Never mind - Page 9

[Quaniliaz]

Here is how we "move on" after the validating:

"You are really angry about this."
<scream, cry stomp>
"I'd be really angry, too..."
<scream, cry, stomp>
"validate, validate, validate..."
<scream, cry, stomp>
"It seems like you still want to be mad about this. That's ok. When you are ready to move on, I'll be in the living room, and we can <read a book, do a puzzle, play a game, sing a song, whatever>"

OP - I hear that you don't want to ignore, and I (personally) think there is a difference between ignoring (pretending they are not there) and not engaging in their drama/emotion. It is really upsetting to me when DD is super super freaking out. I can handle it for about 3.5 minutes. And then I start to take on those emotions. If I were to continue to validate, she'd just get more and more angry. (She also gets more upset if she see's her own upset face in a mirror...weird.) So, I disengage - move to a different space - if she follows me, I tell her - I'm starting to feel really upset about this too, and I don't want to be. When you are ready to move on, let me know and we'll do something fun." Perhaps she doesn't listen - maybe turn on the tunes really loud and dance with the baby. Sometimes I give dd a list of things that might help: run around the house, sing really loud, do a hook-up.

I think some kids need more tools for moving on than others - they get stuck, and no amount of validating makes them feel better. They just think - yeah! I *am* really really mad!!! <period - no moving on> This has worked for my dd - not magic bullet work, but it does help her move on without me going crazy dealiing with screaming for an hour or two.

[EdnaMarie]

Yes, mamazee, but the original discussion of false choices was about giving the child a choice that was manufactured out of something, in order to gain compliance, vs. the reality of the situation. I believe it was something like you can do x or y (implicit: but not argue with me).

And I think that the choice there is being used as a distraction, and it would be more honest to just say, "I'm leaving because I don't want to argue with you."

[EdnaMarie]

When you are ready to move on, I'll be in the living room, and we can <read a book, do a puzzle, play a game, sing a song, whatever>"

Do you have to lock the door to keep her from coming in there and continuing her tantrum?

Or how do you keep her from following you / glomming on to your leg at that point?

[PGTlatte]

Hi,

Yes, I have been with the thread since the beginning of it, and read all of it.

I do think the "nicer" approaches work well with some kids, and there are many situations when they work well for both of my kids, and those approaches are my choice in all but a few areas that to me are non-negotiable.

With the non-negotiable areas, I found the approach that works best for our sons is the most no-nonsense one, that uses the clearest type of communication and sets the clearest limits. Our sons need to know without a doubt what I am serious about, and this is what works for that. However I do reserve it for non-negotiable areas, and I do not have many of those. They have a very large degree of freedom in all other areas. But getting down to a very no-nonsense approach for the few truly non-negotiable areas ended up being the least toxic approach for all of us.

I do not think that disengaging from a pointless, game-playing, chain-yanking kind of argument is the same thing as ignoring a child's wants, needs, or thoughts. It's refusing to play a manipulative game. It's setting a healthy boundary.

Also they do not have locks on their doors. When they have a time out, it's extremely rare to be in their room in the first place. If they come out, I walk them back in. I would not lock them into a room.

Also I want to point out that in the approach I followed, there is no angry vent on the parent's part when using a time-out. The whole thing felt so much more positive to me than what I had been doing (blowing up) because I had to set my own negative emotions aside.

[Quaniliaz]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Do you have to lock the door to keep her from coming in there and continuing her tantrum?

Or how do you keep her from following you / glomming on to your leg at that point?

At this point (she is 7, now) she doesn't follow me around and cry. When she was 4, she did - and I did my best to mentally disengage (which basically did look like ignoring, I suppose - but I was always willing to respond to new info, I just didn't keep having the same conversation over and over, if I was feeling especially patient, extra eye contact and kind looks, reminders about when she is ready to move on, we can do something fun). If I was getting really upset, and needed a break, I would give *myself* a break "I'm starting to feel really upset, and I need some space - I'll be back in two minutes"- lock myself in bedroom.

I haven't ever locked her in her room - but I have locked myself in my room.

Of course, I also did my fair share of responding tantrums - all of the above was in an effort to avoid that.

[loraxc]

First, that with two kids, I can't do that for much longer and second, that there are mamas who don't have to do that with their kids.

They don't have that because they know the words to use, the way to be, to avoid this conflict. But I don't because I never stayed around anyone like my DD long enough to hone those skills! I don't because somewhere along the line I messed up and now I have to get her back in line

Aw, mama. This is hard to read, you blaming yourself like this.

I don't think your DD is really very typical, from what you describe. Which is fine. My DD is not typical either. Some kids are much more challenging than others. I consider my DD extremely challenging (so do other adults I know) and yet what you are describing is even somewhat outside of my experience with her. She sounds extremely spirited and intense. Again, this is okay, this is not pathological. But I think you are doing yourself harm by thinking that she is totally typical and you are just "doing it wrong." I blamed myself and my DH for a lot of DD's behavior for a long time, but boy, it sure has been instructive to have child #2, who is completely different and who actually responds to the standard parenting tricks, just like the nice example children in all the books.

Some kids are just harder. If I had had my DS first, I probably would have thought parenting was easy and that I was like super-ace at it, yay me. You are getting yourself farther into this hole by thinking you somehow wrecked her and it's your fault.

Anyway. I think laundrycrisis is spot on. I started out as very empathy/logic-based, but this just isn't effective here. DD has necessitated a much firmer approach. We don't really punish, but we are big on very clear limits (because otherwise, she will push and push and push) and yes, we have put a locked door between her and us (sometimes I locked myself, sometimes I locked her) at times till she calmed down. This was never for more than 10 minutes, but we did do it. (Very rarely is this necessary anymore--but at 3.5, it was. She is not sensitive, also, and didn't seem freaked by it. Just mad.) And yes, we practice selective ignoring. And yes, she was sometimes physically removed from areas or physically put in her carseat or physically restrained for other reasons at 2 and 3 and 4 (again, now very rarely necessary). I am not beating myself up about this. Different kids call for different measures.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Sorry if the term "false choice" is offensive.

I think when a child wants one thing, and then is offered a choice between two or three different other things, when the reality is that aside from the needs of the parent and the necessity of narrowing things down, many more choices would be available to him, then he is being given a false choice.

I understand why this method is used with young toddlers asserting their independence. They want to feel in control; the choice gives the illusion of control while letting the parent maintain control. It's the illusory nature of the control that leads me to call it a "false" choice. "Blue or red otter pop?" is just easier to deal with than "Orange juice? Milk? Sliced apples? Carrot sticks? Otter pops? Butter and bread? Yoghurt?" And of course a small child would be overwhelmed by those choices anyway.

With older toddlers and pre-schoolers, however, the illusion of control is lost because they know what they want. You might as well just say "no" and give them whatever is easiest. Because you've already eliminated like, 90% of the choices, why not the last one as well? They're not getting what they really want, anyway.

You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying there's no choice. I'm saying, it's not the choice that is relevant to the child's desire to control the situation.

I mean, imagine if you put in for a three-bedroom bungalow and someone came up to you and asked whether you'd like to live on the third floor in a one-bedroom apartment, or on the tenth floor in a two-bedroom apartment (no elevators). You'd be like, WTH? And they said, "Look, it's a great choice, you can choose EITHER the one or two bedroom! Which do you prefer?"

You're going to say, "Well, you may have missed it, but I ordered a three-bedroom."

"One bedroom or two bedroom. Your choice."
"I don't know what's wrong with you, but I ordered--"
"I said one bedroom or two bedroom."
"Are you kidding me?"
"If you don't want an apartment, you don't have to have one. This is your last chance. If you don't choose, I'll choose for you."
"I choose the bungalow!!!"
"Okay, I'll choose for you. The one-bedroom."

Would you not be driven to distraction?

Now, suppose a kid asks for a sandwich but that's not an option. Offering an apple OR an orange, in my opinion, is going to fool a small child but not an older one because it's going to be that same ridiculous "false choice". Oh, sure, there's not a choice because you're in control.

But in that case just set out the apples and be done with it. None of this passive-aggressive apples-or-oranges-aren't-you-lucky-you-get-to-choose nonsense. That's not fooling anybody past the age of three.

Well, I guess you missed the part where I mentioned my DS often offers alternatives to the choice presented and that I work with them if possible. I don't consider the choices I present to him "false choices" and neither do I consider it passive-aggressive. My son is very intelligent and I don't set out to fool him. I provide him the choices that work for me and he can decide from that point; I tell him what I am willing to do and leave the actual choice up to him.

Of course, I am able to sit down with my son and explain to him that we don't eat popsicles for breakfast; we eat toast or fruit. I offer two healthy breakfasts and he chooses between those or suggests a third but an unhealthy breakfast is not an acceptable negotiation. He is capable of understanding my reasoning and I am willing to listen to his words, to a point.

There's nothing saying you have to give two choices; you can give as many as you are willing. When we discuss his breakfast, we often go through a number of choices before cycling back around to what he wants. However, he doesn't get ice cream for breakfast just because he wants it and/or is prepared to have a fit and I'm certainly not going to run out to the store to get his fav breakfast if we are out of it. There comes a point when you just have to say, "This is what we have; eat or don't."

Note: this is a CHOICE that the CHILD makes. You cannot force someone to eat; you can only offer food.

Why wouldn't a sandwich be an option? If you don't have one or aren't a place where you can make one, those are valid reasons, sure. In that case, you can explain that and offer a suitable alternative. If your child refuses the alternative, what are YOU going to do? Me, I would say something like, "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and LET IT GO.

If a sandwich is an option, then why wouldn't it be part of the choices offered? Why would you offer choices that don't take into consideration your child's desires? My general philosophy is to fix what's wrong and work with my son's choices as much as possible, unless the choice is inappropriate or causing a problem.

For example, he had a hard time sleeping tonight because he didn't take a nap at school today. Instead of continually redirecting him to his room, which could easily have lasted two or more hours, I asked HIM what the problem was. He needed a bit of a snuggle and was out in ten minutes. Problem solved; everybody's happy and all it cost me was a bit of time to listen to my son.

I wish you and your child the best of luck, and hope that you find some way to resolve the issues you are facing.

[EdnaMarie]

Minxie, there were several people that suggested giving the child a "choice" between two when she had already expressed a preference for something else entirely.

I was replying to that PARTICULAR type of choice, not ANY choice given by a parent.

The sandwich thing was just a random example. I mean sometimes you don't have time. Whatever. The point is, offer real options or don't offer. Not don't offer options.

Instead of continually redirecting him to his room, which could easily have lasted two or more hours, I asked HIM what the problem was. He needed a bit of a snuggle and was out in ten minutes. Problem solved; everybody's happy and all it cost me was a bit of time to listen to my son.

Can you tell me the words you used?

Because I've been asking before naptime and bedtime what we need to do to make it happy... why she's not sleeping... honestly, I swear to God, she just says nothing's wrong, she's not tired. Perhaps I was using the wrong words?

I tried to do the How to Talk thing... yeah.

Me, I would say something like, "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and LET IT GO.

Kick the child off your leg? Lock the door behind you?

It's so easy to just stop talking. It's another thing entirely to get the child off your body without force or ignoring or isolating yourself or the child in a locked room.

Perhaps I am only now seeing the difference between my child and children with whom GD works?

Mine is willing to use physical force to continue that argument, when she's in the mood. Now that is NOT all the time. I'd say that using games and challenges and physical force for basic hygiene we have really gotten it down to a couple of times a day max.

But "letting it go" is not just me walking away or stopping. She will get more and more aggressive until I respond, until it's something I cannot ignore (hit, kick hang on me refuse to get off).

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?

I mean if I could just stop talking and have that be the end don't you think I would have done that?

[PGTlatte]

EdnaMarie, going back to your first post in starting the thread:

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Just not bothering?

Like if she offers the least bit of resistance, I'm not going to fight. I just leave the entire project. At bedtime- one no means I don't put her to bed, period.

.......

Anyone try it? Like, no resistance whatsoever, no matter what, even in health issues? I am not sure what to do around cars, though. I'm ready to just let her learn the hard way. Like, "Okay, go ahead, we're leaving." "SUre, sit on my lap even though I can't eat." "Fine, don't brush your teeth."

I am not sure what sort of reply here would make you feel like anyone helped you. I've answered from my own experience - I took setting limits to a new level in a few non-negotiable areas, and pretty much went the way of freedom on everything else. At our house this has struck a balance that is overall much more positive and with less conflict and frustration for all. Others have answered from their own experiences.

It seems that for every reply that has been made here regarding setting limits, you have argued a reason why it either isn't gentle enough to meet your standards, or if it's gentle enough, that it won't have the desired effect on your child. You seem really stuck, and that you are having difficulty finding any help in all these pages of replies.

If what you want is to explore the completely consensual/non-coercive approach, there are folks around the GD forum who can share their experiences with that. You may need to start a thread with one of those terms in the subject line to get responses. There are books and websites people might recommend, and you may find some personal support for doing this.

If what you want is book recommendations for GD books with suggestions for ways to handle various situations, if you share what you have read already, perhaps people can recommend other titles that might be helpful for you.

If what you want are suggestions for ways to handle specific situations that are difficult, you might make a short list of what those specific trouble spots are, and let people suggest how they handle each specific thing, without getting into a broad discussion of overall discipline philosophy.

The people here can be very helpful if you are open to it. This thread has the feeling that you are saying "see how impossible my situation is ?", and then no matter what anyone offers you, you will reply "no, that won't work either, see, it really is impossible !!"

The only way I know to suggest for you to get out of this mentally stuck spot is to either get more specific about exactly what situation you want to solve (ie, bedtime, carseat, mealtime) and focus on each area one at a time, being open about the ideas that are offered for it, or perhaps choose one book or one philosophical approach and commit to sticking with it to the letter for at least a month, as an experiment, and see where it leads, until you find one or two that are the most helpful for you. It seems that you asking for help in a big-picture kind of way is a dead end that you can't see your way out of, and there aren't any suggestions that you are going to feel are worth trying. I really do wish you the best in finding some solutions to enjoying your time with your DD.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by laundrycrisis

EdnaMarie, going back to your first post in starting the thread:



I am not sure what sort of reply here would make you feel like anyone helped you. I've answered from my own experience - I took setting limits to a new level in a few non-negotiable areas, and pretty much went the way of freedom on everything else. At our house this has struck a balance that is overall much more positive and with less conflict and frustration for all. Others have answered from their own experiences.

It seems that for every reply that has been made here regarding setting limits, you have argued a reason why it either isn't gentle enough to meet your standards, or if it's gentle enough, that it won't have the desired effect on your child. You seem really stuck, and that you are having difficulty finding any help in all these pages of replies.

If what you want is to explore the completely consensual/non-coercive approach, there are folks around the GD forum who can share their experiences with that. You may need to start a thread with one of those terms in the subject line to get responses. There are books and websites people might recommend, and you may find some personal support for doing this.

If what you want is book recommendations for GD books with suggestions for ways to handle various situations, if you share what you have read already, perhaps people can recommend other titles that might be helpful for you.

If what you want are suggestions for ways to handle specific situations that are difficult, you might make a short list of what those specific trouble spots are, and let people suggest how they handle each specific thing, without getting into a broad discussion of overall discipline philosophy.

The people here can be very helpful if you are open to it. This thread has the feeling that you are saying "see how impossible my situation is ?", and then no matter what anyone offers you, you will reply "no, that won't work either, see, it really is impossible !!"

The only way I know to suggest for you to get out of this mentally stuck spot is to either get more specific about exactly what situation you want to solve (ie, bedtime, carseat, mealtime) and focus on each area one at a time, being open about the ideas that are offered for it, or perhaps choose one book or one philosophical approach and commit to sticking with it to the letter for at least a month, as an experiment, and see where it leads, until you find one or two that are the most helpful for you. It seems that you asking for help in a big-picture kind of way is a dead end that you can't see your way out of, and there aren't any suggestions that you are going to feel are worth trying. I really do wish you the best in finding some solutions to enjoying your time with your DD.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think it's entirely true. I have said that there are two things that were working (going back to do-it-or-I-do-it-in-3 and creating games for every situation), and that I'm using them, and it's great.

And I have several times said, Okay, I've got it down to these few things: bedtime (naptime is easier because we have a natural, non-negotiable park reward), hitting/kicking/spitting, and verbal abuse.

And I'm sorry if the other stuff doesn't work, but honestly, what am I supposed to do about that? I feel like banging my head against the wall. I do feel like I'm getting the same form of answer over and over, which is very, very vague: "I just don't engage."

Again, we have now gotten to the point where I see that some children do not glom onto their parents' legs to continue an argument. That is interesting. You can actually "just" walk away. That is cool. I hope someday we'll get to that point, though knowing her dad (he tends to follow me asking for a hug and to "forget about it" after having argued with me for a half an hour about something absolutely ridiculous EVEN IF I SAID YES) it will never happen.

My child DOES appear typical compared to other kids at pre-school, the park, supermarket, etc. At least, until we get to an impasse, but then it's impossible to compare because I have no way of knowing whether my child would suck it up if I threatened to whup her bottom with a wooden spoon, which I hear regularly. I know she is not responsive to things that are not violent, but I don't know how she'd respond if there were violent punishment.

So yes, I do feel like I'm missing something. How can someone who appears so normal in so many ways be so maladapted to gentle correction?

She is a very loving and gentle person most of the time and tells gentle, generous, happy stories. Since the beginning of this thread things have gotten a lot better, probably because she loves being challenged all day long, so she is happier.

[Snapdragon]

it sounds like she could do well being a lawyer or something when she grows up! LOL.
But seriously- hopefully all that creative energy she has, as difficult as it is right now, can eventually be tapped into in a good way when she is older.

Earlier you mentioned sending her to school for full days rather than half? I think I read that? Is that something you are still considering?

[loraxc]

My DD is a very loving and good-hearted child. She wept and wept when her preschool teachers read The Giving Tree. She literally will not hurt a fly ("Please take it out of the house and let it free"). She is never intentionally mean to anyone (like, she would never say anything nasty to another child). But she is very, very argumentative, intense and stubborn, too. They can coexist.

[squimp]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

If the presumption is that children act out/badly/inappropriately b/c of unmet needs or underlying issues, and meeting those needs can do wonders to curb behavior, why wouldn't you just interact with the child?

Yes, it's exhausting. I'm an introvert and my oldest (and more spirited chid) is a HUGE extrovert. But he needs interaction. He needs the engagement. And it sounds like if the child is following you around the house doing everything possible to engage you, and using time-outs to play games, that she might just need more interaction. I don't understand the "just ignore" her advice. Until what? She just gives up? That need isn't going anywhere until it's met.

As exhausting as it is for me (or you) to have an extrovert tugging at me all day, it's equally exhausting for him to NOT do it.

But the kid's supposed to have better coping skills than the adult? Or figure out another way to have his or her needs met? Or just suck it up?

Why not ask the kid what to do in the case of an impasse? "Hmm...you don't like x or y, and it seems like that's all we have, what do you think we should do?" "How can we handle this?" State the problem and seek out solutions....together.

Seriously, my kids would *flip out* if I did some of what's being talked about in this thread. It doesn't surprise me to hear the amount of anger and acting out. That's what strong-willed people do. They do. not. give. up. And the more you fight with them and model not giving up....they do. not. give. up. MORE.

I don't think GD is the problem, I think the adversarial/behaviorism slant is. Stopping the behavior isn't going to change the fact that your kid is angry enough to talk about putting you in the trash or following you around the house hitting you. Or not having her need for engagement met.

And it's probably going to take a good long time to turn things around. I think the grandmothers' advice resonated with me the most in this thread. Be kinder. Hug her more. Gain her trust back. MODEL flexibility, patience, and positive interactions.

Like I said, I've got an 8.5 yr. old and a 5 yr. old and most of the time they are delightful, considerate, and respectful. The nicer I am to them, the nicer they are to me. They are both strong-willed and I know for fact that if I was doing the amount of punishing and ignoring that it *sounds* like is being described here, I would be in complete and total hell. Shoot, I HAVE tried it. And it sucked. In the same kind of ways you are describing. I would stop. I DID stop. It worked out great. You could stop, too.

Monkey's mama, I just wanted to say thank you for such a great post. This advice has helped so much in dealing with my adversarial 6-year-old.

[monkey's mom]

Thanks, squimp! Glad it helped.

I was just reading another article with some ideas for dialogue tactics that really resonated with me: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/inbal_kashtan2.html Maybe it'll be useful for someone else.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Minxie, there were several people that suggested giving the child a "choice" between two when she had already expressed a preference for something else entirely.

I was replying to that PARTICULAR type of choice, not ANY choice given by a parent.

The sandwich thing was just a random example. I mean sometimes you don't have time. Whatever. The point is, offer real options or don't offer. Not don't offer options.



Can you tell me the words you used?

Because I've been asking before naptime and bedtime what we need to do to make it happy... why she's not sleeping... honestly, I swear to God, she just says nothing's wrong, she's not tired. Perhaps I was using the wrong words?

I tried to do the How to Talk thing... yeah.



Kick the child off your leg? Lock the door behind you?

It's so easy to just stop talking. It's another thing entirely to get the child off your body without force or ignoring or isolating yourself or the child in a locked room.

Perhaps I am only now seeing the difference between my child and children with whom GD works?

Mine is willing to use physical force to continue that argument, when she's in the mood. Now that is NOT all the time. I'd say that using games and challenges and physical force for basic hygiene we have really gotten it down to a couple of times a day max.

But "letting it go" is not just me walking away or stopping. She will get more and more aggressive until I respond, until it's something I cannot ignore (hit, kick hang on me refuse to get off).

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?

I mean if I could just stop talking and have that be the end don't you think I would have done that?

Sure. I said, "What's the problem, my son?"

He also has told me that he's not tired; when he does that, I tell him that "It's Mama Time now. You don't have to sleep but you do need to be in your bed. Would you like a book to read?" Saying it's Mama Time takes the focus off of his bedtime and puts it onto my time; there's nothing to argue at that point. Giving him a book respects his desire not to sleep right then while respecting my need for some space.

I also have wrapped him in a burrito wrap because sometimes, even at age four, he needs that swaddling to calm himself enough to sleep. I know he does because he asks for a burrito wrap. At the very least, it's a fun game because I roll him into the blanket (a bit larger than a child's blanket but not adult-sized) arms and all while he giggles (and it buys me a few minutes while he works himself out of it!)

We do that a lot; respect each other's space, I mean. Everyone has a need for personal space and time so we learned together to say, "Please respect my personal space" or "I'd like some privacy, please." This is especially helpful during THAT time when I need some privacy in the bathroom; as a single mom of a boy, it was necessary to establish boundaries early. (TMI: tampons are called "privacies" in our house because that was the first interaction we had regarding such.)

Hitting...hmmm...when my son was two, he tentatively hit me. I gently but firmly held his hands so that he could NOT hit me. I then redirected him to a drum with the words, "We don't hit people; we hit drums." We each took a drum and banged on it until we dissolved into giggles.

This is probably not gentle enough for you but...I don't have a problem snuggling my son when he is being contrary. I tell him something like, "It sounds like you need some love", wrap him in a blanket and pull him onto my lap. Very often, that is exactly what he needs and he snuggles down comfortably for five or ten minutes. When either of us is finished (sometimes me first; sometimes him first), I tip him off and he unravels himself.

I don't lock my son in his room; I don't find it gentle at all. I talk to him, play games with him, snuggle him and occasionally get stern or show impatience with him. I tell him if I am angry or frustrated with him; I tell him I need some space. I also respect his feelings when he is angry or frustrated with me, or when he needs some space. It is a two-way street but I am still the adult and still responsible for his welfare so sometimes I will make decisions with which he will not agree. That's just the way it goes and he has to accept it.

I also don't ignore him; I find that rude. I reiterate my position; he can accept it or not but that is what I am willing to do. "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and I continue on with what I am doing.

I plan fun stuff for us to do and hope that we won't make it. I know that sounds weird but I use it as a tool. "If we finish our errands quickly, we'll have enough time to stop at the playground. In order to finish quickly, what do we need to do?" We then list it together.

If we don't finish quickly or if dealing with him has made me too tired, I tell him that. "I was so looking forward to the playground today; unfortunately, I am too tired to go because I had to chase after you in the store. Maybe we can go tomorrow but right now, I need a nap!" This is all about MY needs and how tired I am, not about me controlling him. We discuss good choices and bad choices, and the consequences of each.

My son is very comfortable at our local grocery, so much so that he will run to the deli by himself while I am in another part of the store. I am not a fan of this so when it happens, I hold him by the hand (he's too big for a cart) and remind him that "I will control your body until you are ready to control it yourself."

To that end, were he to hit me now, I would probably do the same. I would wrap him in a burrito wrap, remind him that we don't hit and let him know that I will be glad to control his body for him until he is ready to control it himself. THIS WOULD WORK FOR MY CHILD. You know YOUR child best so have to determine what idea might work best for her.

ETA: I asked my son and he offers the following:

"Well, you could give me a hug to help me calm down, and a snack. You could tell me a story. A lullaby would be helpful and lots of kisses!"

[heartmama]

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?

We had an issue when ds was almost three, that had gone on for over a year, where he hit and hurt me frequently. The only thing that worked was enforced separation. To say that it upset him would be an understatement. The force of his emotional hysteria was 100% what he was capable of expressing.

Because I had dh at home, I was able to separate from ds while another adult sat with him. That did not mitigate ds' hysteria over realizing I had left him and there was no way to get me back for a few minutes. However if I had been alone, I would have locked *myself* in room for a few minutes instead.

The one thing I get about your thread is the issue of intensity. Sometimes a child can become so relentless they are hard to like anymore.

Part of getting us out of that rut was that I had to re-evaluate what was going on with ds developmentally, and what was acceptable contact with me as he changed and grew.

At 18 months, I could handle getting hit and remaining in the space of my toddler, redirecting. At 24 months I could do that. But by 34 months it stopped feeling right. Children change. They evolve. They grow. Perhaps at 18 months his hitting was just impulsiveness. At 3 it was a habit within his control.

I separated from him exactly once and the hitting stopped by 90%. One more enforced separation and he stopped it completely.

I think it worked so well because we had come to a point where his behavior was within his control. Further, I shifted to really focusing on meeting my needs rather than focusing on his behavior. Some people may not believe a 3 year old knows the difference but I think my ds really did.

I did not say "The punishment for hitting me is a time out". It was more like, if he hit me, I left to take care of myself for a few minutes. That is a good way to explain the energy, the way it went down. That was how I thought about it mentally. Thinking about it that way seemed to deflate the potential power struggle dynamic. I wasn't trying to actually make him stop hitting. I was just going to meet me needs if I got hit, and my need if you hit me is to be away from you for a few minutes. Yes, he was infuriated over it, but, well, that is what happens if he kick me in the face. I go to my room and take care of me. I could do that without any guilt.

For us separation, even enforced separation, was very much the gentlest solution on balance. I think it could have been done in a mean way, or in a way that escalated a power struggle--but there was a way to separate and actually diffuse the situation despite ds' resistance in the moment. He did not agree, but I think he did understand, and this new response from me elicited a new response from him--one that made life 100% better for both of us.

[mamamille]

why do you think she clings to you so? Why she is so relentless sometimes with her energy and body? What do you think she is saying? What does she want out of the turmoil?

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

We do that. My issue is that some things cannot be "disengaged". As in:

"You don't like being relatively quiet while your sister is napping? Um... um... okay. Uh..."

"You don't want to put on your harness while we drive to pick up your dad from a month at training at a minute's notice? Uh. You can stay, well, no you can't, uh, you can, uh..."

"You don't want to brush your teeth even though your dad's family has bad teeth and that lady gave you a lollypop at the park? Um. Okay. Your teeth will rot in your head, but whatever."

"You don't want to put the glass jar that you swiped from the shelf that we passed too close to down? Fine, you can pay for... er, I guess that would be me."

Y.

I have to say this. First of all, that's way too many words no matter how articulate your 3 yo is.

Second, her teeth are not going to rot from ONE lollipop and why bring her dad's family's teeth into it. Teeth need to be brushed so you don't get cavities. End of story

That needs to go back on the shelf.

And what 3 yo wants to be quiet when the baby naps?

Also what's so bad about "wasting time" watching a video if it gets you some peace?

[simonee]

Have you asked her why she behaves the way she does? In all your posts, I only see you express yourself from your own perspective. You evidently don't quite understand where your DD "comes from", but I don't really get the impression you're actively trying to find out?
My DD and I also have little 'natural understanding' because we're so very differently tempered, and I remember the point where I suddenly realized that I was just always telling her what I thought, without really listening to her -- which seems to be what your DD says, too. It seems like you're talking to a wall, but so is she - plus she's likely listening to a never-ending buzz that's not quite reaching her.

[loraxc]

why do you think she clings to you so? Why she is so relentless sometimes with her energy and body? What do you think she is saying? What does she want out of the turmoil?

I do think it's worth thinking about this.

Also, I know that when I get into a bad stretch with my DD, I tend to start holding her at arm's length, emotionally and physically. Sometimes I have to "fake it till I make it," offering lots more affection, especially physical, than I might feel like offering. I do feel this helps. At the very least, I am ensuring positive interaction along with the negative interactions.