mocking me?or just fast learners

[vali_babes]

I have dipped in and out of these pages and am now starting to formulate my questions. I have been overwhelmed for too long and am now realising time will not solve all the things that are going on.

I have 5 yr old twins, a 22mnth old and a new baby. Since being pregnant with the 22mnth old in 2008 I have had much more trouble with dealing with my anger, the kids' fights, uncooperative behaviour.

When the twins were 3 and I was very pregnant and still feeding them both to sleep and exhausted I started saying things like "if you dont get into bed now you will have to go to sleep on your own" the very next day they started to use this on me. I was being told "if you dont let me eat some chocolate I wont eat my dinner". What amazed me was the instant use of the new language/technique/control method. I tried very hard to say what I meant in other ways but they kept doing it - in a more threatening way i guess - which is how it sounded when i first said it.

Anyway, it has just happened again. Since the latest baby they have become very defiant/less cooperative/aggressive with each other and their younger brother. I decided to do something my sister-in-law does which is give 3 warnings and if they havent stopped the aggressive behaviour or the noise or climbing on the table or whatever then they either get some time apart, time-in or -out or they get physically removed from the table.

anyway. i started doing this with fighting and the next day when i was saying something they didn't want to hear i was being told "that's one mum and if you say it again you have to go to your room". I really feel like it is pointless using a method when they just mock me.

i also feel like i really have no idea how to deal with conflict and how to engage cooperation. i end up feeling like i want to make them do whatever it us they wont do but i dont like the idea of rewards/penalties.

anyone else have their kids doing this?
also any tips on stopping fighting/hurting each other would be great

[dianakaye]

My LO is very little and has no siblings, but I just wanted to say a couple of things.

First, I don't think your kids are mocking you. You are modeling behavior, so they think that's the appropriate way to behave. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, just that kids pick up on what we're doing in a monkey see, monkey do sort of way.

I think maybe because your kids are so bright that you can do more explanation and less "threatening" (threatening seems like a harsh word, but I can't think of a better one). For example, "You seem really upset. Why don't you get down from the table to cool off". I think putting things in positive terms could really help.

One book I really liked was How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. Your older girls are getting to an age where they can really communicate what they're feeling. I've also heard Siblings Without Rivalry (by the same authors) is good.

I feel for you and your kids- adjusting to a new family member is tough on everyone. It'll get better!

[mom2grrls]

I think it's pretty normal for things to be rough for a bit when a new baby enters in. I wouldn't count to three, if there is unsafe behavior going on it's better to get up and remove people.
I'll second Siblings Without Rivalry it basically goes through how not to take sides when your kids are fighting which is easy to do.

[nina_yyc]

In Unconditional Parenting he says it's always best to assume the most innocent motive consistent with the actions.

I also don't like warning systems because then they learn that they don't have to do anything you ask until the third time. I would maybe do that the first time and then afterwards assume that they know the behavior is off limits and address it right away. (At least for the 5yo.)

I don't have a ton of exp with 5 year olds or aggression between equal adversaries, but I do the physical removal and timeout if DD is endangering someone. I know a lot of the books say to stay out of sibling conflict (ie. say, can you please take your fight outside) but since one of my sibs is a baby I intervene.

I have found that the positive stuff works much better than the negative consequences with aggression. For example I've had DD do supervised gentle play with the baby and that went a lot farther than timeouts. She is also bossy and we've played games like taking turns putting lego pieces on and we start the lego tower again if she tells me what color to take or where to put it. That has gone a long way in changing her behavior but timeouts etc. didn't do much.

On that note, Libby has just informed me that it's a waste of the day to stare at a screen, so gotta go! I think if you don't punish a lot and you try to minimize the power dynamic, they don't get that parents are the only ones who are 'allowed' to come up with fishy discipline schemes. Think of it as a compliment on how empowered your kids feel in the family

[LynnS6]

I vote fast learners! My kids did this and I never saw this as mocking. Cognitively, they're not developed enough to do that in such a subtle way. They're just trying out something new that they've seen you do.

Have you read "How to Talk So Your Children Will Listen (and Listen So Your Children Will Talk)" by Faber and Mazlish? If not, I highly recommend it. Your older children are at just the right age for a lot of the ideas in that book to work. It will help give you and them a vocabulary to talk about feelings and frustrations.

So, when your son said "that's one mum and if you say it again you have to go to your room" you can respond, "it sounds like you're mad at me for saying that." You don't have to give in, but you can acknowledge their feelings. It sounds like your boys are bright and verbal.

As someone with bright and verbal kids (and as a former bright, verbal kid myself), I can tell you that it's important to acknowledge the validity of their feelings. Once you do that, you also need to give them tools for expressing themselves. I always got into trouble for being 'sassy', and I got so frustrated because no one acknowledged that I had a valid point. "How to Talk So Your Children Will Listen" gives you and them those tools. Very often having their feelings acknowledged helps my kids move on.

finally, have you ever been screened postpartum/pre-partum depression? It's hard to judge over the internet, but anger at your other children is a very common symptom of PPD. You've had a ton of stress in your life - twins, followed by 2 pregnancies.

You have 4 kids under 5. That's a LOT to deal with. Make sure that you take care of yourself, because without good self care, you can't be a good parent. When do you get a break? Who's there to help you?

[vali_babes]

Thanks so much for your replies. I am re-reading "how to talk so kids will listen..." at the moment. I just find it soooo hard to put the new words into practice in the moment when i need them. I need a parenting group based on that book to work out in advance what to say in certain situations. I also have the sibling rivalry book and am going to read it again next.

I guess PPD is a possibility. I dont know when baby blues crosses over to PPD but after all 3 pregnancies I have been very emotional for several weeks - much longer with the twins.

I agree about them being too young to really mock me - it just feels like that. I dont like the counting to 3 but everything was so out of control and now things feel a little calmer. We dont use it very often and it does help with some situations.

I am also encouraging them to talk to each other BEFORE they start hitting each other. It slowly seems to be sinking in...