4yo not recognizing numbers "10" "11" and "12" ?

[UrbanSimplicity]

Hi - I am posting here because I'd like to see what parents from different 'schools' of thought have to say - our philosophy is a sort of unschooliong/waldorf combo of let the child lead and don't push academics too early. Still, my 4y4m old dd has had lots of exposure to numbers, we sometimes draw them on the chalk board, she has traced them in workbooks, can count up to 29ish, with a few occasional omissions along the way. That being said, I know most children of this age have WAY mofre exposure (through tv, for example) than she has.

Recently she expressed interest in learning to tell time - I know its a little early for this but my husband is a watchmaker and we own 2 watch repair stores, so it's part of our life. We went over some basics, which was going great but recognizing 10, 11, and 12 are constant stumbling blocks. I told her if she wants to learn to tell time, we need to back up a step and make sure she can readily identify all numbers up to 12.

We have flashcards that have the number and a picture of 'x' amount of objects. She sometimes mixes up 6 and 9, but seems to be making improvement there. But 10, 11, 12 - she just says "i don't know / remember" and needs to count the objects. It seems a little weird that this morning we went over it a bunch of times - she was very into it - and then tonight we see a '10' and she flat out says "i don't know" ??

her motivation is there, i am not pushing her to learn something that is of no interest to her. . . but her recall / recognition is just not happening. should i be worried?

TIA!

[Grace and Granola]

I have heard some advice for kids that routinely skip certain numbers like 15 or 16, that you should help them practice counting just up to that number and stop. Maybe you could try something similar. Could you just work on 10? Does she write numbers yet? Could she practice writing or tracing or pointing to numbers just to 10 to see if she can master that and then move on to 11?

I don't think it's abnormal for a young 4 not to grasp those numbers. I'm sure in time time it will just click!

[Drummer's Wife]

Sounds normal to me. My 5 yo (who was in pre-k last year) doesn't always get 11 and 12 right, and he can't tell time on an analog clock just yet. He was not "behind" at all throughout the school year, and is starting Montessori next month. I'm definitely not worried.

[astra]

I would not worry about it yet. My son is 5 and I'm not sure he can even count reliably to 20 yet. And he does not recognize many numbers past ten.

[staceychev]

Sounds pretty normal to me. My daughter is pretty bright, just turned five and has been counting to 100 unassisted for at least six months. But I remember that in the first half of her fourth year, she was still struggling with recognizing double digit numbers. I think it's more of a leap to recognize the numbers printed out than it is to remember the word to use in counting. If it's important to your family, keep working on the visual recognition in a low-stress way. She'll get it.

[AllisonR]

I have an idea. Discuss the theory behind the number system - in a "low tech" way. When DS learned his numbers, he didn't automatically grasp 10, 11, 12, 13... but somehow he understood the pattern - 1and0, 1and1, 1and2, 1and3... 2and1, 2and2..... I don't remember if I taught him that or someone else did, but he understood that a lot easier than just the numbers 10,11....

[geekgolightly]

My DS loved this book and I think it was responsible for helping him learn numbers past 9.

http://www.amazon.com/Teeth-Tails-Te.../dp/0762421002

[pixilixi]

Um, our ds is about the same age and has also become interested in telling time, and plays a lot with various toy and old clocks we have around the house.

He doesn't really count well past fifteen, and neither does he really visually recognise numbers past 9 out of context, BUT, he does know that the hand moves 'clockwise' and the 10 comes after 9, 11 comes after 10 and he knows that 12 is the number at the top. I'm sure he wouldn't know 13 if it was in front of him, but for the sake of time, it doesn't matter!

He is starting to get the concept of ten being a 1 then an 0, etc. But, we don't 'work' on it per se, just talk about numbers when he asks for a purpose. It will click one day. I might add, we are a strongly unschool-leaning family!

Oh, and I think it's cool that your dd is interested in what is your family business!

[mariskamom]

I agree with the others that I wouldn't worry about it at this age. I will say though that my daughter LOVES to play number bingo. I bought a game on Amazon.com that is a bingo game for numbers 1-20. I hate flashcards but bingo is fun, allows for turntaking and interaction.

[nextcommercial]

I would play some fun games. But, not push it or use flash cards.

Dominoes (the white ones with the colored dots) are great for learning numbers. She won't see the number 12, but she'll experience what 12 dots looks like. She'll be able to understand the amount even if she hasn't connected it to an actual number yet.

I don't know what games there are that go up to #12, but, you could make a memory game using tag board cards and write the numbers on them.

[One_Girl]

My dd didn't know several of her numbers until the end of kindergarten despite a lot of exposure and direct teaching so I don't think you should worry. If she still has a hard time in a few years then I think you should start worrying. There are a lot of fun number books that go above 10. If you ask the children's librarian she should be able to direct you to some good ones.

[LynnS6]

My favorite site for this kind of information is the PBS Development Tracker. http://www.pbs.org/parents/childdevelopmenttracker/

According to it: "During the second half of this year, a few four-year-olds will be able to accurately read multidigit numerals up to "19.""

what that means is that most kids this age can't do that.

From your post it sounds like her actual number sense is great -- she has reliable one-to-one correspondence for numbers up to 12 (or higher?). That's a concept that a lot of kids are still working on in kindergarten. Learning to read the numbers will come in time.

[cappuccinosmom]

Sounds normal. Nothing to worry about.

I think for some kids that range of numbers, and even the teens, can be confusing. My 7 yo still mixes up 12 and 20 in writing and in speech. 11 and 12 really make no sense in the number pattern when you say them verbally (they're after ten but they don't use "teen" even though the rest of that group of ten does). I think that can contribute to confusion and make it hard to cement the numbers into a kid's brain.

[UrbanSimplicity]

Thanks so much - this has been both helpful and reassuring!

[asraidevin]

Teaching those numbers are very difficult. I know where I was an EA, our students needed to know them by the end of grade one.

The teacher I worked with complained about how illogical the system is. In japanese they have a more logical system where eleven is said as ten-one, twelve is ten-two and so on.

[shah]

try Kumon math classes for kids. they also sell kumon mathbook in bearns and nobles. Kumon dayly math worksheets are great. It helped a lot to my son.

I also like starfall.com

[LynnS6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shah 

try Kumon math classes for kids. they also sell kumon mathbook in bearns and nobles. Kumon dayly math worksheets are great. It helped a lot to my son.

I also like starfall.com

Just a note that Kumon is the antithesis of unschooling and waldorf, so the OP may really not want to go there. Heck, I'm a pretty traditional public schooling parent and I won't do Kumon. For two interesting articles on Kumon:

http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/cradles-of-eminence.html -- my favorite quote from this is: "If you really learn more about the childhoods of men and women who would late  become eminent, the common factors were more that they were allowed to do what they wanted to do and immerse themselves in whatever interesting subject or idea struck them at the time. It looks very different from this scheduled routine of Junior Kumon, karate classes, and after preschool tutoring all before the age of 7. "

A NY Times article on Kumon: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/fashion/with-kumon-fast-tracking-to-kindergarten.html?_r=1

[JudiAU]

We work numbers into our everyday lives because I think math is fun and I want my kids to think it is fun too. And they do. (And not because I view my almost two year old as an economist-in-training). DS could recognize the alphabet by sight and numbers 1-20 right around the time he turned 2. At just turned 4, he has taught himself to write most numbers because he likes to draw and numbers can be part of the story. (i.e. two monsters on the side of the paper vs. three pirates on the other side of the paper with the numbers on top). I think he is within normal range. Not knowing them is probably within normal range.

He does have a few workbooks, Kumon and other brands, that have developed skills he taught himself  (i.,e. cutting, mazes, connect the dot, connect the alphabet letter, dotted letters and numbers to practice drawing have rotated in and out). We go to a Reggio preschool that would never do anythign from a workbook. I buy them because he loves them. Also, as a media-free family, it is nice to be able to whip out somethign and guarantee myself a full hour of peace when I need it. (having a random skill building book that takes an hour or two to complete is entirely different then some sort of weekly class with homework. Yuck.)

Waldorf/Unschooling doesn't mean that you can't use teaching aids to help a child learn something that they wish to learn. Different materials will interest a child at different points. Shouldn't unschooling leave you free to try lots of different materials and methods to see what interests your kids.  I'm not personally suggesting you use them, they didn't actually teach my son the concepts, just that you be open as you look at various resources. (Ha, ha. Says the mom who would die on her sword rather than buy something with a licensed character or a video...)

Finally, a  couple of picture books with math concepts that you might want to work in the rotation, Chicka Chicka 1 2 3, Anno's Counting Book, The Real Princess, and 365 Penguins.

[meemee]

i will say take a break from learning numbers. meaning dont focus on it. from single to double it takes them a while to make the shift.

what i would do (since i remember they are so more mechanical at that age instead of academic) is focus her energy on the actual watch repair. if you dont already do that. show her how gears work. at that age they looooooove miniatures so a look behind the scenes of wrist watches will be fabulous.

i grew up with a watch maker uncle and since he didnt know how to relate to children he would treat us like adults and explain things. he had a lot of patience. he is one of my favourite persons from childhood. i still specially love the cuckoo clocks. he died before i turned 5 and i still remember him crystal clear all these years later.

come back to numbers later and suddenly u will notice - booom!!! ur child gets it. 

[dovey]

I could have written the same thread.  My 5 year old daughter has such a hard time with 10, 11, and 12!  She can do the other teens, but these are much more difficult.  Here is one of the games that we play.

-Take paper bags and number them from 1 to 20.  Set them up in order along a counter or around a table.  Put a tiny object in one of them (we sometime use a chocolate chip, but a little animal or something similar would work too.)  The child has to figure out which bag the object is in by asking questions such as:  "Is the number bigger than 14?"  If the answer is no, then all the bags with a number greater than 14 can be swept to the floor.  If the answer is yes, then all numbers 14 and lower can be swept to the floor.  This type of question is repeated until the correct bag is the only one left.