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Vatican Says that Ordaining Women Priests is a Crime Like Sex Abuse of Children - Page 8

post #141 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
Actually, no. I would see it as an internal matter that the denomination in question needs to address as it sees fit.
And Mother Church is doing a fine job of holding her own feet over the fire.
Wow. I'm not sure how anybody could find the systematic abuse of children and the sheltering of pedophiles an "internal matter." And when any organization is in charge of policing itself, it's always bad news. In the case of the Vatican, it's been spectacularly bad, with John Paul an active participant in the systematic reshuffling of the preditors.

If that's a fine job, I'd hate to see a bad one.
post #142 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
You can call it "media bias", but the truth of the matter is that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up their own sins, and they have shown little to no real remorse, IMO, over both the sins as well as the cover-ups.

If this decades-long scandal was the product another denomination, I have a feeling you'd be all over them. I have no problem holding my own church's feet to the fire here.
I am incredibly upset about this ongoing sex scandal and I converted to Catholicism in the middle of it. I became Catholic because of the theologies the Church teaches are true, given to us by the Magisterium - a group over the course of two millenia that I am sure we can all agree brought together deficient human men to create something extraordinary and divinely inspired... our Church's backbone in the way of teachings via Tradition and the interpretation of the Holy Gospel.

Now, I am sad and angered that power has corrupted some of these individuals. We are all prone to bad choices from petty gossip, to covering our tracks (for example , I have even been known to not make a complete confession because I was too embarrassed to tell the priest all of it). We all like to protect ourselves and what we hold dear. IS THAT RIGHT in every instance? No. Was it right for these Bishops to protect pedophiles... ABSOLUTELY NOT.

With that said, I get really aggravated when I read these types of constant nagging comments about the actions of those in the Church hierarchy over the last few decades. Any practicing Catholic can only hope that those responsible and those who worked in conjunction with the perpetrators to cover up the sinful crimes have made a true and holy confession and have been absolved of their wrongdoing. And that they are truly contrite and sorry.

The Church has responded in agony and sorrow, with apologies and huge sums of money. This should never have happened in the first place - WE ALL AGREE ON THAT - but what at this point should the Church do that it hasn't done, Trigger?

The fate of the souls of all the men involved in these sex crimes should be of paramount importance to any Christian Catholic, we as a body are joined together to help each other gain heaven. If you want less than that for these men, please explain yourself. Jesus Himself was clear that sin is sin and separates us from God and we ALL need Him to be able to be sanctified and to be with God after we die - from SAHMs who yell at their kids to those who commit the most heinous of acts. All of us.

My eyes are almost bleeding with tears for the children who were abused and for their families who feel so incredibly betrayed by those they trusted most. The crime of sexual abuse by a man in a position of supreme trust is emotionally the most devastating. I empathize and pray for the victims daily. I cannot fathom their struggle and the damage they have incurred. I am NOT defending their perpetrators as much as offering that every single soul who has ever been born on this planet has required salvation and has not deserved it - no matter how small or how large the sinful crimes that have been committed.

Once again, I abhor what these men did, I abhor how power can corrupt even the most pious of souls and I abhor that any human being is struggling with a proclivity to sexually abusing children. All are bad. No arguments here.

The vast majority of priests and religious are good and holy people, self-sacrifcing and driven to help humanity and that should not be overlooked. A few bad apples should not spoil the reputation of the bunch. The social justice mission of our Church is profoundly important and is being overshadowed by the actions of a very few men who succumbed to base, sinful desires or power and arrogance.

Our Church is altogether GOOD and not BAD despite your efforts to demonstrate otherwise and despite CNN and any other media network's efforts to diminish that work.
post #143 of 150
Thread Starter 
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...021519,00.html

Quote:
"You are just ignoring a gift when you bury it in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. We shouldn't just be satisfied with the status quo. The Holy Spirit has sent the priests that we need, but our hierarchy is refusing to recognize them."
post #144 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post
Wow. I'm not sure how anybody could find the systematic abuse of children and the sheltering of pedophiles an "internal matter." And when any organization is in charge of policing itself, it's always bad news. In the case of the Vatican, it's been spectacularly bad, with John Paul an active participant in the systematic reshuffling of the preditors.

If that's a fine job, I'd hate to see a bad one.
Wow! If that were true, I'd hate us too! If you have evidence that the Church was a place for systematic abuse of children with Pope John Paul II participating, you'd better let the Vatican know. They're thinking of declaring him a saint!

ETA: I don't think it's an internal matter, but in all the cases where there has been an accusation, the Church has cooperated with the proper secular authorities. There are some guilty parties who have not been terribly forthcoming with information, but seriously, they participated in the abuse of children. What makes you think that their moral standards are so high that they'd be willing to out themselves? If you have information on any abuse that has not yet been reported or brought to trial, I suggest you report it to the appropriate secular authorities. Really, I think the Church would be happier to have any corruption cleaned out.
post #145 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post
Wow! If that were true, I'd hate us too! If you have evidence that the Church was a place for systematic abuse of children with Pope John Paul II participating, you'd better let the Vatican know. They're thinking of declaring him a saint!
The Vatican was part of the system/problem.

I don't "hate" my church, btw. I am very disappointed in, and often angry with, the Roman Catholic patriarchal hierarchy; but I love my church (as defined: The Body of Christ).
post #146 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
The heirarchy has stated time and again that women cannot, and will never, be priests. It cannot be done.

This is a dead horse topic with the media and certain groups insist on dragging out and beating in a public square.

How about this- instead of harping on a practice will never happen- encourage young men to discern the priesthood. The focus on ordaining women has taken to focus off where it needs to be- encouraging our young men to the priesthood. Retreats need to be scheduled, special presentations regarding the wonderful vocation of the priesthood should be presented, meetings and presentations by young orthodox priests, etc...
post #147 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post
ETA: I don't think it's an internal matter, but in all the cases where there has been an accusation, the Church has cooperated with the proper secular authorities.
Really? All?
My guess is that they won't likely cooperate this time any more than they have in the past.

From here: A federal U.S. judge is asking the Vatican to co-operate in serving the pope and two other top officials with court papers that stem from decades-old allegations of sexual abuse by a priest in Wisconsin.
snip..
When faced with similar requests the Vatican has made service difficult, time-consuming and expensive by insisting, for example, that documentation be translated into Latin, one of the Vatican's official languages.
snip
The Vatican has argued that it isn't liable for clerical sex-abuse cases because according to canon law and the structure of the Catholic Church, bishops — not Rome — are responsible for disciplining pedophile priests.

Milwaukee Archbishop Rembert Weakland had complained about Murphy in a 1996 letter to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the powerful Vatican office then-Cardinal Ratzinger led from 1981 to his election as pope in 2005.


If you really want to have your stomach turned read a bit about how the Mount Cashel Orphanage "situation" was handled including the allegations that the Vatican liquidated and transferred assets out of Canada to avoid paying the court ordered settlements. There were 300+ victims dating back 40 years before the orphanage was shut down.

Honestly how anyone can say that this is not systemic or is just an "internal matter" is beyond me.
post #148 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
The heirarchy has stated time and again that women cannot, and will never, be priests. It cannot be done.

This is a dead horse topic with the media and certain groups insist on dragging out and beating in a public square.
This will never be a dead horse topic as long as there are women who feel the calling to priesthood/the diaconate, and those who support them, "certain groups" and the media nonwithstanding.

With all due respect, P&L - to insist otherwise is to have your head stuck firmly in the sand. You can deny it all you like, but this issue is not going away no matter what the hierarchy states.
post #149 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post
Really? All?
If you really want to have your stomach turned read a bit about how the Mount Cashel Orphanage "situation" was handled including the allegations that the Vatican liquidated and transferred assets out of Canada to avoid paying the court ordered settlements. There were 300+ victims dating back 40 years before the orphanage was shut down.

Honestly how anyone can say that this is not systemic or is just an "internal matter" is beyond me.

Karen, I'd love to educate myself on the Mount Cashel situation. If you have any particularly helpful articles, books or links, post them or PM me. Thanks so much.
post #150 of 150
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=8074

Quote:
Pope Benedict remarked that St. Bridget’s life demonstrates the importance of women in the Church. As a mother she was “the spiritual center of the family,” as so many women are. Her leadership role in the Church later in life, the Pope observed, shows that “in the great Christian tradition, the dignity of women and their place in the Church is recognized.” He added that “while not overlapping that of the ordained priesthood, they are equally important for the spiritual growth of the community.”
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