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SO of Playground Drama Thread: Responsibility

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
The discussion in the Playground Drama thread I recently started has me pondering the issue of responsibility. Here are a couple of situations that have me examining my previous assumptions re: where my responsibility ends and someone else's begins:

1) I've always taught my girls to be mindful of smaller children when they are running around and playing on equipment in the same space -- but I've always thought of swinging as an activity that has a self-defined space. It's been cool with me if my child wants to swing with her eyes closed and experience the sensation of flying ...

I understand that small children are sometimes liable to wander in front of a swing without paying attention, but I've always felt it was up to parents to protect and guide their small children as I did my own when they were tiny -- not up to the children enjoying the swings to make sure that small children don't get kicked.

Someone was recently upset that her 3yo sister walked in front of my dd's swing and got kicked. She demanded an apology from my dd, who was surprised to learn that she'd kicked someone; she hadn't felt her foot connect with anything, and naturally hadn't seen anything as her eyes were closed.

2) When my children are riding bikes, I encourage them to be aware of others in their path and to avoid hitting them -- but a child recently let his tiny (chihuahua mix) dog loose to run at our local park, and the dog gravitated toward running right up close to the wheels of my daughter's bike while she was riding around the track. She kept trying to veer away from the dog, but, in dog-like fashion, he kept running into her space and getting right up close to her wheels.

The boy later complained that dd had run over his dog. I honestly don't feel that dd was responsible for whatever may have happened. She was trying really hard to bicycle away from the dog because she didn't want him to get hurt, but she also wanted to keep on riding her bike.

In both cases, the people accusing my daughter were children themselves -- a 12yo supervising her younger sister and a little boy out with his tiny dog. I understand that a 12yo wants to chat with her friends, not actively supervise her tiny sister, so it's not exactly fair to hold her responsible for her sister's safety.

I also understand that a young kid is going to think it's fun to bring his tiny dog to the playground, and then he's going to want to run off and play with his friends -- not watch over his dog and keep him out from under people's bicycle wheels.

Finally, I understand very well that the 12yo and the boy with the tiny dog are probably both liable to get blamed by their parents if something bad happens to their charges, so it's perfectly natural for them to look for someone else to pass the blame to.

I "get" all this, so I'm going to try to be more vigilant about preventing small children and animals from getting hurt at the park, NOT to the point of acting like "park police" and getting into other people's business -- mainly just for the purpose of getting along and avoiding more ridiculous accusations of my children.

I'm curious about other people's perceptions re: responsibility in the situations I described. Do some of you think my child or I were at least partly to blame for whatever harm may have occurred?
post #2 of 46
My DD just got kicked by her cousin while swinging, and I felt it was completely my/DD's fault. Not her cousin's. Sometimes there's only one way for a kid to learn not to stand or walk in front of the swingset, even if you tell them a million times. I never once felt it was the cousin's fault or her mom's.

Same with the dog issue. I remember riding bikes when I was younger and having dogs chase me. If you stop, they're going to jump on you anyway, and if you don't stop, you're going to run over them. Everyone loses either way, but it's really the dog's owner's responsibility to make sure their dog isn't annoying people or in danger. Or both.
post #3 of 46
When you're sitting on a swing in mid-swing, you have NO control over stopping or slowing down. I see that as entirely the pedestrian's responsibility to walk around the swing radius -- and in the case of a small child, the supervising adult's responsibility to help a small child navigate that situation.

Likewise, a person or animal on foot is more able to avoid a collision than a child on a bike in motion. It's the responsibility of the bike rider to ride in a safe area, but it's the responsibility of a pedestrian or animal owner to stay out of a biking area at a playground.

I really don't have any problem at this point fielding playground complaints. I was much more unsure of myself when my firstborn was a toddler; now I'm much more likely to advocate for my children when need be and I feel pretty confident in determining when that's necessary. I will happily turn that kind of complaint into a long, involved physics lesson for the complainant.
post #4 of 46
#1 IMO it's up to BOTH parties to watch out for each other, especially since your dd is 10 & not a 5yo. I'd expect a younger than 10yo to not be as careful while on a swing

#2 The child who owned/brought the dog should have stopped the dog. If the child wanted to play with his friends & not watch his dog he should have taken the dog home. Most play parks are NOT leash-free areas & the dog should have been under control with a leash.
post #5 of 46
It's the dog owners responsibility to keep their dog on a leash unless they are at an enclosed dog park. Not only can the dog get hurt but some kids are afraid or allergic of dogs.

When my DD used to get too close to people swinging I felt it was my responsibility to keep her from getting hit, not the other child swinging. An observant person can scoop up a toddler pretty fast if they are watching and staying close to the child.
post #6 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieMF View Post
#1 IMO it's up to BOTH parties to watch out for each other, especially since your dd is 10 & not a 5yo. I'd expect a younger than 10yo to not be as careful while on a swing
If you're swinging and some one steps right in front of you what can you do? It's not like you can stop in midair and there's nothing wrong with swinging with your eyes closed. I agree with the idea that swinging is an activity that has a self-defined space.
post #7 of 46
I'd say it's the child walking in front of the swings fault.

My daughter is 6 and was mid swing and this lady wasn't watching her newly walking toddler very well at all and my daughter ended up kicking her and making her fall. * i did have my daughter say she was sorry though *

I'd say it's the dog owners responsibility to make sure their dog doesn't get in a situation in which it could get hurt also.
post #8 of 46
Well, at age three... it's a learning lesson. "If I walk under the swing, I am going to get kicked". It could have been much worse, so it was a good lesson for the three year old.

The boy and the dog.... eh.. there's not much you can do except say to the boy, "bikes aren't safe for dogs to play next to". And, again, I bet the dog learned a lesson too.

It's O.K to say "I'm sorry your dog ran under her bike". But, I wouldn't give the responsibility to the bike rider. We all learn the hard way sometimes. How many times have you closed the car door on your finger? Once or twice before you learned to let go sooner... right?
post #9 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
When you're sitting on a swing in mid-swing, you have NO control over stopping or slowing down.
Thank you for pointing this out! That's exactly what I was thinking -- and even if my dd preferred swinging with her eyes open, she still wouldn't have been able to stop herself in midair.

Quote:
I see that as entirely the pedestrian's responsibility to walk around the swing radius -- and in the case of a small child, the supervising adult's responsibility to help a small child navigate that situation.
Yes, I agree so strongly with this! The hard part is that neither the small child or the dog had a supervising adult.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to be as in-tune as a parent would be in supervising a small child. On the one hand, I can understand her tendency to push the blame on my dd since she probably feels overloaded enough as it is with 3 younger siblings to care for.

On the other hand, I just found her behavior toward my dd rather unfair and annoying. But we are getting along better now.

I also think it's the little boy's parents' responsibility to set some boundaries about what situations a tiny dog should be taken into. We are thinking about getting a chihuahua ourselves, but have been holding off 'til our 5yo is a bit older since she is not always consistently gentle with animals yet.

Our 10yo was talking the other day about how fun it will be to take our future chihuahua to the playground, and I mentioned some of my concerns about bringing such a tiny dog around a bunch of kids. I don't see it as my children's responsibility to make the best decisions regarding the care of a pet...

So I don't blame the little boy for thinking it's cool to let doggie run and just forget about him for a while, and then getting alarmed and wanting to blame someone when it looks like the dog is limping, or whatever the problem was.

But, at the same time, it was annoying to have him try to pass the buck to my dd. Since we really love playing at our neighborhood playround, I feel like I'm needing to learn to navigate this situation where certain problems that are not my responsibility or my business are kind of getting foisted into my lap.

It is just very much the norm here for small children to be cared for by older children, and sometimes these older children aren't quite up to the task. So there we are.
post #10 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCaliMommy View Post
My daughter is 6 and was mid swing and this lady wasn't watching her newly walking toddler very well at all and my daughter ended up kicking her and making her fall. * i did have my daughter say she was sorry though *
Yes, my dd did apologize once she'd been made aware of what had happened, and I had no problem with her apologizing. It was just, LOL, this whole scenario that ensued because dd had been swinging with her eyes closed and HADN'T been aware of what happened.

So this 3yo's older sister takes one of dd's friends aside to tell her that she needs my dd to apologize and then it will be "over."

Now I'm kind of starting to laugh about it.
post #11 of 46
I put this on the other thread but I will put it here too.

It's the supervising adults responsibility to keep the 3yo out of harm, but sometimes people get distracted etc. Your DD should not be swinging with her eyes closed on a busy playground unless you are going to be there making sure that everyone is safe. She could have warned the 3yo and she also could have tucked her feet under the swing to avoid hitting her.

The dog. Yes it is the owners responsibility but your DD should also have called out to the boy to get his dog before he got hurt. If he didn't then it really isn't your DD fault.

In this world we can't always only be responsible for us. Our actions affect others. Sometimes other people need help. We need to think of others as well as of ourselves.
post #12 of 46
What I get from the thread is that people are weird everywhere. Most of the time this doesn't result in collisions, but sometimes it does. When it does, people will all want someone to blame.

With the dog I'm especially sympathetic though to the bike rider - I have a plate in my arm and a big scar thanks to a puppy that ran in front of my bike about 16 years ago - I had a bad fall and broke my arm badly.
post #13 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
What I get from the thread is that people are weird everywhere.
LOL. That's what I get from it too!

IMO, we are not talking a newly walking toddler here - a 3 yo is old enough to know they will get hit when they walk in front of a swing. If they want to do it anyway, and get hit, their problem. I agree with the others, even with eyes open, there is no way to stop a swing midair, no matter your age. And expecting other kids not swing, or only swing very very slowly, because 3 year olds are in the area, would be odd, IMO.
post #14 of 46
I remember getting kicked by someone swinging when I was a kid. It hurt, but I survived. It's just the nature of hanging out by the swings. I don't think a child should have to swing while vigilant of passersby. Kinda ruins the fun of swinging. Apologizing for an accident makes sense, but it sounds like there was a bit of drama over that. Am I wrong? If it's your daughters' friends, it's just normal for them to be a bit dramatic at that age.

I completely hold the dog owner responsible. I'm sure your town has a leash law. It protects the dogs and the kids. I take my dog to the park on occasion, but I let him run at the dog park first to get his energy out, then keep him on leash away from playing children. That's the job of a responsible pet owner.

Someone mentioned the need to take care and be mindful of others. I completely agree. No one lives in a bubble. However, it sounds like your daughter was doing what she could to avoid the dog, and she didn't see the three year old. I would just apologize and move on.
post #15 of 46
I think everybody will get hit/kicked by a swing eventually, one way or another. I know my DS1 has been, and I'm sure ds2 will be someday too. Its just a part of the learning process... mind you, I think it happened to ds1 around 2 not 3, and he's thus been far more 'aware' ever since. Definetly not the swingers fault though - the only thing your dd could have done, had her eyes been open was to say 'hey kid! watch out!!' and that very well may have helped.

Does your dd remember running over the dog? Cause' that seems lke something you'd notice/remember. And still would *not* be your dd's fault, IMO... If he didn't want his dog to get hit, he shouldn't let it chase people on bikes. DUh.
post #16 of 46
Thread Starter 
I think I'm at the place now of feeling that we should all be willing to make adjustments, within reason, to promote the greater good. I'm just not sure exactly where I personally draw the line when it comes to deciding which adjustments are reasonable, and which ones aren't.

I can't quite buy into the belief that the only time it's acceptable for a child to swing with her eyes closed, or climb up the slide (this may not have been mentioned on this thread), is if her family is the only family, or one of the few families, at the park.

Also, it just makes more logical sense to me for parents of toddlers to "up" the supervision of said toddlers, like I did with my own when they were that age, than it does for older kids to give up some of their enjoyment because they're expected to be watching, ready to fold up their legs or holler "look out" if a small child wanders too close to their swing.

My mind tells me that a one, two, or three-year-old will have just as much fun with Mommy or Daddy running around behind her and staying within arms reach, as she would if Mommy or Daddy were sitting off to the side and leaving it up to "the village" to look out for her safety.

Of course, not all 3yo's need that degree of supervision; I'm just talking about the ones who still tend to wander in front of swinging kids without thinking. Closer supervision by a parent doesn't dampen the fun of a toddler -- but expecting an older child to keep her eyes open and always be looking out for stray toddlers DOES dampen the fun of the older child, IMO.

I simply feel the most reasonable solution is for the person who chose to become a parent to BE the parent. Let the older kids have fun, let the toddlers have fun, and let the parents of toddlers run their buns off keeping them safe, LOL.

Actually, I've raised two children through this phase and I still have a big butt so it's not all that bad. For a season you feel like you'll never be that Mom on the bench drinking a latte and catching up on all the gossip, but it passes, unless you decide that you always want to have one in arms, and another one or two running around still in diapers, LOL. That's a valid choice, too, of course. And THEN you might work off that butt.

The real dilemma is that not all toddlers have Mommy or Daddy at the park to watch over them. Many of the little ones at our park are with older siblings, not adults.

So...I realize that it's not really fair to toddlers who don't have adult supervision to say, "Let's each just focus on our own kids and let these kids' parents supervise them from wherever on the planet they happen to be watching them through the telescope." Love dictates that we have to be willing to pick up others' slack sometimes.

We're all going to differ on where we personally decide to draw the line. We're never all going to agree 100% -- but I still think it's pretty darned interesting to talk about it and compare our views.

ETA: Also, I realize that sometimes even in spite of parental vigilance a toddler might walk in front of a swing and get kicked. And this probably IS a great learning experience. So I guess I shouldn't be TOO vigilant and ready to intervene -- not that I'd ever knowingly allow anyone to be hurt; I just don't want to turn into the playground police or anything, either. I want to mind my own business lovingly... now I think I'm getting punchy.
post #17 of 46
Children should not walk around swings that are being used. Very dangerous, and it's on them. It takes getting taught, and sadly my dd didn't learn until she did get clobbered by someone on a swing, but people on a swing aren't able to keep track of people wandering around the playground, and people wandering around can very easily avoid the swings. edited to add that upon reading a bit more of the thread, if a child isnt' old enough to avoid the swings, the child needs an adult watching him/her, and it's that person's responsibility to keep the child safe from things such as swings.

And dogs need to be kept on a leash at parks so they don't run off or get hurt by things like bikes. Unless it's one of those dog parks where it's set up for dogs.
post #18 of 46
IIRC from the other thread, the 3 y.o. walked in front of the swings before anyone was actually swinging. I can see how a small child may not notice she's walking where she shouldn't.

And yes, if the swinger's eyes were open, she could have avoided a collision if she had seen the child before she started swinging. Even if she was swinging in mid-swing, if her eyes are open and she saw someone walking in front, she could call out a warning that might avoid a collision.

Children shouldn't walk in front of swings.

Dog-owners should keep their dogs on leashes in the park.

Out in the world, people will do things they should not do. It's wise for everyone to expect the unexpected and take whatever steps they are able to prevent harm. When you take driving lessons, it's called defensive driving. Anticipate problems and act to avoid or minimize them before the problem occurs. Apply the same strategy to life. It's part of participating in and contributing to a safe, happy, well-working society. I'd even go so far as to say it's everyone's responsibility.

Talk of "responsibility" is often from the perspective of "liability", as if all of life is a civil lawsuit - two parties who shift the burden of duty of care so that one gets all the remedies and the other all the damages. I don't like living my life or even thinking about it that way. I prefer to consider my social world as a collaborative place, where everyone acts (or should act) to make it a good place live, without constant worry about who is responsible.

in any event, I think the focus on who is responsible for creating the problem is somewhat misguided, at least in the park playground context. While it's usually helpful to understand what happened, the focus should be on taking responsibility for resolving the problem. That is always the responsibility of both parties.
post #19 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post
in any event, I think the focus on who is responsible for creating the problem is somewhat misguided, at least in the park playground context.
This is such a great point! To just stop the blame game, accept that sometimes things will happen that shouldn't happen, and move on, realizing that different people have different perspectives on how far it's reasonable for them to be rearranging their lives in the event that someone else's toddler 'might' be walking someplace she shouldn't.

Quote:
While it's usually helpful to understand what happened, the focus should be on taking responsibility for resolving the problem. That is always the responsibility of both parties.
In the case of a toddler who walked in front of the swing and got hurt, I'd define the "both parties" as the toddler and her parent or caregiver. She needs comforting. She needs help learning how to prevent future swing kicks. And if, even after the experience, she's STILL wandering back in front of the swings, she needs closer supervision.

It's interesting how we agree on some points, but maybe differ on the specific constructions of the points.
post #20 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post
While it's usually helpful to understand what happened, the focus should be on taking responsibility for resolving the problem. That is always the responsibility of both parties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
In the case of a toddler who walked in front of the swing and got hurt, I'd define the "both parties" as the toddler and her parent or caregiver. She needs comforting. She needs help learning how to prevent future swing kicks. And if, even after the experience, she's STILL wandering back in front of the swings, she needs closer supervision.

It's interesting how we agree on some points, but maybe differ on the specific constructions of the points.
Well, I'd define "the problem" a little larger than you have. I think it's not just the injury to the child (such as it was), but the resulting conflict involving the caregiving sibling and the injured child and the swinger. After all, that's the problem that got the parent involved in the situation.

When arguments and disagreements arise, there may be one side that is more correct or more injured or more in the right or more in the wrong. If both sides aren't able to participate in resolving the disagreement and reconciling, it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. That's how feuds start (and wars - South Africa, Ireland, the Middle East, indigenous populations in former colonies....).

There is a huge emphasis on responsibility. It is important to acknowledge personal responsibility. I wish, however, that there was an equal emphasis on reconciliation.
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