Please give me your opinions, pro and con, on the chickenpox vax. - Page 2

[INF-ss]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

My concern about not vaxing is that I don't want to set them up for getting shingles later in life. If it was just the one time illness without the risk for later problems I would just let them get it. I don't want them to have to worry about shingles though.

An individual can get shingles through VZV infection, that is, through purposeful chicken pox exposure and/or inoculation of the VZV itself. The vaccinated and those who have had chicken pox are considered shingles candidates obviously.

Of course, the unvaccinated have nothing to worry about, unless of course, they are willing to get infected.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

You can get shingles after having the vax. So getting the cp vax to spare them shingles wont work if they have issues with their immune system weakens or any time they are under horrible stress like I was you can develop shingles.

I have seen to many little kids at my kids school develop shingles after the cp vax.

Kids who got shingles in the past had immune issues but that isnt the case now. I hate that I was bullied into getting the cp vax for my dd Neither of my kids will never have another cp vax. Even if I do decide to start vaxing again. So from what I have personally seen the odds of getting shingles as a child is higher after the cp vax and I have heard there have been some research showing the correlation as well.

[Crunchy Frog]

I'm very interested in information that children may actually be more at risk for shingles if they have the vax.

I'm doing some internet research on that avenue now, but would appreciate if anyone could provide me with links.

If they can still get shingles, or are even more vulnerable to shingles after the vax, that definitely alters the equation for me.

[shelbean91]

Originally Posted by carriebft

of course I know it is live.

I do not think vaccine shedding is comparable to exposing a child to the disease and then taking them out into public places. The chances of spreading the disease in the two situations are not even comparably close. Is the pregnant woman in their home or no? there would only be a remote chance if she has contact with the children and they get a rash from the vaccine.

IMO, the chance of vaccine shedding has been overstated by many. Not saying it can't happen, but it has been widely overstated (even more so when it comes to MMR and all the myths surrounding that)

My 9 month old, fully bf son was the one who had CP first and he caught it from a child who had just been vax's. There was only one place he had been with me and not the other 2 kids and we were near a child who had just been vax'd. Not a question that's where he caught it.

However, once exposed to varicella - whether wild or from the vax, it lies dormant in your system and there is always a chance it will reoccur as shingles at some later date. It's suspected there are more cases of shingles now b/c there are fewer cases of CP, which had been acting as a natural booster 'shot'.

I'll take my chance with the virus and the virus alone instead of the virus in whatever soup of chemicals they use to make it. I'm not anti-vax, but the CP vax was created as a money maker, nothing else, IMO.

[INF-ss]

Originally Posted by shelbean91

It's suspected there are more cases of shingles now b/c there are fewer cases of CP, which had been acting as a natural booster 'shot'.

An individual can't have shingles unless he had chicken pox. There will be an epidemic of shingles in the future because many are inoculated (vaccinated) and intentionally being infected (pox party) with VZV.

[ma2two]

The best ways to prevent shingles are

1) to never get the chickenpox vaccine or be exposed to chickenpox (not realistic)

2) get chickenpox, and then actively look for re-exposure (through mothering.com, Yahoo Groups, etc. every 5 to 10 years. I don't actually know how often re-exposure is necessary. I am going to start looking 5 years after my kids got chickenpox, and not worry if it takes a few years to find the next case.

The shingles vaccine is only for people ages 60 and older. It is a very strong chickenpox vaccine. It would not be necessary if we had enough chickenpox circulating in the community. Merck created the problem with the chickenpox vaccine and is profiting from it with the shingles vaccine. I strongly suspect that within a few years, the minimum age for the shingles vaccine will be lowered.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

I'm very interested in information that children may actually be more at risk for shingles if they have the vax.

I'm doing some internet research on that avenue now, but would appreciate if anyone could provide me with links.

If they can still get shingles, or are even more vulnerable to shingles after the vax, that definitely alters the equation for me.

I don't have links, but here's the logic of it:

Shingles occurs when there is varicella virus in the body, but immunity wanes. The chickenpox vaccine gives weaker immunity than the actual illness.

[INF-ss]

Originally Posted by ma2two

The best ways to prevent shingles are

1) to never get the chickenpox vaccine or be exposed to chickenpox (not realistic)

2) get chickenpox, and then actively look for re-exposure (through mothering.com, Yahoo Groups, etc. every 5 to 10 years. I don't actually know how often re-exposure is necessary. I am going to start looking 5 years after my kids got chickenpox, and not worry if it takes a few years to find the next case.

Number 2 makes no sense. Why the need for re-infection?

The shingles vaccine is only for people ages 60 and older. It is a very strong chickenpox vaccine. It would not be necessary if we had enough chickenpox circulating in the community. Merck created the problem with the chickenpox vaccine and is profiting from it with the shingles vaccine.

Varicella will be eradicated if people will only stop spreading the disease.

[ThisCat]

Originally Posted by INF-ß

Number 2 makes no sense. Why the need for re-infection?

The same reason you need booster shots. Re-exposure builds immunity.

One of the reasons the rate of shingles has increased and is occurring at a younger age for those that had CP as a child is because they are not being re-exposed to the disease enough to build a strong immunity. So basically a decrease in the rate of CP in kids led to an increase in the rate of shingles in adults.

Originally Posted by INF-ß

Varicella will be eradicated if people will only stop spreading the disease.

This remains to be seen. I'm not against vaccines in general and my first child has had one dose of the CP vax so far. But I am not convinced this vaccine was a good idea to begin with. I think getting wild CP offers the best protection and the powers that be should have just left this one alone.

However, the reality is it's hard to come by and not being vaccinated and not finding it naturally as a child leaves my kids open to getting CP as adults or worse while pregnant. Then again, if they get the vax, they won't have that great of an immunity and will need boosters and could get a "breakthrough case." It's really just a crappy situation all the way around I don't like any of my choices.

[Jugs]

Seeing as how we actually have to actively search for chicken pox now, I have no confidence that we will get enough re-exposure in our lifetime to prevent shingles; having a natural case of CP is now no more beneficial than getting the vaccine. I'd rather not get the vaccine either, but at least there's an element of control over getting boosters to prevent breakthrough infection and shingles.

[serenbat]

The same reason you need booster shots.

I see this as the real issue. They know about how long the CP vac will last (given as a child till adulthood) given the current state of health care, I highly doubt many adults will re-booster and keep doing so every few years, many do not do DPT, why would the pay to do CP as well. $$$$$$$$ reason so many seniors will not get the vaccine for shingles (they have done several stories about this --very easy to find) -


http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/i..._shingles.html

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15003094/

and given the fact that as some people age, they are not ideal (immune issues) and can not even get the shingles vaccine


as with most, you don't know really in the US if your immunity has vaned unless you have a reason to test (EX. preggers and tested for German Measles)---will CP be added for being pregnant in the future? and who is willing to pay for adult males to be tested and re-boostered?

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by serenbat

NO- you are NOT to get it if your immune system is weakened - per the CDC (this is also stated by the manufacture on the product insert)



www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm

has a weakened immune system because of
HIV/AIDS or another disease that affects the immune system,
treatment with drugs that affect the immune system, such as steroids,
cancer treatment such as radiation or chemotherapy,
a history of cancer affecting the bone marrow or lymphatic system, such as leukemia or lymphoma.

I feel you are overreading what you are seeing in these package inserts. I feel that many of the things on there are "covering their butts" in the way that they say measles vaccine can spread measles but we have yet to see it, kwim?

1- the vaccine does prevent shingles 50% of the time, we have ample evidence of this. does it prevent in all people? no. could it prevent for a period and then latent pox return-ie shingles? possibly, I suppose we will see in the follow up to the study I posted. But for now it seems preventative for a good many years in 50%-67% of those who get it.

2- people 80+ years many times have a number of issues that lead to a suppressed immune system- when compared to a younger adult especially. We see in the study I posted that the vaccine was given to people who had such issues seen naturally with age and it was tolerated well.

3- I fail to see in your "several" links of evidence where they state that someone who has the chicken pox vaccine in contagious ___ days before the vaccine caused rash breaks out. The first link is broken. The second link is the package insert that transmission to susceptable groups can happen post vaccination in those who develop a rash and that cases of nonrash transmission "have been reported" (but they have never been documented,) you can see this all over google scholar.

It's the same with the measles vaccine insert. It says theoretically you can pass measles after getting it, but it has not actually happened or ever been documented. So I would love to see actual evidence for the words you are using rather than a vague kind general statement.

also, many of your links in this thread are broken.

[Amila]

My kids were exposed to a little girl who had caught CP from her freshly vaccinated cousin. So it does happen. Of course my kiddos didn't get it, though I wish they would have. I too have also heard that it is the lack of re-exposure (meaning our kids aren't getting it therefore we aren't getting a natural "booster") that is the cause for more cases of shingles. So in essence, the CP vaccine is contributing to more cases of shingles, which Merck conveniently has a vaccine for...hmmm.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by shelbean91

My 9 month old, fully bf son was the one who had CP first and he caught it from a child who had just been vax's. There was only one place he had been with me and not the other 2 kids and we were near a child who had just been vax'd. Not a question that's where he caught it.

However, once exposed to varicella - whether wild or from the vax, it lies dormant in your system and there is always a chance it will reoccur as shingles at some later date. It's suspected there are more cases of shingles now b/c there are fewer cases of CP, which had been acting as a natural booster 'shot'.

I'll take my chance with the virus and the virus alone instead of the virus in whatever soup of chemicals they use to make it. I'm not anti-vax, but the CP vax was created as a money maker, nothing else, IMO.

It takes 15-20 days post chicken pox vaccine to shed enough virus to even possibly infect others (+ presence of the rash).

Did they test your children to see if it was OKA?

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Amila

My kids were exposed to a little girl who had caught CP from her freshly vaccinated cousin. So it does happen. Of course my kiddos didn't get it, though I wish they would have. I too have also heard that it is the lack of re-exposure (meaning our kids aren't getting it therefore we aren't getting a natural "booster") that is the cause for more cases of shingles. So in essence, the CP vaccine is contributing to more cases of shingles, which Merck conveniently has a vaccine for...hmmm.

Again, is takes more than 2 weeks for a child to build the kind of viral load necessary to even "theoretically" infect others. So its really not "freshly" vaccinated kids you should be watching out for. It's kids who got their vaccine 2.5-3 weeks ago.

But again, I don't think it is a very large risk at all.

[carriebft]

I am going to be out of the country for 2 weeks with no internet, but I would love if someone could post some studies that tell us that shingles is increasing because vaccinated kids are developing shingles from their vaccine virus lying dormant in their body.

All the studies and models I have looked at conclude one of three things:

-shingles is not increasing
-shingles will increase for 3 decades post introduction of vaccine and then fall dramatically from there because of the exposure angle, NOT because people have OKA in their system (or studies that confirm this)
-shingles was increasing before the oka strain vaccine

examples of each:



http://www.springerlink.com/content/g15580j564817406/

http://journals.cambridge.org/action...ne&aid=1231812

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419401

studies showing shingles less likely or no greater in those who have been vaccinated- yes, they all look at children with leukemia, but that population makes for a study where you will have shingles in large numbers in the child population:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3...,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...,f1000m,isrctn


So what I am looking for is actual studies/evidence that varicella vaccination in and of itself, the oka strain residing in the body, causes more shingles cases and is responsible for the shingles increase.


Also evidence for this statement:

They know about how long the CP vac will last (given as a child till adulthood)

I have yet to find anything definitive on this. where did you get this information? we know its good for at least 13 years and at least 30 years based on two studies that I know of, but they made no predictions into the future as to how much longer after that it could last.

[serenbat]

the vaccine does prevent shingles 50% of the time

can you provide a link that says this?

It help lessen the effects in only 50%- there is nothing that will prevents you from breaking out, it is not designed to do so. The shingles vaccine lessens in about 50% and there is no prevention. If you are unsure you can contact Merck and they will tell you just what they state.

If you feel they are only saying so to cover themselves that is one thing but no studies, not the CDC, etc have come out with a different result.





With WILD or the CP vaccine --- all that break out are contagious 2 days prior to the rash. You may want to speak to your dr about this so that they can tell you. The vaccine is not a "different" type of chickenpox that is acting differently than what it is to prevent.

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/inf...icken_pox.html

Some kids have a fever, abdominal pain, sore throat, headache, or a vague sick feeling a day or 2 before the rash appears.

regarding the vaccine for CP or shingles, your dr can also state what it does and does not do

[carriebft]

The vaccine type pox is a different strain, attenuated, and causes distinctly different symptoms. It is clinically different and is identifiable as such (and when it isn't, it can be tested obviously). I still see no evidence that what you say on this is true. ALl the evidence I see, incvluding the CDC page on pox, says that, if you get a rash at the injection site or elsewhere, contact with that rash can spread chicken pox, usually to immunecompromised individuals.

Dr sears says this:

f my child is vaccinated against chickenpox, can he pass the disease on to other people?
Possibly, but it is very rare. Studies show that after fourteen million doses of VV, only three cases have been reported in which the vaccinated person transmitted chickenpox to another person, and those occurred only if the immunized person developed a rash.

Here is my shingles study again:

http://www.annals.org/content/152/9/545.long#T1

Results: After inoculation, 255 (1.4%) vaccine recipients and 254 (1.4%) placebo recipients reported serious adverse events. Local inoculation-site side effects were reported by 1604 (48%) vaccine recipients and 539 (16%) placebo recipients in the substudy. A total of 977 (56.6%) of the vaccine recipients reporting local side effects were aged 60 to 69 years, and 627 (39.2%) were older than 70 years. After inoculation, herpes zoster occurred in 7 vaccine recipients versus 24 placebo recipients. Long-term follow-up (mean, 3.39 years) showed that rates of hospitalization or death did not differ between vaccine and placebo recipients.

more studies on singles vaccine effectiveness- some repeat but give more info:

http://www.annals.org/content/145/5/386.extract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...978c1776888797

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cach...t=800000000000


OK got to pack. I look forward to reading when I get back.

[ma2two]

"Chickenpox in the United Kingdom, where vaccination is not undertaken, has had a stable epidemiology for decades and is a routine childhood illness. Because of vaccination, chickenpox is now a rarity in the USA. In the UK vaccination is not done because introduction of a routine childhood vaccination might drive up the age at which those who are non-immune get the illness (chickenpox tends to be more severe the older you are), and the incidence of shingles may increase. The United Kingdom is waiting to see what happens in countries where vaccination is routine."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679476

[snowqueen]

Im not sure whether or not to give my son the chicken pox vax either.
I had a bad case of the chicken pox when I was 6 yrs old. I ended up in the hospital.

My son is 18 months and I stopped vaxing because of a bad reaction he had with one of the vaccines. I am considering getting him the chicken pox vax before he starts school though. I am just so back and forth with the decision, I don't know what to do.