circ horror stories

[mommyfied]

I have a 2.5 wk old that I am refusing to circ, although DH adamantly wants it done. (why? main reasons are bonding/how it looks , but he also brings up cleanliness)

DH went to the dentist today and the hygienist and the dentist both gave him horror stories of boys who weren't circ'd and then were circ'd later.

One had an infection at age 5 so they circ'd him and his 1 year old brother (for good measure). The 5 year old still remembers going to the doctor and getting his penis 'burned'. I don't even know what the other story was.

Seriously... how often does this happen? I told him we don't know if the boy was forcibly retracted and developed problems because of that. Also, who knows if the infection could have been treated with abx vs. removing the foreskin?

And aren't boys' genitals easier to keep clean than girls? We have two girls and while they have never had any infections they of course they can't go more than a day without a bath without getting stinky or sore. He uses that as one more reason to circ.

Then I come here and see the problems but I also know I need to balance that with the thread about everyone who doesn't have problems. However, I still worry about the possibility that my little boy is one of those who has problems and I will have zero support from my husband and it will be an "I told you so" situation, even if it is treatable.

I am not going to give in, so I guess I'm just looking for support and experiences of others in similar situations. This is so frustrating.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

The only true reasons for circ are:
Frostbite
Gangrene
Cancer
Irreparable damage
Some diabetics can run into issues as well because of their problems with healing once hurt.

As you can imagine each one of those things would be very very rare. Dr's want to cut for the stupidest reasons. For example my ds's ped said circ was needed because my ds's foreskin was to long No it isnt to long it is perfect for him and he will grow into it.

As long as you know how the intact penis works and can protect your ds that way there is no worry about having to circ later.

Rules to keep in mind are very simple. Do not allow anyone to push his foreskin back any. Do not use a lot of soap on the genitals and when you do rinse well. Only the owner of the penis is allowed to mess with it. If an infection happens treat it like you would if it where your dd. Most common infections are yeast (otc monistate works for that) and bacterial (treated with otc bacatracin). Sometimes abx are needed as well.

This thread explains what you might encounter with your ds or you very well may not but knowing what can happen and what to do if it does sure helps me relax and not fear ever having to deal with my ds "needing" circed.

[PinkinPA]

Well, I have a horror story of my own but it was from having ds1 circ'd.

At the time I gave birth, I didn't know that I had the option of not having it done. I was brought up that you just did it.


I now have four children and 3 are boys. My two youngest are NOT circumcised and they have had no problems at all. This is completely not true for our oldest.

[yarngoddess]

I think there are FAR more stories of kids that have been damaged by being circed! My own DS has sensativity issues (has since he was circed) and is just generally uncomfortable with his penis My intact boy is happy as can be. It seems to me that the reason there are the horror studies regarding older circ and intact "nightmares" is that the medical society (doctors, nurses) have NO clue how to care for an intact penis. I was trained as a CNA for a major hospital in my area (not nursing homes) and the only training I had regarding intact men was this "intact penis' should be SCRUBBED clean because they are dirty. They should be retracted ALL THE WAY- no exceptions. Circ should be an optionn regardless of age, as it's just better hygine." I kid you not. Looking back it's embarassing The best thing is to get a ped that's intact friendly, and use the ped as your back up.

You can ask him the last time he saw HIS father's penis. How often do they use their genitals as a way of "bonding"? Does he feel closer to his dad because their penis' look alike? Honestly.

It seems to me that your DH needs to be educated. Print out some info and leave it in the bathroom. Print stories about circ's gone wrong Print out the info regarding that men with their Intended foreskins have better sensation, therefore better sex Leave material regarding how to care for an intact penis. Keep talking and tell him that you are not willing to comprimise on this issue, because Cosmetic Surgery is just not healthy for a newborn

I hope you both get on the same page soon. That's SO difficult to deal with. Hang in there Momma.

[annablue]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

Most common infections are yeast (otc monistate works for that) and bacterial (treated with otc bacatracin).

This is what I was going to say. Women often get UTIs and infections, and we easily treat them with medication. Would it be so impossible to do the same for our boys, instead of cutting genitals to "prevent" it?

[Night_Nurse]

I know I should probably offer some support or provide some informative links, but the only thing I can think of (all 3 times I've read this) is that both the dentist and the hygienist thought it was appropriate to ask you DH about your son's penis and then offer horror stories! This seems so odd and inappropriate to me. Are you personal friends with this dentist or something? If not, it seems like they crossed a professional line.
Personally, I wouldn't go back to that dentist.

Also, if it matters, I've worked in hospitals (in Texas) for over two decades. I've never once encountered any kind of foreskin problem with any patients, nor have I known any intact family/friends with problems or a need to have a circ later down the road.

BTW, congratulations on your new little boy!

[mommyfied]

Thank you for your support. I feel like this is a decision I'm going to have to defend the rest of our lives so it helps to have as much info as possible. See, I wonder if these 'horror stories' of people getting circ'd were actually necessary circumcisions. Like the kid had an infection but rather than deal with it, they just thought it would be better to circ. You can't argue about these 'horror stories' because there are no details. Another one we have been given is a 90 yr old man in a nursing home had to be circ'd. (I think it that case it may have been as severe as gangrene.) I told my mom and her automatic reaction was that the nursing home wasn't taking care of him.

My first reaction to his stories today was asking him if he asked the dentist to go ahead and pull all of his teeth since he's probably going to get cavities or lose them later anyway.

My ped seems supportive - she did tell me up front that there is no medical benefit to circumcision. Unfortunately about 70% of boys in this area are circ'd so everyone we encounter is going to have limited experience with it. On the positive side, my dad is not circ'd and my grandma did not circ her son and Grandpa was not circ'd. However, they all tell me how you have to make sure you retract and clean it everyday and how they had problems with adhesions. I tell them this directly conflicts with info I've been told and that retracting actually causes problems. It's all so confusing.

Originally Posted by yarngoddess

I think there are FAR more stories of kids that have been damaged by being circed!

I have tried to argue this point from the beginning.

You can ask him the last time he saw HIS father's penis. How often do they use their genitals as a way of "bonding"? Does he feel closer to his dad because their penis' look alike? Honestly.

Yeah, I know. I did make the point that they are not going to be sitting around comparing penises. He can't seem to get past the idea that his son is going to have a "funny looking" penis. I think the only valid point he has is that he won't be able to explain to his son how to take care of his intact penis... but again, that's HIS problem. It WILL be kind of awkward if I have to take that job when he's older. I am worried that DH won't be able to answer questions without making DS feel like there is something wrong with being intact.

It seems to me that your DH needs to be educated.

Unfortunately he is just stubborn. I have given him all the info. He has seen the videos and just thought it was "interesting" to see how it was done. (This is someone who can't stand the sight of most surgeries!)

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

the dentist and the hygienist thought it was appropriate to ask you DH about your son's penis and then offer horror stories! This seems so odd and inappropriate to me. Are you personal friends with this dentist or something?

Yeah, I'm sure DH offered the info. He grinds his teeth and probably told him that he is really stressed about this situation and grinding his teeth more. He has seen this dentist since he was a little boy. I do not like him and already go somewhere else.

[Crunchy Frog]

I have a link to a horror story right here. http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1158645

I can link you to worse than that if you need something really graphic to show your DH.

[eepster]

Do not look at this link if you are at all squeamish or feeling hormonal. Just send it straight to your DH. It is just one of the horrifying things that can happen from circ.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../DOC/mrsa.html

[mommyfied]

Thank you for sharing those stories... I will pass them onto DH. (that poor baby with MRSA!!) Keep them coming. Maybe one will finally convince him. I have already told him he could bleed to death or get an infection but he sees these as rare complications that won't happen to us. I tell him since there are no benefits they definitely don't outweigh the risks no matter how small he thinks they are.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by mommyfied

Thank you for sharing those stories... I will pass them onto DH. (that poor baby with MRSA!!) Keep them coming. Maybe one will finally convince him. I have already told him he could bleed to death or get an infection but he sees these as rare complications that won't happen to us. I tell him since there are no benefits they definitely don't outweigh the risks no matter how small he thinks they are.

If it is the rarity that has him disregarding the possible complications (and the really horrific one are somewhat uncommon) then tell him about the not as horrifying, but very common ones.

There is about a 10% chance of meatal stenosis with circumcision. This condition usually requires surgery to fix. There is also a 70% chance of adhesions, which vary in severity. Approximately 10% of circ'd boys will have the circ done again b/c the original results were poor. Of course 100% will be missing a large part of their penis.

[Night_Nurse]

Have you read this? It's just for you to read, not your DH - http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html .

[ElliesMomma]

my first thought when i saw the title, was that all circumcisions are horror stories.

you won't have to defend against circumcision forever. when your son is old enough, it will be up to him.

and you did not make a "decision". you let things be the way nature intended, the way god made your son. people who circumcise their children make a decision to do it. not you.

if you want reinforcements, just cruise through this section every night for awhile.

YK, my dad and my brothers were not circumcised (although my youngest brother was later circ'd at age 16 due to recurring infection brought on by forcible retraction beginning at 6 months). growing up, before i was really "aware" of such things as "cultural norms", etc. -- i can recall the first time i heard of circumcision, and it struck me as such an odd thing to do, to cut off part of your child's genitals. and so wrong to do that to someone else's body... and really, when you think about it, sort of a sexual crime too, since it involves the genitals of a child.

i too had to defend my son and his genitals against my husband's wanting to circumcise. so glad that i did! lucky for me, my DH folded his cards and said he was done talking about it, and has never brought it up again. somehow my DH believes the only time to do it is when they are newborns, and the older they get the more it is wrong to do. whatever. my son has his whole penis, yea!

it must be hard to have to defend your son from your DH over and over, but at least he is not taking matters into his own hands and having it done behind your back. things could be worse! hang in there!!

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by mommyfied

Unfortunately he is just stubborn. I have given him all the info. He has seen the videos and just thought it was "interesting" to see how it was done. (This is someone who can't stand the sight of most surgeries!)

Do you think that his problem isn't actually that he honestly wants the bonding experience or still believes in the 'cleaner' myth? Do you think instead his problem is that he doesn't want to admit that not circing is the best option because it would feel like saying something is wrong with HIS penis? Maybe this isn't a matter of circ risk but instead just a matter of his own penis relationship.

Perhaps you should ask him if this is an issue... I'd do it in a way that he doesn't feel he needs to answer you... just give him the chance to think about it. Let him know his penis is perfect how it is and that his parents did the best they could. Not cutting his son's penis doesn't have to be admitting something is wrong with his own simply because it was cut nor does it have to mean he is somehow missing out on something. Just give him the chance to think about if maybe this is the deeper issue and he might not notice it... and the chance to realize that his penis and your son's penis are two different penises created under two different circumstances and that you hold no scorn for his simply because it wasn't your choice to make anyway. You are with him and therefor love ALL parts of him.

I think it is hard for guys who've been circumsized to face doing the opposite on their son. Men seem to have penis issues anyway but all the arguments AGAINST circumcision I think can kind of make a circ'd guy feel pretty inadequate and less of a man. That is a line intactavists use though, isn't it? let our babies come home whole. It's a hard pill to swallow, adjusting your own penis views to match what is best for your child without feeling a hurt against yourself.

[mommyfied]

Yes, treeoflife... I think that may be a big part of it. I haven't brought it up, but maybe I should figure out a way to approach it gently. You probably have seen it, but this article does sum it up:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

(never mind - I just saw that linked above... I missed the other replies!)

[mommyfied]

Originally Posted by ElliesMomma

somehow my DH believes the only time to do it is when they are newborns, and the older they get the more it is wrong to do. whatever. my son has his whole penis, yea!

it must be hard to have to defend your son from your DH over and over, but at least he is not taking matters into his own hands and having it done behind your back. things could be worse! hang in there!!

My DH thinks it can only be done now too. And, yes, I am glad he isn't trying to do it behind my back. He had an appt made and canceled it when he knew I wasn't going to let him. He was pressuring me again today, however, after coming home armed with the horror stories.

He is also saying I need to agree to this for our marriage... he says he will resent me forever. I reminded him that I'd be just as upset if we did it, and it's not about ME or us, it's about our DS.

Originally Posted by eepster

If it is the rarity that has him disregarding the possible complications (and the really horrific one are somewhat uncommon) then tell him about the not as horrifying, but very common ones.

There is about a 10% chance of meatal stenosis with circumcision. This condition usually requires surgery to fix. There is also a 70% chance of adhesions, which vary in severity. Approximately 10% of circ'd boys will have the circ done again b/c the original results were poor. Of course 100% will be missing a large part of their penis.

This is a good idea. I don't know much about these complications so I'll gather some info.

[MrsJewelsRae]

Bonding- tell him to take the boy fishing, we've found that a lot more bonding father-son activity then comparing genitals. And as far as looking alike, really, it is SUCH a non-issue! People in public will still tell your ds, wow, don't you look just like your Daddy. Our boys are not circ'd and by the time they are old enough that they may have noticed a difference in their Dad's penis (which would require careful study imo, since a child vs adult penis are quite different in the first place, regardless of circ) they aren't naked around each other anymore anyhow. It has never been an issue, in fact, my dh would laugh or look at me funny if I asked him how his bonding was affected by having an intact son, dh has never once thought on it again since he agreed with me it was a barbaric procedure once he viewed the video.

When my first son was born in the hospital the nurse had to "teach" me how to bathe and clean my son before we could be discharged. She insisted that since ds was intact he needed to be retracted each day and use a Q-TIP IN the foreskin!!!!! I had to physically block her from doing this to my son! No wonder there are intact "horror stories", because the north american medical community has largely chosen to remain ignorant or perpetuate misinformation on the issue of circumcision and the care of a normal penis. They also falsely believe that circumcision on a helpless terrified freshly born infant w/o adequate pain relief is somehow kinder than to an adult who can have the procedure explained and will be put under for it and given pain relief for as long as he needs afterward, not to mention he won't have the horrifying experience of being spread eagled and strapped down like an animal.

BTW, my resentment toward my husband would be FAR greater if he had pressured me into circ'ing than his could ever be toward me for not letting him circ our sons, not to mention my own guilt.

[Greg B]

Our GYN/OBS tried to pull the "he won't look like daddy and thus be traumatized" argument on us. Of course, I am bald on top, wear wire rimmed glasses, have a full beard, am 6 feet tall, hairy arms and legs, etc. If this argument was valid, my son would have a lot more to be traumatized over than the way our penisis looked.

During my son's grade school, the PTA was considering requiring uniforms. One of the justifications was to cut down on kids being teased over their clothes. Just the week before, my son was teased about his underwear in grade school. Kids will tease about something, anything. Part of grwoing up. Adults do it to, btw.

Have you shown him this:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

There he can read why doctors are saying don't do it.

It really sounds like he is putting you on the defensive with fear mongering and emotional arguments. You may be more effective by keeping the discussion on a rational level and requiring that he do work to make his arguement compelling. Make him justify why RIC is the best decision. If he says bonding, then make him lay out the reasoning and support for that in a way that any rational person could read and say yes I see that arguement and it makes sense.

Do that for each issue he brings up. Then when you and he have covered all the issues, then compare the advantages and disadvantages. Not just one at a time, but together. See if the benefits he sees outweigh the violation of human rights, pain, complications, loss of sexual function and feelings for both your son and his future partners. Keep things like teasing in context of waht your son will be exposed to anyway, RIC or not. If there are not very compelling reasons that you need to violate his human right to bodily integrity, then the answer should be:

His body, his choice.

Regards

[hakunangovi]

Ask your Dh what his answer will be, when say fifteen years from now, his son comes to him and asks why he had insisted on having the best part of his penis whacked off ??

[SashaBreeze]

Originally Posted by mommyfied

I think the only valid point he has is that he won't be able to explain to his son how to take care of his intact penis... but again, that's HIS problem. It WILL be kind of awkward if I have to take that job when he's older. I am worried that DH won't be able to answer questions without making DS feel like there is something wrong with being intact.

I really wouldn't worry too much about this. When we had our first son I was very fortunate that dh looked through the information with me and immediately got on board about not getting a circ. That being said I ran into the exact situation you talked about above just short of a year ago. Our younger son retracted and our older son still has not (our youngest is more.... ummm hands on so to speak than our older son) So when our older boy came asking questions about why his little brother was doing that and not him I assumed dh would handle that. WRONG. He looked at me like I was crazy and told me that since he had been circed that I knew as much about an intact penis as he would. So I had a nice little conversation with our son while dh sat listening and afterwards dh just laughed and acknowledged that he had been ridiculous and that from then on out he would field those questions.
Soooo hopefully your dh will come around about talking with his son about such things (I am going with the belief that you will get your dh turned around on this issue and that your little one will go on without being circed) and if your dh never does feel comfortable talking with him about it then I would not stress to bad about it. Our little guy was fine talking with me about it, mom is mom and according to children we know everything!