I try so SOO hard to be AP, but apparently my child isn't on board. :|

[brokenheart]

She's 7. And she can be so difficult with me. Pushes all my buttons, and I often end up saying angry things (ranting for lack of a better word).

Anyway, tonight I need some ideas before she wakes up tomorrow....

Bottom line, we had a fun day planned today with friends. She often falls into mouthy/bratty behavior when we are out, so I told her if she behaves for today, we will go swimming tomorrow.

She did well. Good kid all day. But tonight before bed, she asked for a juice box. I said no (they are for camp and I always dilute the juice we drink at home). And it is right before bed (she has a very weak bladder). I gave her a small drink of our regular juice. She got so angry and said, "You are the stupidest mother EVER".

That is not ok. She's 7!! I can't imagine how she will feel entitled to speak to me when she's 12. I really think I'm a good mom....VERY fair, I think of her comfort, I make time for her, etc. But as soon as something doesn't go her way, she gets mean. So I calmly told her that there will be no swimming tomorrow now.

That is a natural consequence, right? I hate it because I have limited time off, and I really wanted to have a fun day with her tomorrow. But I have no idea what else to do! I certainly cannot allow her to act that way with me. This isn't a one-time thing....she is often mouthy with me (but not as bad as this).

[LynnS6]

If it were me, I'd go swimming tomorrow.

Look at this from another point of view: She'd been out all day, and it was the end of the day. She was tired, thirsty and cranky. Was it OK to say what she did? Nope, but I don't think it's worth canceling a swimming outing. It was one mistake after she'd had a very good day.

Maybe I'm more lenient than others, but 'mouthing off' doesn't bother me that much. It may help that I've got a 'weak filter' myself and I've had to work hard to be tactful. Heck, I even failed that a couple months ago at a faculty meeting. It was not one of my better days and I did apologize to my colleagues eventually.

I don't let my kids 'get away' with mouthing off, but I always give them a chance to rephrase. I model the rephrasing for them. I got yelled at a lot for 'being sassy', but they never told me what I was doing wrong or how I could fix it. In this case, I would have said "I can see that you're really mad, but I don't like to be called names. That's rude. You can tell me you're angry if you're angry." (How to Talk So Children Will Listen and Listen So Children Will Talk has been immensely helpful for me in learning to do this.)

She needs tools to learn to control her language. At 7, she's still very young. She's learning. She's very much a work in progress. If you expect perfection 24 hours a day, she won't ever be able to meet that will she? It looks like she needs to work on not being 'mouthy'. So, give her some tools to do that. That way, when she reaches 12, she'll have both the tools and the maturity to use those tools.

Tomorrow, I'd model how you recover when you've over-reacted. Say to her "I over-reacted last night when you were rude to me. You had a really good day yesterday and I think we should go swimming. We're also going to both work on being more polite to each other."

[midnightwriter]

Tomorrow, I'd model how you recover when you've over-reacted. Say to her "I over-reacted last night when you were rude to me. You had a really good day yesterday and I think we should go swimming. We're also going to both work on being more polite to each other."

This is actually a super important skill to model. I'd totally do this.

[brokenheart]

Thanks!! I have a hard time sometimes because I was raised completely different....not abusive at all, but it was fear-based parenting. If I ever spoke to my mom this way (even at 20!) I would have been slapped across the face. I would never dare! So sometimes I fear that I'm raising a "spoiled brat" and I'd better regain control before she gets into the pre-teen stage.

So anyway, thanks for giving me perspective. Overall she's a good kid. She's pretty difficult (moody, SPD, temper), but I love her.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

Thanks!! I have a hard time sometimes because I was raised completely different....not abusive at all, but it was fear-based parenting. If I ever spoke to my mom this way (even at 20!) I would have been slapped across the face. I would never dare! So sometimes I fear that I'm raising a "spoiled brat" and I'd better regain control before she gets into the pre-teen stage.

So anyway, thanks for giving me perspective. Overall she's a good kid. She's pretty difficult (moody, SPD, temper), but I love her.

DD (8) seems similar to yours (moody, explosive, highly sensitive). Several months ago we were stuck in a vicious circle of constant irritation with each other, and out of desperation I decided to impose "real" consequences. That would have been her first punishment. Of course she had experienced many things in the past that she perceived as punitive, but they weren't designed to be. This time I thought that maybe she needed a punishment, and it was to take her toy away. We talked about it. She ended up telling me that my strategy would have never worked! She was very logical and persuasive. I completely retracted, and we made peace. It was a great experience for both of us. And then she turned 8, and all of a sudden she is way more mature, is handling her moods better, and is a "new" person all of a sudden.

Have you read Hold on to your Kids by Gordon Neufeld? It talks about attachment with older children. Totally worth reading, one of the best books, actually re parenting.

Have a great day swimming tomorrow!

[heartmama]

At 7...honestly, we wouldn't go anywhere until we got the bottom of that attitude. I would need a sincere apology, heartfelt, not forced, and a sense that my child was really sorry over it--not due to punishment but do to a realization of how words like that hurt. Words like that are as hurtful as a slap in the face and I was very strict about that kind of violence by 7 years old. 7 is old enough to start taking some responsibility for how your actions impact other people. I don't want to go swimming with a person who hurts me without making it up to me--and yes I think 7 is when a kid can start comprehending this kind of concept. FWIW my son totally got this by 7, and for us it was super effective. I just did not engage in the way he wanted (happy, sunny mom ready for fun), I acted as somber as I felt, and he soon started to miss the good vibe, and wanted it back, and would come to me sincerely sad over the hurt he caused, and ready to say so, and ready to talk about what he did, and what he could do different next time.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

So anyway, thanks for giving me perspective. Overall she's a good kid. She's pretty difficult (moody, SPD, temper), but I love her.

The SPD makes me redouble my advice. Yes, I think that 7 is old enough to start taking some responsibility for your words, but if she's got SPD, she's also got difficulties in self-regulation.

After a long day out, her whole system may well be dysregulated. She's not in as much control as one might think. She needs help in coregulating her emotions. She needs your help to learn more appropriate ways of expressing herself.

I've got an SPD kid and a highly sensitive one. I expect meltdowns after big events. Ds (my SPD kid) is 9, and the meltdowns are coming less, but they're still there. Dd is 6 and has them regularly. We just got back from vacation and we have a bit of jet lag. Dd and ds both had two meltdowns yesterday. I had one.

Have you read:
The Challenging Child (one of my favorites)
Kids, Parents and Power Struggles (another favorite)
Sensational Kids (good for ideas on how to help SPD kids regulate themselves)
The Explosive Child

[LynnS6]

Oh, and I wanted to add that my SPD kid needs a lot more direct instruction on things (behavior, emotional expression) than my non-SPD kid. Just modeling does not work with him sometimes.

So, AP for ds looks different than it does for dd. Meeting his needs means giving direct instruction, and gasp, sometimes rewards/consequences. It's how he learns. Once he's learned, he's fine and then we can use the 'regular' GD methods. But he needs overt cognitive understanding first.

[Ruthla]

I think you're taking this too personally. "You're the worst mother ever" or "I hate you!!!" is kid-speak for "I'm angry at you right now." IMO, the only "logical consequence" there should be for that kind of "mouthing off" is that you tell her it hurts your feelings, and you're less "there" for her at bedtime that night because of those hurt feelings. If you were going to snuggle for a few minutes, you cut it short because she hurt your feelings and you're just not in a snuggly mood anymore. But if it was time for a quick hug goodnight, you still give her the hug if she wants it (this isn't an "offense" bad enough to break up the bedtime routine.)

I don't think you need to worry that you're raising a brat or that this incident will lead to her being an obnoxious teenager.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

If it were me, I'd go swimming tomorrow.

Look at this from another point of view: She'd been out all day, and it was the end of the day. She was tired, thirsty and cranky. Was it OK to say what she did? Nope, but I don't think it's worth canceling a swimming outing. It was one mistake after she'd had a very good day.

Maybe I'm more lenient than others, but 'mouthing off' doesn't bother me that much. It may help that I've got a 'weak filter' myself and I've had to work hard to be tactful. Heck, I even failed that a couple months ago at a faculty meeting. It was not one of my better days and I did apologize to my colleagues eventually.

I don't let my kids 'get away' with mouthing off, but I always give them a chance to rephrase. I model the rephrasing for them. I got yelled at a lot for 'being sassy', but they never told me what I was doing wrong or how I could fix it. In this case, I would have said "I can see that you're really mad, but I don't like to be called names. That's rude. You can tell me you're angry if you're angry." (How to Talk So Children Will Listen and Listen So Children Will Talk has been immensely helpful for me in learning to do this.)

She needs tools to learn to control her language. At 7, she's still very young. She's learning. She's very much a work in progress. If you expect perfection 24 hours a day, she won't ever be able to meet that will she? It looks like she needs to work on not being 'mouthy'. So, give her some tools to do that. That way, when she reaches 12, she'll have both the tools and the maturity to use those tools.

Tomorrow, I'd model how you recover when you've over-reacted. Say to her "I over-reacted last night when you were rude to me. You had a really good day yesterday and I think we should go swimming. We're also going to both work on being more polite to each other."

I love this post!


As a parent I vowed not do what my mom did with me, which was basically to play the, if you do this we will do that game. It never worked with me anyway, even as a kid I saw it as manipulative and refuse to play those games.

With my own daughter instead we discuss feelings and explain why something is important. We don't bargain although we do brainstorm together to find a solution that works for both of us.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

She's 7. And she can be so difficult with me. Pushes all my buttons, and I often end up saying angry things (ranting for lack of a better word).

Anyway, tonight I need some ideas before she wakes up tomorrow....

Bottom line, we had a fun day planned today with friends. She often falls into mouthy/bratty behavior when we are out, so I told her if she behaves for today, we will go swimming tomorrow.

She did well. Good kid all day. But tonight before bed, she asked for a juice box. I said no (they are for camp and I always dilute the juice we drink at home). And it is right before bed (she has a very weak bladder). I gave her a small drink of our regular juice. She got so angry and said, "You are the stupidest mother EVER".

That is not ok. She's 7!! I can't imagine how she will feel entitled to speak to me when she's 12. I really think I'm a good mom....VERY fair, I think of her comfort, I make time for her, etc. But as soon as something doesn't go her way, she gets mean. So I calmly told her that there will be no swimming tomorrow now.

That is a natural consequence, right? I hate it because I have limited time off, and I really wanted to have a fun day with her tomorrow. But I have no idea what else to do! I certainly cannot allow her to act that way with me. This isn't a one-time thing....she is often mouthy with me (but not as bad as this).

I personally wouldn't take her swimming, but I also don't think that external rewards like offering a treat is the right way to help kids learn how to behave appropriately. I also disagree with a PP that deliberately hurtful words are no big deal. There's no place for that kind of thing in a healthy loving relationship.

If it were me and one of my children had said that we'd talk about it. I would also see it as a sign I needed to work on our connection, to be more proactive around helping that child with expressing emotions appropriately and to be more tuned in during outings to help the child recenter themselves before their emotions and energy got ahead of them and they got to the "mouthy stage". I'd also try to set them up for success with shorter outings, with kids whose behavior doesn't set them off or wind them up.

Have you got some kind of code word to help her draw attention to her tone and her words? Have you role played different kinds of ways to express frustration in ways that aren't hurtful?

I'd suggest Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld if you haven't read it. It's written from a developmental attachment based perspective.

Good luck

[philomom]

Originally Posted by heartmama

At 7...honestly, we wouldn't go anywhere until we got the bottom of that attitude. I would need a sincere apology, heartfelt, not forced, and a sense that my child was really sorry over it--not due to punishment but do to a realization of how words like that hurt. Words like that are as hurtful as a slap in the face and I was very strict about that kind of violence by 7 years old. 7 is old enough to start taking some responsibility for how your actions impact other people.

I completely agree with this!

[sunnmama]

I agree with Heartmama that those words are like a slap, and 7 is old enough to have self control and take responsibility. My dd had a lot of trouble with self control at 7 (also had SPD and anxiety to deal with), but it took a Zero Tolerance atmosphere + support for her anxiety and sensory issues to change the really unacceptable behaviors. As long as I was willing to be treated poorly, she chose to take her discomforts out at me, unfortunately.

I'd still go swimming, though. I wouldn't tie in swimming to a behavior the day before, unless the behavior indicated that swimming was a *really bad idea* (acting unsafely, not trustworthy around water). New day, new chance Instead, at the time of the nasty comment, I'd remove the offered juice and that's it. No juice. If she's thirsty, 7 is old enough to get her own water. Tantrum would certainly ensue. No juice; get your own water. Mom's taking a break.

[stik]

She was good all day. She achieved your desired target behavior (polite behavior while out with friends). She had a problem at bedtime.

The language your dd used was not acceptable. However, I think it's extreme to deny a promised reward for good behavior based on one mistake at a difficult time of day.

I would have a chat with her when she gets up in the morning. I'd emphasize how well she did for most of the day. Tell her you're sad that the day ended the way it did, and that you wish you could re-do it. Expressing anger appropriately is a difficult skill because when you do it, you still don't get what you want. But, you can role-play the situation with her and think of a different ending. And then go swimming.

In my opinion, the reward for appropriate participation in a fun activity is that you get to keep on participating. You set up a really high stakes situation, and the stress involved in that isn't really helpful. In the future, it might be better to simply let your dd know what the plans are, and what your expectations are, and to leave the activity when your expectations aren't met.

[heartmama]

My dd had a lot of trouble with self control at 7 (also had SPD and anxiety to deal with), but it took a Zero Tolerance atmosphere + support for her anxiety and sensory issues to change the really unacceptable behaviors. As long as I was willing to be treated poorly, she chose to take her discomforts out at me, unfortunately.

I remember your posts in GD so clearly during that time, and you are really an inspiration. I know you did not have an easy time of it with your dd and you found a way to be very firm and create respect without using violence or being a punching bag yourself...

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I remember your posts in GD so clearly during that time, and you are really an inspiration. I know you did not have an easy time of it with your dd and you found a way to be very firm and create respect without using violence or being a punching bag yourself...

Aw, thanks hm!

I have some insecurities about how I was percieved as a parent (online and IRL) while we were struggling. I appreciate your kind words! And this forum was a godsend for me

[Laurel]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

I My dd had a lot of trouble with self control at 7 (also had SPD and anxiety to deal with), but it took a Zero Tolerance atmosphere + support for her anxiety and sensory issues to change the really unacceptable behaviors. As long as I was willing to be treated poorly, she chose to take her discomforts out at me, unfortunately..

So what do you do? I'm in the same exact boat with my almost-8-year-old. It's a big problem and has been for quite awhile. We've got a lot of the same issues, a strong, intense personality, sensory issues, etc. I'd like to have zero tolerance for the mouthiness and namecalling too (ITA that it's like a slap, it's not innocent, it's unacceptable to speak to a person you love that way). But I really don't know what to do in those situations. When I was a child, the consequence would have been a bit of Tabasco on the tongue. Obviously I'm NOT going to do that... but what works? Right now I try to ignore it, I've tried talking about it, having him rephrase (doesn't work when he's really mad), even having him stay in his room until he's calm enough to talk. What does your Zero Tolerance atmosphere look like?

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Laurel

What does your Zero Tolerance atmosphere look like?

I think the first important thing is: if you suspect your child needs some non-discipline support, get that in place. Getting our child in counseling for anxiety was the best thing we ever did for her, and I doubt any discipline approach would have "worked" without that piece. A miserable child acts miserably

After that (and part of that), we stopped discussion when she was out of control. We insisted that she MUST be in control if she wants our audience. I know that is a high bar, but she really needed that kind of black/white limit. It can't sometimes be ok to tantrum, hit, or say nasty things. Instant, calm time-out for her, every time. She learned to get up and walk away (and probably slam her door--that's ok!) when she was very angry, and then come out and talk.

There was also a major portion of therapy designed to help her learn and choose healthier ways to react when feeling angry.

These days (she's now 9.5), there are no time-outs. Things are less rigid. It wasn't a permanent parenting change, but rather a step toward teaching her boundaries that have stuck around since discontinuing the "zero tolerance" atmosphere.

[zinemama]

Try this book. It really helped me and dh.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenti.../dp/0374527083

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by heartmama

At 7...honestly, we wouldn't go anywhere until we got the bottom of that attitude. I would need a sincere apology, heartfelt, not forced, and a sense that my child was really sorry over it--not due to punishment but do to a realization of how words like that hurt. Words like that are as hurtful as a slap in the face and I was very strict about that kind of violence by 7 years old. 7 is old enough to start taking some responsibility for how your actions impact other people. I don't want to go swimming with a person who hurts me without making it up to me--and yes I think 7 is when a kid can start comprehending this kind of concept. FWIW my son totally got this by 7, and for us it was super effective. I just did not engage in the way he wanted (happy, sunny mom ready for fun), I acted as somber as I felt, and he soon started to miss the good vibe, and wanted it back, and would come to me sincerely sad over the hurt he caused, and ready to say so, and ready to talk about what he did, and what he could do different next time.

Originally Posted by sunnmama

I agree with Heartmama that those words are like a slap, and 7 is old enough to have self control and take responsibility. My dd had a lot of trouble with self control at 7 (also had SPD and anxiety to deal with), but it took a Zero Tolerance atmosphere + support for her anxiety and sensory issues to change the really unacceptable behaviors. As long as I was willing to be treated poorly, she chose to take her discomforts out at me, unfortunately.

My dd is 7.5 and this is the way I would go about it as well. I do realize that every child is different and has different requirements/needs - but my particular seven year old is wayyyy old enough/cognizant enough that this kind of behaviour would not be okay. I would do exactly what heartmama said.