a nap today (she didn't last time she did this class).

Once we have her schedule worked out, I want to work on getting her to fall asleep without me right there.

[bizzylizzy]

So we have finally established a good going to sleep routine and he is going to sleep easily and staying soundly asleep until he's hungry, wakes, nurses and then easily goes back to a deep sleep until about 2. Last night i was nursing him every 1/2 hour between 2:30 and 4:30!!! I'm trying to institute the "night diaper". We use Fuzzy Bunz and I added an extra liner...this has worked well without any leaks for the past few nights but last night by 3am he'd breached the dam. I thought that would explain the thrashing but even after changing him he was still sleepy but thrashing. Ideas? For the night diapering too. What do you all do. If he wasn't nursing so much he'd obviously stay drier.

I was successfully able to move him to the cosleeper for a two naps yesterday. I'm trying to slowly get him used to it. Has anyone else noticed how awfully thin the mattress is on that thing? After sleeping in the family bed with a real mattress I kinda doubt he's super excited to sleep on a piece of cardboard. I need him to like the cosleeper so I don't have to deal with the thrashing every night!

We aren't instituting our "big" plan until he's officially 4 months and after we have some visitors leave. But the small things I've done....making the room dark, instituting a blankey for sleeping, and routine are all good things. It's those early morning wakings and thrashings that have got to go!

[akayerich]

Okapi-
Thanks for the encouragement by telling me that you had the same problem with more frequent waking the first few nights of the new earlier routine. It seems like my DS will get better now, too. Last night was much better than the night before. He still woke up more than he used to, but at least he was super-easy to put back to sleep.

It's funny, our problem seems to be changing to naps now, too. We've NEVER had a problem with naps. But yesteday and today he's flat out refused to go to sleep for his one nap. Weird. I'm thinking his body is just working out the kinks and getting used to the new sleep habits, and hopefully things will settle down soon.
Our next big thing will also be teaching him to sleep without being rocked by DH till he's completely asleep. I think that step will be much harder.

Bizzylizzy-
Do you ever use wool covers? I've found that the only thing that works for us at night is a fitted diaper with a heavy-duty doubler (we use one with a fleece stay-dry liner) and an Aristocrat wool cover. We never have leaks, even on his wettest nights. My problem with the whole night-diapering thing is that I'm afraid that even though he doesn't leak, the wet diaper keeps him awake, but if I change him, that seems to wake him up even more.

I had the same issue with the cosleeper mattress. I couldn't believe how plasticy and thin it was. I ended up making something that was a lot softer but still firm enough for a small baby. I just got a piece of wood that was the right size and wrapped it in cotton batting untill it seemed thick and soft enough and then wrapped some wool felt around that. You could probably use any kind of fabric for the outer layer, I just happened to have the wool on hand and liked that it would be kind of waterproof. I made sure the outer layer was taut so it would stay firm. It worked well and seemed comfy enough untill he got bigger and seemed to need a real mattress.