Liver Life by bioray? and other questions genetics related

[gigismom]

i have been busy the past couple of weeks and haven't been on in awhile. ds had an appt with his doctor the end of june. she wants us to increase his enzymes and viracen to 2x per day (1/2 capsule each time). we are currently doing this 1x per day. i have not increased it yet. i am hesitant because when we first started the enzymes and viracen he had an initially significant reaction (bad sleep, crazy behaviour and loose poop) followed by a more drawn out reaction that included kind of crazy behaviour and stuttering. the stuttering is now gone completely and he seems to have taken a language leap lately, talking in more sentences and way more vocab. in the past he had taken b 12 drops and folinic acid drops which basically stopped his histamine reactions. i changed the brand of b12 and got thorne folate a few weeks back in an effort to save some money. he is now reacting again (skin issues, sneezing, histamine-type reactions). i assumed that this meant that i needed to tweak the dosages on the b12 and folate. i upped the folate to 1/2 a capsule and he FREAKED OUT! trantrum city and bossing everyone around... not pleasant. I stopped that completely and he calmed down but the reactions continued. Anyway, i did not want to up the enzymes and viracen until i had the b12 and folinic acid again. i well functioning methyl-cycle will help process out toxins right? I purchased our previous brand drops and he started on that again today. i want to wait a few days and then up the enzyme. his doc also suggested a supp called liver life by bioray to help with the detox that is likely to occur when we start killing off gut bugs again. anyone ever use this? any experience or knowledge with it's ingredients? it sounds good from the description but i am hesitant as always because he is so sensitive. also, when we first started the enzymes and viracen his poops became closer together (every 2 days or so). they are now spaced out again to every 4 to 5 days. this saddens me so much. is this just an indication that it is time to move up the dosages of the enzymes and viracen?

Also, i tried to swim my way through the genetics thread to answer this question myself, but i just don't have time to do so... why would he react soooo severely to the mthf-folate? what does this say about his genetics? also does the fact that the b12 (he takes methyl and adenosyl) works so well for him say something obvious that might be a piece to this puzzle to help me understand all of this?

also... since this has taken a genetics turn.... my dd2 also takes adenosyl b12 only. she was muscle tested for both b12's and only the adenosyl came back as helpful for her. when she is taking this and the folinic acid her allergies essentially go away. chronic eczema is gone and she does not sneeze anymore. when i put her on methyl b12 tabs and thorne folate everything came back. did i just not have the dosages right or does this say something about her genetics that might also help figure out ds?

fwiw...my eczema came back when off of the b12 drops and on the methyl b12 tabs.

lots of questions hidden in there... thanks for find them and helping me out as usual

jen

[mamafish9]

Sounds like you have genetics for all three that need lots of B12, and too many methyl groups isn't helpful. Stick with what works!!

Folinic acid and mthf folate are different, and some people need more of one, some the other, some need both. Also, quantity matters. And, mthf folate is a methyl donor, just like methyl B12 - so my first guess is that your son needs folinic/folate, but he can't handle too many methyl donors. 1/2 cap of thorne folate would cause a similar reaction for my kid (he doesn't tolerate methyl donors well either). I think you need small amounts of folinic (there are other options besides expensive drops), and lots of hydroxy & adenosyl B12. If you stop methyl B12, he may be able to handle some mthf folate.

Once you have his B12 back up, I'd try a little GABA, and see if that helps with poop frequency.

And I personally wouldn't do liverlife (which definitely mobilizes metals for many), or more viracen, or anything else until he was pooping daily. I think your detox experience followed by a language leap suggests he really needs those things, but if he's not pooping, you're not clearing the mobilized toxins well, which is a lot more painful for him.

[TamiW]

Hi Jen,
I work as BioRay's Child Specialist. I saw your post and would like to assist you in utilizing the products efficiently.

i have been busy the past couple of weeks and haven't been on in awhile. ds had an appt with his doctor the end of june. she wants us to increase his enzymes and viracen to 2x per day (1/2 capsule each time). we are currently doing this 1x per day. i have not increased it yet. i am hesitant because when we first started the enzymes and viracen he had an initially significant reaction (bad sleep, crazy behaviour and loose poop) followed by a more drawn out reaction that included kind of crazy behaviour and stuttering. the stuttering is now gone completely and he seems to have taken a language leap lately, talking in more sentences and way more vocab.

***That's wonderful that he's talking so much better. Nice work. Stuttering can be from high ammonia/detoxing too quickly. It often means there's a back up in the system. The bad sleep if waking between 1-3am indicates the liver is working too hard in Traditional Chinese Medicine.

in the past he had taken b 12 drops and folinic acid drops which basically stopped his histamine reactions. i changed the brand of b12 and got thorne folate a few weeks back in an effort to save some money. he is now reacting again (skin issues, sneezing, histamine-type reactions). i assumed that this meant that i needed to tweak the dosages on the b12 and folate. i upped the folate to 1/2 a capsule and he FREAKED OUT! trantrum city and bossing everyone around... not pleasant. I stopped that completely and he calmed down but the reactions continued. Anyway, i did not want to up the enzymes and viracen until i had the b12 and folinic acid again. i well functioning methyl-cycle will help process out toxins right?

Yes, MB12/Folate help with methylation but there are other ways you can do this if he's become sensitive to B12/Folate. He may be like my son, an undermethylator/high histamine kid that regresses with B12 and folate but does beautifully with methionine, SAMe and the other recommended supplements I've linked to below. Like your son, my son initially did very well with MB12 but after a certain time, he began to regress with his behaviors (not cognitively). I think there's a saturation point that we reach where all of a sudden it's too much. High histamines for my son were worse than yeast, bacteria and food infractions combined.

Please look at the following info From Pfeiffer Treatment Center/Dr William Walsh

http://www.alternativementalhealth.c...alshMP.htm#Mer
Subsequent research has indicated that the improvements are due to normalizing the methyl/folate ratio. This ratio is important in the BH4 rate-controlling step in catecholamine synthesis (dopamine & norepinephrine). Also, methyl/folate abnormalities can impact genetic expression of many biochemicals. At any rate, too much methyl results in overproduction of DA and NE, and vice versa.

Also, a serious overload of homocysteine (homocysteinuria) can result in symptoms quite identical to paranoid schizophrenia. Folic Acid & B-12 serve to lower HCy levels.

One thing that is absolutely certain is that methionine and/or SAMe usually harm low-histamine (overmethylated persons)..... but are wonderful for high-histamine (undermethylated) persons. The reverse in true for histadelic (undermethylated) persons, who thrive on methionine, SAMe, Ca and Mg..... but get much worse if they take folates & B-12 which can increase methyl trapping.

I guess the bottom line is that undermethylated persons generally exhibit very elevated folate levels.... and these persons get worse if additional folate is given.

I purchased our previous brand drops and he started on that again today. i want to wait a few days and then up the enzyme. his doc also suggested a supp called liver life by bioray to help with the detox that is likely to occur when we start killing off gut bugs again. anyone ever use this?

Basically, Liver Life will open up the detox pathways and allow toxins to be excreted efficiently. When our liver is functioning at optimal levels, we are more efficient at filtering out yeast, bacteria, heavy metals, chemicals, viruses, metabolic waste, etc. You want to make sure you can drain acidic waste efficiently and that phase I &II liver detox pathways are in balance prior to and during detox. Aggravations during detox means that you are mobilizing more toxins than the organs can comfortably excrete. By decongesting the liver, you increase the liver’s ability to decrease the body’s toxic burden. The liver is the only organ which can clean the blood and impacts every physiological process in the body, so as you continue to detox, you want to make sure the body’s main filter is supported.

The fact that your son is so sensitive to detox, his bowels are not moving daily and he's waking at night would point to liver congestion.

Is your child on the autism spectrum? Liver congestion is not uncommon in children on the spectrum. There is a study on pubmed called: Autism: Xenobiotic Influence. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9664646 Out of 20 ASD individuals tested every single one had liver detoxification profiles outside of normal range.

Optimizing elimination organs (liver, kidney, bowels) prior to and during detox is essential to detoxing efficiently.

any experience or knowledge with it's ingredients? it sounds good from the description but i am hesitant as always because he is so sensitive.

You start very slow and ramp up as tolerated. If you notice any cold/flu symptoms, rash, irritability, it means the dose is too high. Lower his dose, and wait longer before you increase his dose. If he is very sensitive, I would recommend putting 1 drop of the Liver Life in 4-6 ounces of water and giving him half in the morning and half in the afternoon. Then ramp up by 1 drop every 3 days.

also, when we first started the enzymes and viracen his poops became closer together (every 2 days or so). they are now spaced out again to every 4 to 5 days. this saddens me so much. is this just an indication that it is time to move up the dosages of the enzymes and viracen?

In Traditional Chinese medicine, sluggish bowels indicate a congested liver. You do want to get his bowels moving daily before starting Liver Life. I'd recommend oxypowder as it's very effective in moving the bowels. Also adding in some fresh squeezed lemons in water is a great way to increase hydrochloric acid, cleanse the kidneys and restore pH.

Also, i tried to swim my way through the genetics thread to answer this question myself, but i just don't have time to do so... why would he react soooo severely to the mthf-folate? what does this say about his genetics? also does the fact that the b12 (he takes methyl and adenosyl) works so well for him say something obvious that might be a piece to this puzzle to help me understand all of this?

also... since this has taken a genetics turn.... my dd2 also takes adenosyl b12 only. she was muscle tested for both b12's and only the adenosyl came back as helpful for her. when she is taking this and the folinic acid her allergies essentially go away. chronic eczema is gone and she does not sneeze anymore. when i put her on methyl b12 tabs and thorne folate everything came back. did i just not have the dosages right or does this say something about her genetics that might also help figure out ds?

I would say if she's benefitting from SAMe vs the B12/folate, just continue the SAMe. Sounds like they are similar to my son with the methyl trapping/b12 that Dr Walsh discovered. Follow your children's lead. They will tell you when something is appropriate for them or not by the way they feel.

fwiw...my eczema came back when off of the b12 drops and on the methyl b12 tabs.

B12 vs methyl B12? So you do okay with straight B12 but methyl B12 you don't? Just want to make sure I'm clear.

Please let me know if I can be further assistance. You are doing a great job asking questions and sorting through everything.

Also, I invite you to join BioRay's yahoo group where many parents are utilizing the products and share their experiences. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/BioRaynaturaldetox

Have a wonderful day.
TamiWilken
BioRay, Inc.
Child Specialist

[TamiW]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

And I personally wouldn't do liverlife (which definitely mobilizes metals for many),

Liver Life does not mobilize heavy metals. It is a liver restorative remedy which assists with filtering acidic waste, restoring pH, normalizing liver enzymes, balancing Phase I and II liver detoxification pathways and optimizing liver function.

or more viracen, or anything else until he was pooping daily.

I completely agree. Get the bowels moving daily before starting Liver Life or any other remedy you decide to use. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, no progress can be made if the bowels are not moving and sluggish bowels are often the result of a sluggish liver. So addressing the bowels first with something like oxypowder, aloe vera juice, high fiber foods, ex magnesium, high dose vitamin C, or whatever you know works for you is appropriate.

My best,
TamiW
BioRay, Inc.

[gigismom]

I wanted to thank you both for your thoughts. I have not made any changes yet except he's on his old b12 and folinic acid. He is once again my sweet boy and has stopped scratching which means him sleep better. Liver Life sounds great but I definitely don't want to stir anything else up, just help him get rid of whatever is stirred up by killing more gut bugs. As far as increasing poop frequency, that is the whole point to all of this. Mag keeps it soft because the longer it hangs out in the bowell the harder it is. However, mag doesn't really make his poops closer together. I guess I need to try some gaba or something else. I am just reluctant to give him something else, he's already taking a lot.

Mamafish...what brand and how much gaba would you suggest? Is this one of those start slowly and build up? Any adverse side effects to watch for? What is gaba, anyway? I need to reread the gaba thread... Also he takes mindlinx probiotics which have l-glutamine. Does this throw off his gaba requirement?

Jen

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by TamiW

Liver Life does not mobilize heavy metals. It is a liver restorative remedy which assists with filtering acidic waste, restoring pH, normalizing liver enzymes, balancing Phase I and II liver detoxification pathways and optimizing liver function. .

That is not the experience of a lot of users in autism forums. At the very least, "balancing liver pathways" and "optimizing liver function" could both increase metals detox. I am very skeptical of substances that claim to mobilize, and those that claim NOT to mobilize, without some objective data.

Originally Posted by gigismom

I wanted to thank you both for your thoughts. I have not made any changes yet except he's on his old b12 and folinic acid. He is once again my sweet boy and has stopped scratching which means him sleep better. Liver Life sounds great but I definitely don't want to stir anything else up, just help him get rid of whatever is stirred up by killing more gut bugs. As far as increasing poop frequency, that is the whole point to all of this. Mag keeps it soft because the longer it hangs out in the bowell the harder it is. However, mag doesn't really make his poops closer together. I guess I need to try some gaba or something else. I am just reluctant to give him something else, he's already taking a lot.

Mamafish...what brand and how much gaba would you suggest? Is this one of those start slowly and build up? Any adverse side effects to watch for? What is gaba, anyway? I need to reread the gaba thread... Also he takes mindlinx probiotics which have l-glutamine. Does this throw off his gaba requirement?

Jen

Mindlinx has glutamine, which converts to glutamate in the body. If he's not pooping because his gaba is low, that's tipping the teeter totter even further the wrong way. NOW makes gaba, just get a plain one without anything else in it. If you give too much, you will see sleepy or cranky tired. I see it right away, or after a day or two of build up at the longest.

For probiotics, if you like pharmax, you could switch to their intensive. I use custom probiotics, a lot cheaper!

[TamiW]

That is not the experience of a lot of users in autism forums. At the very least, "balancing liver pathways" and "optimizing liver function" could both increase metals detox. I am very skeptical of substances that claim to mobilize, and those that claim NOT to mobilize, without some objective data.

My apologies if I misunderstood you. I thought you were mistaking Liver Life for a heavy metal chelator. You are correct. A healthy functioning liver filters out acidic waste including yeast, bacteria, heavy metals, chemicals, pesticides, byproducts of metabolism, etc from the body. When the liver is dysfunctional or congested, these build up inside the body. So as you optimize the liver's function, you will see an increase in acidic waste being excreted including heavy metals.


It’s recommended to start Liver Life slow, and ramp up as tolerated. Draining acids too quickly can cause excess to be released through the lungs (cold/flu symptoms) or skin (rash). And for kids who cannot communicate that their throat hurts or they feel unwell, this can cause an increase in behaviors/sensory issues. This will go away by lowering the dose, making sure the bowels are moving daily, including activated charcoal, staying properly hydrated (fresh squeezed lemons are great for this) and/or ramping up more slowly.


We have pre/post labs showing Liver Life assists with decreasing food sensitivities, improves fungal metabolites, fatty acid metabolism, nutrient absorption, liver enzymes, and increases glutathione levels here:http://www.bioraynaturaldetox.com/ar...lab-tests.aspx
And here: http://www.bioraynaturaldetox.com/ar...default.aspx#4

I hope this is helpful.

TamiW
BioRay, Inc.
Child Specialist

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by TamiW

My apologies if I misunderstood you. I thought you were mistaking Liver Life for a heavy metal chelator. You are correct. A healthy functioning liver filters out acidic waste including yeast, bacteria, heavy metals, chemicals, pesticides, byproducts of metabolism, etc from the body. When the liver is dysfunctional or congested, these build up inside the body. So as you optimize the liver's function, you will see an increase in acidic waste being excreted including heavy metals.

It’s recommended to start Liver Life slow, and ramp up as tolerated. Draining acids too quickly can cause excess to be released through the lungs (cold/flu symptoms) or skin (rash). And for kids who cannot communicate that their throat hurts or they feel unwell, this can cause an increase in behaviors/sensory issues. This will go away by lowering the dose, making sure the bowels are moving daily, including activated charcoal, staying properly hydrated (fresh squeezed lemons are great for this) and/or ramping up more slowly.

In that case we totally agree . For those of us with kids with fragile systems (or the flock of pg mamas we have on this board), I just didn't want them thinking Liver Life wouldn't move metals. In my experience, even very basic organ supports can move lots of junk as the organ starts functioning better. Long term, this is a great thing - but yeah, you don't want to hit it hard, especially with a child. And that's why my advice to Jen was to get her son's bowels moving first, so that any toxins stirred up has a path to clear. I'm a big fan of liver supports, I just believe in respecting them properly .

[TamiW]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

In that case we totally agree . For those of us with kids with fragile systems (or the flock of pg mamas we have on this board), I just didn't want them thinking Liver Life wouldn't move metals. In my experience, even very basic organ supports can move lots of junk as the organ starts functioning better. Long term, this is a great thing - but yeah, you don't want to hit it hard, especially with a child. And that's why my advice to Jen was to get her son's bowels moving first, so that any toxins stirred up has a path to clear. I'm a big fan of liver supports, I just believe in respecting them properly .

Agreed! That's very good advice. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, no progress can be made if the bowels are not moving.
You have a wonderful day.
-Tami Wilken
BioRay, Inc.
Child Specialist

[gigismom]

just thought i'd update and get some more feedback... I spent some time examining what we were doing. He has been back on the old b12/folate doses for a couple of weeks now and he is sleeping beautifully, no scratching or sneezing or anything else I might label as a histamine type reaction. His skin is clear. His doctor had recommended supplemental stomach acid (pepsin) a while back. I did not take this recommendation at the time, though I did buy the pepsin. I was reluctant to be that aggressive and chose instead to supplement his zinc, which was low on blood test. As mentioned, he has been taking the enzymes (digest gold) and his doctor wants us to increase that to 2x per day. Anyway, I was reluctant to cause more die off if he wasn't ready for it. Once the b12 was in his system for awhile I decided to try the pepsin in an effort to get his own enzymes flowing better. Wouldn't you know... he had a mini die off. No sleep disturbance, very, very minimal stuttering for like half of a day and pooping EVERY day! He did this for about a week and now has not pooped since Monday (it's wednesday). I am in such a bad cycle.... We are doing all of this because the kid poops infrequently yet I am reluctant to up the enzymes and cause more die off if he isn't pooping frequently. I looked into the gaba and am not convinced that will help. He does not have any classic signs of being a kid who is over stimulated easily. He is generally calm and can sit and listen to books, play indep or with his sisters for extended periods etc... The only time he has any behavioural issues is when he is reacting to something or in a die off pattern. I still need to read the gaba thread but my personal computer time is soooo limited. I am rambling.. sorry

so I was thinking to start the liver life very slowly as recommended 1 drop in some water spread out over the course of the day and build up. After a few days (how long and how much to build up to?) I can start the enzymes 2x per day. I think if I increase the enzymes, he will poop frequently because this is what he has done both times he has had die off. If he doesn't poop frequently at that point I will have to resort to the liquid suppository that we both hate but is very effective and the least traumatic approach (compared to an enema which I refuse to submit him too or leaving him constipated which is horrible). any thoughts on this plan?

thanks for your feedback

jen

[healnutrition]

Did your son's stuttering stop?  Did you find which vitamins triggered it?