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Please give me your opinions, pro and con, on the chickenpox vax. - Page 3

post #41 of 58
7/12/10 at 9:42pm
I also had a bad chicken pox case that landed me in the hospital. I have done some research and talk to a few experts and they all agreed that that severe chicken pox reactions of the kind I had would not be "passed down" to my kids, as they were not attributable to a genetically passed down condition of my own. does that make sense?

Knowing that helped me feel OK with waiting until school age to do the pox vaccine. On one hand, I know my own experience makes the idea of severe chicken pox real to me but it doesn't increase the chance that my kids will suffer the same. but I am still aware of it, kwim?

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post #42 of 58
7/12/10 at 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
of course I know it is live.

I do not think vaccine shedding is comparable to exposing a child to the disease and then taking them out into public places. The chances of spreading the disease in the two situations are not even comparably close. Is the pregnant woman in their home or no? there would only be a remote chance if she has contact with the children and they get a rash from the vaccine.

IMO, the chance of vaccine shedding has been overstated by many. Not saying it can't happen, but it has been widely overstated (even more so when it comes to MMR and all the myths surrounding that)
Agreed. I'm not a big vax fan by any means (dtap is the only vax we are doing completely with ds...he had two hib and a prevnar but we stopped prevnar after a reaction). But i do not believe in shedding, at all really. I'm sure it is possible but i can only imagine it is even rarer than any other possibliy (i.e. getting a preventable disease and dying and/or getting a reaction from a vax). I work in a center where 50% of the kids are vax'd on schedule, the rest either do not vax at all or are selective like we are with ds. Every week the vax'ed kids are showing up with their 5 bandaides on their arm, playing with all the unvax'd kids. There has never been a case of ANY of the vaccine preventable stuff at our center from vax'd or unvax'd kids. NONE. I mean i know several families who WANT chicken pox and have been unsuccessful at finding them "wildly" or by catching them from a shedding vax'd kid.
post #43 of 58
7/12/10 at 10:58pm
secondary transmission

www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/522125

www.cdc.gov/EID/content/15/10/1702.htm

http://www.pediatrics.aappublication...full/106/2/e28


others do as well -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/he...=2&ref=science

There is a recap of his polio on the Purdue site www.engineering.purdue.edu
John H Hager

it's not real to some unless you know or have seen it happen

I personally would not want to put another person at risk.
post #44 of 58
7/13/10 at 12:33am
Two of your links refer to the same, single case: hence the fact that there are only 3 documented cases of this- although I have read that there are 5, but that was only on one site. it seems even dr sears gives the 3 stat. Your PDF link again gives the three stat, but mentions two possible others (I suppose that is where the 5 stat comes from).

I believe not vaccinating leaves more possibility for infecting others. I have also demonstrated, with three studies, that shingles is equal or less (1 study) and less likely (2 studies) in those who are vaccinated for varicella.

Of course, that does not mean I do not stand for parental decision and family choice. (i say this because, again, I am going out of town and don't want anyone to think I am saying GO OUT AND GET THIS VACCINE! I just put out there the science I am seeing.)
post #45 of 58
7/13/10 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by INF-ß View Post
An individual can't have shingles unless he had chicken pox. There will be an epidemic of shingles in the future because many are inoculated (vaccinated) and intentionally being infected (pox party) with VZV.
Right. THey need to be exposed through varicella - either through the shot or the wild virus. But if the vaccination isn't as 'complete' as natural immunity, it's suspected there is a backlash so to speak of shingles, as shingles is the reactivation of the varicella virus.
post #46 of 58
7/13/10 at 3:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
It takes 15-20 days post chicken pox vaccine to shed enough virus to even possibly infect others (+ presence of the rash).

Did they test your children to see if it was OKA?
Link to that fact? THey didn't test anything - when you have CP, they don't wnat you anywhere near the dr office.
post #47 of 58
7/13/10 at 3:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Again, is takes more than 2 weeks for a child to build the kind of viral load necessary to even "theoretically" infect others. So its really not "freshly" vaccinated kids you should be watching out for. It's kids who got their vaccine 2.5-3 weeks ago.

But again, I don't think it is a very large risk at all.
I'm glad you don't think it's a risk, others obviously do. My youngest son had it first. He was only one place alone without the other kids for weeks before and after.
post #48 of 58
7/13/10 at 3:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
T ALl the evidence I see, incvluding the CDC page on pox, says that, if you get a rash at the injection site or elsewhere, contact with that rash can spread chicken pox, usually to immunecompromised individuals.
And a rash at the injection site or elsewhere can show up how quickly after the injection? I thought it was relatively soon after. So to say it takes 15-20 days for the viral load to be high enough is conflicting with what you posted here. I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly.

To be fair - I honestly don't care what others choose to do with their kids and vax's. To me, personally, this is one of the most useless vax's....but that's me. To each their own.
post #49 of 58
7/13/10 at 3:19am
Final thought on the subject - I teach and at my school, every case of CP reported for the past 3 years has been in vax'd students. Antecdotal, but enough for me.
post #50 of 58
7/13/10 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
And a rash at the injection site or elsewhere can show up how quickly after the injection? I thought it was relatively soon after. So to say it takes 15-20 days for the viral load to be high enough is conflicting with what you posted here. I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly.

To be fair - I honestly don't care what others choose to do with their kids and vax's. To me, personally, this is one of the most useless vax's....but that's me. To each their own.
Many of the links posted in this thread confirm this fact. rashes 2 weeks post vaccination have been tested positive for wild pox. rashes 15-40 days post shot are OKA. Rashes after are breakthrough disease.

Quote:
With respect to vesicular rashes within 42 days after vaccination,
PCR analysis is more likely to identify wild-type VZV
in those rashes occurring within the first 2 weeks after vaccination,
whereas rashes occurring 15–42 days after vaccination
are more likely to be identified as Oka VZV. This trend is similar
to what has been previously reported [1].
that is from the PDF in serenbat's last post. You can read it again on the CDC site, the AAP site, and in Dr Sear's book amongst other sources.

Also, in the 3-5 (depending on source) of the healthy vaccine transmission cases, only the person who got the vaccine got pox in the first 2 weeks, all transmission to others occurred day 15+.

You are assuming the rash appears quickly, but study has shown again and again that wild VZV appears in the first 2 weeks, Oka later (mean day 21). And those few Oka rashes appearing earlier than 2 weeks have not spread to others.
post #51 of 58
7/13/10 at 9:09am
shelbean91- I would also point out that the average incubation period for chicken pox is 14-16 days with a range of 7-21, so knowing that, the facts on vaccine transmission should make more sense, being a much weaker virus.
post #52 of 58
7/13/10 at 10:51am
So what about a rash within a couple of days of the vax? My daughter got about a dozen and half small blisters within a few days of her CP vax at 12 months. The doctor wasn't sure if by some bizarre coincidence she might have been exposed to CP shortly before the vax or if it was a reaction. He had feeling it was wild CP because of the amount of blisters but couldn't say for sure. I had a feeling that it was a reaction given the timing. Thoughts? Is there a way to tell now years later?
post #53 of 58
7/13/10 at 11:08am
the rash was probably wild. It may sound coincidental, but in those 2 weeks after vaccination the rashes in all these studies tested wild except like 5 which were in the 8 day range but did not transmit-- and that's after tens of thousands of doses.

Also note that there were many rashes in the first days after vaccination that were NOT varicella at all. that could have been the case for you as well.

Considering that most rashes that close to vaccination weren't varicella at all...perhaps that is even more likely that the wild VZV.
post #54 of 58
7/13/10 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Also note that there were many rashes in the first days after vaccination that were NOT varicella at all. that could have been the case for you as well.

Considering that most rashes that close to vaccination weren't varicella at all...perhaps that is even more likely that the wild VZV.
It definitely looked exactly like CP blisters to me and the doctor. He didn't seem to have any doubt about that. He even quarantined the exam room. In my defense, they asked me to come in when I called about the rash.
post #55 of 58
7/13/10 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
Right. THey need to be exposed through varicella - either through the shot or the wild virus. But if the vaccination isn't as 'complete' as natural immunity, it's suspected there is a backlash so to speak of shingles, as shingles is the reactivation of the varicella virus.
Are you referring to the innate immunity or exposure via natural infection? Which is it?
post #56 of 58
7/13/10 at 11:18pm
I have removed several posts from this thread which were either not consistent with our guidelines or were responses to such posts. Feel free to PM any questions.
post #57 of 58
7/14/10 at 2:25pm
Here is a link that you might want to read over and talk with your dr for more information regarding the long-term need for boostering.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM142824.pdf
from 2005

Boosting of VZV
vaccine responses could potentially reduce concerns about duration of vaccine efficacy.
These concerns are important because, if immunity were insufficient in adults, they might
be susceptible to more severe disease, and if immunity were insufficient in women who
subsequently become pregnant, their children might be more susceptible to congenital
varicella syndrome.

more updated -

www.cvi.asm.org/cgi/reprint/3/3/365.pdf

regarding if you did have shingles, did you discuss with your dr doing a titers to see what your levels are? does your dr feel you are at risk for a repeat of shingles?
post #58 of 58
7/20/10 at 4:59pm
The CP vax does not last from childhood to adulthood! My ds doc said it was only about 5-10 years.

My ds was vax at age 5 and he got the CP at age 14. It wasn't until he got CP that I was told he needed to have the booster. He did have a mild case, but missing 2 weeks of high school hurts. I wish he could have gotten them as a child instead.
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Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Health › Vaccinations › Mindful Vaccination › Please give me your opinions, pro and con, on the chickenpox vax.