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the ammonia thread

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 
Shannon, I was just about to come back to ask a question. I was reading your site...

http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/glutamate.php

trying to figure out glutamate and ammonia, really just reading everything new that you've put up.

My quick question--is there a relationship between calcium and ammonia?

....

Okay, so I'm wondering (and feel free to just blab everything you know and I'll try to pick through for stuff I need now), is it plausible that a person who doesn't deal with excess ammonia well, but also isn't digesting protein well, would not notice either until one issue is dealt with? Say adding in digestive enzymes that seem to be improving protein digestion (seen via increasing blink rates indicating an increase in dopamine? presumably due to more tyrosine being absorbed)? Am I totally off-base in thinking this is a reasonable scenario?

Would love to read anything you've got to say, I think my brain is ready to learn new stuff (though I am quite limited in computer time while on vacation, so my lack of responses and slow learning rate shouldn't be interpreted as lack of interest).

post #2 of 8
post #3 of 8
Just saw this, but I should be making dinner right now. I'll come back! But my data point - I've got genes for high dopamine and high ammonia. My pancreas seems to be breaking, and as a result combined with tandem nursing, my protein requirements are sky high. Despite 2 months of digestive enzymes and a HIGH protein diet, I've still got low amino acids and lower ammonia. And my blink rate is 8-10/minute. I tend to get low dopamine symptoms, but wasn't getting them with that blink rate. Haven't checked when the dopamine feels low. That shows up with die off from the enzymes, which is presumably aluminum, but I should get the test results to know for sure in the next week. And the aluminum basically amplifies all my + snps, so should be raising my ammonia even more.
post #4 of 8
Thread Starter 
So despite a propensity for high ammonia, you haven't actually had it yet, am I getting that right?

I'm wondering about the nosebleed yesterday, after the first calcium supp I've given her in quite a while, but maybe it was a coincidence. Lunch today was roasted potatoes, an easy attempt to get in more fat and less protein(hey, it's vacation, I don't want to cook a lot and I had to wing it a bit to figure out what to feed them that's low protein and had ingredients we have in the house).

Oh, and protein for kids, the 4-6 yo range, I'm seeing 0.5 grams per pound of body weight, so 20-25 grams per day for the kids, other references are just a flat 24 grams for that age group. Given that DD can eat 3 hardboiled eggs for breakfast (say 18 grams of protein?), well, I need to work to at least prevent a high-protein diet (while on vacation, easier at home of course--I think I'm going to restart our idli-making!).

This is probably a little off-topic, though there's really no place for it. But I bet there's something really interesting going on biochemically when each of us is stressed. We've been away from home, and away from DH, for about 3 weeks now and in the past couple days I'm starting to see the stress in the kids, missing him, missing home, missing our usual routines, all that stuff.

And DS, especially today, was noticeably spacier than usual, and DD has been seriously cranky (impatient to get what she wants, not very flexible) for 2 days now. I'm thinking of heading home a bit earlier than I'd originally planned--but both kids are handling this tons better than 2 years ago (I guess I'm handling it better too).
post #5 of 8
Doing this based on memory...

The big variables were looking at here, when looking at high ammonia are gut bacteria and breaking down of amino acids. Proteins get broken down and the amino acids recycled constantly, and that's normal. What doesn't get recycled gets excreted, and that's what we're replenishing when we eat protein. We don't have any way to store excess protein. If we eat and absorb more than our bodies can use, then we break down the excess aminos and use them as fuel. Alternately, in a state of starvation, if there isn't enough glucose or fatty acids to use for fuel, the body will then turn to amino acids. Amino acids are the only of the three that have nitrogen, and so the nitrogen waste from breaking down the amino acid gets turned into ammonia. Gut bacteria can also turn dietary protein into ammonia, or break up the stuff we've marked for excretion so it gets reabsorbed.

Some symptoms of high ammonia are brain fog and/or stimming.

The way we normally get rid of ammonia is in the urea cycle. The rate limiting step - the place it usually gets snagged the most, is a step that uses aspartate and citrulline. Asparagus is an exceptionally rich source of aspartate and watermelon has a lot of citrulline. I'm assuming that's part of why they're common components of kidney cleanses.

What the urea cycle can't keep up with, BH4 can detoxify. It uses two molecules of bh4 to clear one molecule of ammonia, though, so it drains bh4 pretty fast. BH4 is also used to convert tryptophan to serotonin, and to convert phenylalanine to tyrosine. Tyrosine is the precursor for dopamine, thyroid hormones, melanin (not melatonin, that's from serotonin) and one more I'm forgetting. One form of PKU involves low/nonexistent BH4 levels.

When there's not enough bh4 to clear out the ammonia, you start to get some nasty oxidants like superoxide (and one other, I forget, its in the yasko methylation diagram) and you don't make as much nitric oxide. (NO, using the NOS enzyme/gene.). Not enough NO, and you end up with cardiovascular disease and other blood vessel damage. Also, in the chain of oxidative stress and antioxidants, low levels of NO can make things worse while good levels can actually stop the chain of oxidative damage.

Symptoms of low dopamine are (this is my list, not an 'official' one) lack of motivation/interest in the world with the potential exception of one obsession; low blink rate (is that in the guess your genetics thread?), and high prolactin (is that why I have an abundant milk supply, why ds starts choking when I'm getting enzyme die-off, and why I have a bunch of cherry angiomas - little blood red mole-type things?). And in my experience, dopamine levels can change within a day or two of dramatically changing my folate or aluminum levels.

Ammonia, especially in the brain, can combine with alpha ketoglutarate to make glutamine and glutamate. Both of those are less toxic than ammonia, so that's a good thing. But high glutamate can be an issue too, as were talking about in the glutamate/GABA thread. (And aspartate, used in the urea cycle, can activate glutamate receptors)

So now the genetics and such, based on yasko-centric reading.

CBS up regulations (likely if you have unexpectedly low homocysteine levels) cause an increased breakdown of homocysteine. Breaking down amino acids creates ammonia. So if you're breaking stuff down excessively, you're going to tend towards high ammonia levels.

Stuff that affects BH4 levels will also affect how well we deal with ammonia, so mthfr A1298C, along with folate status, niacin and vitamin C. I think those are the three main ones that recycle bh2 to bhp. Aluminum blocks that enzyme, so it effectively lowers bh4 as well.

To add digestion into the mix, there's the protein you eat, then there's what, if anything, your gut bacteria do to it, then there's how well you digest and absorb it (stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes, etc), then there's how much your body needs at the moment (think building muscle or making milk or a baby or healing a wound or making enzymes/fixing an amino acid deficit, etc).

The rda for protein is around 56g, I think. Add in tandem nursing with an abundant milk supply and the requirement ups to 70g-ish, a deficit to make up, and not digesting protein well, and I'm eating probably close to 90-100g/day and my ammonia is still low (as are my aminos), I just had it tested. When there's no die off, at least. I'm ++ for the CBS upregulation and +/- for mthfr a1298c, so my ammonia *should* be sky high with that kind of protein intake.

How's that for a brain dump? I'm sure I missed a bunch, too
post #6 of 8
post #7 of 8
Thread Starter 
Shannon, that rocked. Thank you!
post #8 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyalynn View Post
So despite a propensity for high ammonia, you haven't actually had it yet, am I getting that right?

I'm wondering about the nosebleed yesterday, after the first calcium supp I've given her in quite a while, but maybe it was a coincidence. Lunch today was roasted potatoes, an easy attempt to get in more fat and less protein(hey, it's vacation, I don't want to cook a lot and I had to wing it a bit to figure out what to feed them that's low protein and had ingredients we have in the house).

Oh, and protein for kids, the 4-6 yo range, I'm seeing 0.5 grams per pound of body weight, so 20-25 grams per day for the kids, other references are just a flat 24 grams for that age group. Given that DD can eat 3 hardboiled eggs for breakfast (say 18 grams of protein?), well, I need to work to at least prevent a high-protein diet (while on vacation, easier at home of course--I think I'm going to restart our idli-making!).

This is probably a little off-topic, though there's really no place for it. But I bet there's something really interesting going on biochemically when each of us is stressed. We've been away from home, and away from DH, for about 3 weeks now and in the past couple days I'm starting to see the stress in the kids, missing him, missing home, missing our usual routines, all that stuff.

And DS, especially today, was noticeably spacier than usual, and DD has been seriously cranky (impatient to get what she wants, not very flexible) for 2 days now. I'm thinking of heading home a bit earlier than I'd originally planned--but both kids are handling this tons better than 2 years ago (I guess I'm handling it better too).
I do think I've seen high ammonia symptoms, from enzyme die off, but the two times I had it checked, it came back perfectly midrange a year plus ago, and way low a couple weeks ago. It'd be interesting to try and test it when I'm in a brain fog (what I'm assuming is ammonia) but I'm not sure I could coordinate that with the wee ones.

Thanks for the kid RDA!

And yeah, stress is interesting and powerful stuff. Someday, I'm sure I'll want to look at the biochemistry, but there's just a bit way too much going on these days.
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