``Your toddler is old enough to....``

[Astraia]

I`m finding I`m getting a lot of flack from other parents about what my toddler is old enough to do or understand.. (okay, sorry, no idea what is up with my keyboard, but punctuation is all wacko!)

When my toddler throws a tantrum because another kid takes a toy away from her, they say, `she`s old enough to understand she needs to share, just pop her butt``

Or if I say, she won`t let me do x, y, z and prefers to do things her way, then I get, just stick her in time out, she`s old enough to understand.

When I say she`s picky about what she eats these days, they say she`s old enough to eat what I put in front of her and I shouldn`t be making different meals for her or giving her options.

I don`t agree with spanking. I don`t agree with time outs. But this leaves me with no idea what I SHOULD be doing, and no appropriate response to people who encourage this form of discipline (especially if my kid is being out of control around their kids). If I say I don`t spank and they ask well what DO you do.... I have no answers.

I also don`t know how you decided that your kid is old enough for whatever consequence. I REALLY do not think, regardless of my views of time outs, that a 20 month old is old enough to grasp the idea of time outs, or the if you don`t eat your dinner you go to bed hungry concept. How do you decide which consequences go with which actions, and is there some method to judge mental or emotional readiness for certain concepts- like, we`re in church, please be quiet. When do you stop taking your kids out of social situations to let them run around and be toddlers and expect them to be able to sit quietly, share, eat while sitting down instead of while wandering around the room, put clothes on without a fight, etc.

[tangledblue]

I'm sure other people have better answers and/or books to recommend, but I think, at least in regards to the "how do you know when" question, that you have to a) trust your instincts and b) give your toddler credit that she can learn manners and appropriate social behavior in the same way that she has learned to talk, eat, climb, etc.

I would certainly look at these situations as teaching moments rather than causes for punishment (as you mentioned that the other parents you know seem to). In other words, yes, she can learn to share and not throw a tantrum, but you might need to explain it to her or just say something like, "It's his turn now, why don't you use the [alternate toy]."

(Of course, if it's a toy that is particularly special to her, like a lovey, I would support her in NOT sharing it, because sometimes not sharing is ok too and the other kid can deal. But that's just me.) I think it is easier to teach good behavior if you start before you think you should, but just in a teaching way and not in a punitive way.

[LDSmomma]

Hugs, mama! Two or three months ago, I was exactly where you are!! DS behaved like a maniac, and I couldn't stop it, and everyone around me was critical, and offering unwanted, unacceptable suggestions. I found a few friends who were like-minded to discuss this with, like at API & LLL meetings, and looked over the discipline forum on MDC, and found some reccommendations for good books on the topic, and now, I'm in a much better parenting place! DS also behaves much better, and I make myself feel better by telling the people who offered the bad advice what I did to change it!!

Originally Posted by Astraia

When my toddler throws a tantrum because another kid takes a toy away from her, they say, `she`s old enough to understand she needs to share, just pop her butt``

DS is 18 months, and I have a close friend with a DS that's 22 months. I do NOT think your DD is old enough to know how to share. Dr Sears's Discipline Book mentions that somewhere, but I can't quote it. It may be on his website, though. When my DS gets upset over sharing & toys, I follow some of the toddler-ese from Happiest Toddler on the Block, where I speak in very short sentences, and reflect some of his feelings back at him until he pays attention to me: "You are mad. You want the [insert toy here]. John has the toy. You want the toy. Can you stomp your feet when you're mad? Punch this pillow!" or give him whatever options he can do, since my DS will usually hit the kid, or bang his head on the floor, which I'm trying to get him to stop doing. Anyway, once he's paying attention to me, I explain that it's John's turn, and try and arrange for my DS to get that toy in x minutes, or redirect to a new toy. And my DS gets out of control sometimes, and when he does, I leave early. It's really stressful, because, just like you said, the other parents want me to be hitting him, or putting him in time out or something, and it's such a stress to me when he's difficult, plus their judgement, that it's just not worth sticking around. Oh, and I started noticing that he's better behaved when he's well rested and has eaten well (hence the breakfast I'll talk about later. Play dates & play group are always right after breakfast, so I plan for him to be full and well nourished before any conflict may arise.).

Originally Posted by Astraia

Or if I say, she won`t let me do x, y, z and prefers to do things her way, then I get, just stick her in time out, she`s old enough to understand.

I have stopped telling people stuff like this. DS is the exact same, and I have to plan to do things I don't want him to interfere with when he's asleep, or when Daddy's home. But, I only tell people this who will get it, and will be supportive. I have gotten my feelings hurt a lot by people who just don't get it! Even at an attachment parenting meeting last month! but I found one of my friends who understood, and chatted with her about it for a while, and felt better.

Originally Posted by Astraia

When I say she`s picky about what she eats these days, they say she`s old enough to eat what I put in front of her and I shouldn`t be making different meals for her or giving her options.

Again, don't tell people if you don't like their "help." Is your DD nursing? I stopped catering to DS's choices in foods, because he was gravitating to junk food. Well, not chips and cookies, but too much carbs and fruit, and not enough protien or fat, which I want him to eat more of. So, I plan a breakfast I know he'll eat, but the rest of the day, I offer him healthy options, and he just doesn't eat. But, he nurses, so the ped and the LLL leader insist it's OK. And he's certainly growing fine.

Originally Posted by Astraia

I also don`t know how you decided that your kid is old enough for whatever consequence. I REALLY do not think, regardless of my views of time outs, that a 20 month old is old enough to grasp the idea of time outs, or the if you don`t eat your dinner you go to bed hungry concept. How do you decide which consequences go with which actions, and is there some method to judge mental or emotional readiness for certain concepts- like, we`re in church, please be quiet. When do you stop taking your kids out of social situations to let them run around and be toddlers and expect them to be able to sit quietly, share, eat while sitting down instead of while wandering around the room, put clothes on without a fight, etc.

I've read a few discipline books to help me figure this out: The Discipline Book, No-Cry Discipline Solution and Happiest Toddler on the Block. Warning: The Happiest Toddler has some stuff I don't agree with, but the communication stuff is good.

For church, he needs to sit for 1 hour to be quiet. Of course he can't do that. So, we bring quiet toys, like crayons, blocks, church books, cars, etc. and snacks. Last Sunday, he managed to last about a half hour with all of that, then DH took him out of the chapel, but did not let him run around and be a toddler. He held him, and walked around. We're hoping he'll get it that being in the chapel is more fun, since there are toys, and that going to the hall is not fun, because all he gets to do is be held by Daddy while Daddy walks around. BUT, this is to teach him that church is a normal part of our routine. If we were at a wedding, for instance, I would bring quiet things, but after those got old, I would let him run around, so he gets out the energy, since I know we'll be there for a while, and the lesson of being well behaved for a wedding isn't as important to me as at church, since the former rarely happens.

2 year olds are capable of eating while sitting, if you teach them. I used to work at a preschool, and we did it, with teachers sitting at the table with them, reminding frequently to stay in the chair. But, that's not a priority at our house. We put him in the high chair for most meals, but when it's just the two of us for lunch, I eat on the couch, and he tries a bite (and usually spits it out!), and I offer other healthy snacks while he's playing.

DS fights getting in the car seat, and getting dressed, and changing a diaper. Recently, I figured out that if I warn him five minutes before we're going to do a dreaded task, he's OK when it happens. I was shocked, because I didn't think he could understand me, but it actually works!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Astraia

If I say I don`t spank and they ask well what DO you do.... I have no answers.

Dp were talking about this today- we don't punish, and we get the "well then, what DO you do?" question sometimes. It's almost impossible to answer, because there isn't something that we do instead of punishing. It's a totally different way of interacting with kids, kwim?

That said, if you are looking for discipline ideas, I recommend Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. One of my faves, and the one that really made my life easier. There is a list of different things you can do, discipline-wise, with young kids. It helped me formulate an answer to "what do you do then?"

Sorry- would say more but nak...

[WindyCityMom]

When situations like that arise I think to myself (or share, depending on who I'm talking to)

"Children are not tiny adults."

Basically, we cannot expect them to behave as such- we can work with them to help them learn, but to force them or guilt them (or whatever the strangers are recommending) because they are old enough to "understand" is unfair to them.

Then again this is all my two cents But that's how I feel about things. I tend to ignore comments like that or thank whomever for their input because I usually have rather snarky impulsive comments that fly out of my mouth if I don't stop myself.

[MusicianDad]

Nothing to add, but it looks like your computer is set to either French or Canadian Multilingual, if you're on Windows there should be a keyboard icon on the right side of the task bar that can fix it.

[Astraia]

Originally Posted by LDSmomma

When my DS gets upset over sharing & toys, I follow some of the toddler-ese from Happiest Toddler on the Block, where I speak in very short sentences, and reflect some of his feelings back at him until he pays attention to me: "You are mad. You want the [insert toy here]. John has the toy. You want the toy. Can you stomp your feet when you're mad? Punch this pillow!" or give him whatever options he can do. Anyway, once he's paying attention to me, I explain that it's John's turn, and try and arrange for my DS to get that toy in x minutes, or redirect to a new toy. And my DS gets out of control sometimes, and when he does, I leave early. It's really stressful, because, just like you said, the other parents want me to be hitting him, or putting him in time out or something, and it's such a stress to me when he's difficult, plus their judgement, that it's just not worth sticking around.


I've read a few discipline books to help me figure this out: The Discipline Book, No-Cry Discipline Solution and Happiest Toddler on the Block. Warning: The Happiest Toddler has some stuff I don't agree with, but the communication stuff is good.

Thank you for your response!

I keep thinking (even as I`m talking) that I shouldn`t be saying any of this, I`m going to regret it in a minute but sometimes I get caught up in feelings of comradery and sharing and can`t seem to help it.

I think it affects me so much because I don`t HAVE a method. I think if I could sya definitely, no- we do such-and-such, it would be better. As it is, I kind of go with the flow and follow her lead (unless she`s taking toys from another kid or something, then I`ll intervene, explain sharing, redirect, etc).

I like the Toddler-ese that you explained. She really seems to like it when I explain the situation to her with basic day to day stuff so it would probably help in these instances too.

Us leaving is often not an option- family dinners where we`re all expected to be there, having people over for dinner, etc. And a lot of the time the other parent isn`upset, just being conversational. `You know, at some point you`re going to have to do something to control her``....

I can check out those books. I`ve read a couple others that friends and family have recommended, but they were garbage.

[Astraia]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

Dp were talking about this today- we don't punish, and we get the "well then, what DO you do?" question sometimes. It's almost impossible to answer, because there isn't something that we do instead of punishing. It's a totally different way of interacting with kids, kwim?

That said, if you are looking for discipline ideas, I recommend Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. One of my faves, and the one that really made my life easier. There is a list of different things you can do, discipline-wise, with young kids. It helped me formulate an answer to "what do you do then?"

Sorry- would say more but nak...

When you have a few minutes, could you talk a bit more about your method. I like the sound of it (although it sounds like it would be harder to pull off well than traditional parenting methods!) Maybe give an example. I`d put question marks in, but they look like this É

[Astraia]

Originally Posted by WindyCityMom

I tend to ignore comments like that or thank whomever for their input because I usually have rather snarky impulsive comments that fly out of my mouth if I don't stop myself.

I feel guilty and like I`m doing something wrong and I don`t have a snappy come back.

Maybe I`ll just borrow yours

[Astraia]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Nothing to add, but it looks like your computer is set to either French or Canadian Multilingual, if you're on Windows there should be a keyboard icon on the right side of the task bar that can fix it.

I looked, I can`t find it.

It was fine, then I went to do shift and a letter to capitalize it, and somehow did control and then some other mystery key and it was like this.

DH just installed windows 7, everything is all weird now.

[LadyCatherine185]

I got the "spanking" and "timeout" comments when DS was around a year old from family. At that time, he was definitely MUCH too young to understand what to do, and what not to do, etc. I got into some pretty heated arguments with my Dad over this, who was a very strict/militant like parent (you know, kids are to be seen and not heard) and used lots of spanking, punishing, etc.

I am not against timeouts, per say, but even now at almost two we don't really use them. What I have found that works for us (and DS is very verbal at this point) is more "natural consequences." And I tell him what the 'consequence' is before I enforce it. As in, if he throws something dangerous, I tell him "Liam, do not throw that ball at the TV. If you throw it at the TV again I will take it away. You can throw it at the couch/floor, etc" I tell him what he can't do, what the consequence will be, and what he can do. This has worked really well for us, he actually LISTENS to me now about 80% of the time! Before we reached this stage, there was a lot of just telling him what TO do.. like "throw the ball at the couch instead!" It sort of evolved to what we do now. I never had to spank/punish/put him in timeout and now at 23 months I am able to reason with him and he listens well. Of course, there is a lot of babyproofing and I have age appropriate expectations and I don't put him into situations where I know he won't be able to resist the temptation.

[faithsstuff]

i'm in the same boat with you. i remind myself that i've been on this planet almost 30 years and am still learning. he's been here for 18 months. i've been entrusted with the guidance of a unique and miraculous soul.

[lolar2]

If it's a family dinner or something, you can probably be comfortable saying "I wasn't asking for advice."

Otherwise, either ignore, or sometimes it sounds like it's a situation where the adult wants something and isn't wording it well. If you can figure out a way for the adult to get what he or she wants, he or she is less likely to care about the minutiae of toddler discipline (for ex. if what they want is to not listen to the tantrum, you could take her out of the room until she calms down or something).

And yeah, don't over-share about a discipline issue unless you want advice. Most of us have to learn that the hard way.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Astraia

I looked, I can`t find it.

It was fine, then I went to do shift and a letter to capitalize it, and somehow did control and then some other mystery key and it was like this.

DH just installed windows 7, everything is all weird now.

Try either ctrl+shift or left Alt+shift.

[2xy]

If you're asking for their opinion, then you must graciously receive it.

If you did not ask for their opinion, smile sweetly, look them in the eyes, and say "You're old enough to understand that unsolicited advice is generally unwelcome."

[LDSmomma]

Google "Bean dip Method" I think that's what it is. A great article about how one mom deals with unwanted parenting conversation with family & friends.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Astraia

When you have a few minutes, could you talk a bit more about your method. I like the sound of it (although it sounds like it would be harder to pull off well than traditional parenting methods!) Maybe give an example. I`d put question marks in, but they look like this É

Well, I don't think it's harder than traditional methods. Just different. If you are used to traditional methods, it might take some getting used to. I grew up in a more traditionally disciplining home, and there was a learning curve for me. Dp grew up in a home where there was VERY little punishment, and it just comes naturally to him.

Here's the basic "method" I used when ds1 was little. Ds2 is only 1yo, so we haven't really found our groove yet, but I plan to do something similar with ds2, adjusting for his personality, etc.
Say he's doing something I don't want him to do, like banging on the window with a block. Here's what I'd do:
1. Give information- "Don't bang on the window. It could break." (I like to give specific instructions, then give a reason.)
2. Honor the impulse (this is from BTPYWTB) - figure out the impulse behind the action. There's always a legitimate reason for what they are doing, it's just that sometimes they aren't expressing it in a socially acceptable way. So you help them find an acceptable way to do what they want. In the window situation, the impulse could be that they want to play with the window, they want to play with the blocks, they are bored and want to play with anything, they like to hear the sound it makes, etc etc.
3. Redirect in a way that honors the impulse - "You can wipe the window with this cloth" "you can build with blocks on the floor" "What does it sound like when you bang the floor?"

Basically, I tell him what NOT to do, why not to do it, and what to do instead. But the "what to do instead" MUST be related to what he was doing in the first place, and why he was doing it. THAT'S the key to this working, ime.

Ime, this helps kids know that you value their desires, and that you will help them find socially acceptable ways to do what they want. It also teaches impulse control, and helps them learn how to redirect themselves (at least it did with ds1).

When people used to ask "well, what DO you do?" I'd say something like "We don't punish. There really isn't any one thing that I do *instead* of punishing. I work with him. I try to figure out the impulse behind what he's doing, and find an alternative that acceptable to both of us." Or I also used the phrase "mutually agreeable solution."
I never got questioned much. It could have been because I used big phrases, and sounded confident. Ds1 was really easy going, and fairly cooperative and considerate for a toddler, so that helped a lot too.

When my toddler throws a tantrum because another kid takes a toy away from her, they say, `she`s old enough to understand she needs to share, just pop her butt``

"Your child is old enough to understand that snatching toys away is NOT the same as sharing."

If ds1 cried because a toy was taken away, I would calmly ask the child for the toy back. If they wouldn't give it back, I would have tried to soothe him, or redirect him to another toy.
If he took a toy from another child, I would insist that he give it back, and try to find a way to ask the child for the toy.

eta- Imo, at best, punishment teaches kids to behave for self centered reasons. "I won't hit the dog because it hurts her" vs "I won't hit the dog because I don't want a time out."

[Astraia]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Try either ctrl+shift or left Alt+shift.

Ctrl+shift did it, thank you!

I never knew how hard it was to function on a computer without a question mark until now!

[Astraia]

Thank you, Becky, that was helpful. I think that's what I WANT to be doing and have been working towards, in my own haphazard sort of way, but haven't been able to articulate it.

I've never asked for advice from anyone, I just share a bit of what I'm dealing with at the time and then they tell me what to do. Sometimes they just observe what I'm doing with my daughter and then tell me, "that's never going to work, you should just do X." Sometimes they ask me directly, "you said last week you were having problems getting Nigella to eat breakfast. My kid is doing the same thing! What did you do to fix it?" (me: I let her snack while she wanders around the living room. Them: "well you can't do that!")

Because I've had no idea what discipline style I was going for, or what method I was planning to use to curb unwanted behaviour, I couldn't say, "that's not what we do" or "thank you for your opinion, but we're doing such-and-such instead" because I didn't know what we were doing! I couldn't say, "following my child's lead and trying to prevent tears from everyone involved" because they'd think I was an idiot, but that's basically what I've been doing.

I think in general, as a parent, I lack confidence. I'm great in our own home but as soon as I have an observer I get flummoxed and start second-guessing myself, so when someone offers an opinion and I don't have something concrete to fall back on, I start do doubt myself and my methods even more.

But thank you to everyone! I have ways to redirect if I don't have an answer, snappy comebacks if I get pissed off, and something to say when I'm asked, "what DO you do?"

Do you figure if I fake confidence long enough it'll start to come naturally? Lol.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Astraia

Ctrl+shift did it, thank you!

I never knew how hard it was to function on a computer without a question mark until now!

You are welcome.