"can't get approved for adoption" ? - Page 2

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by MissinNYC

Well, yeah, you shouldn't say you can't, if it's your choice not to. I think you have a great reason not to (not that it's my business!) so why say you can't? Just say that birth order is important to you and you choose not to adopt right now because of it. But saying you can't gives a false impression, I think.

The other reasons are still in place. My primary point, though, is that most people *could* adopt, say, a 16 year old boy. But is that REALLY what we all mean when we're asking someone "why not adopt?"

[MissinNYC]

Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness

The other reasons are still in place. My primary point, though, is that most people *could* adopt, say, a 16 year old boy. But is that REALLY what we all mean when we're asking someone "why not adopt?"

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the OP was talking about people who say, unasked, that they cannot adopt. I have never asked anyone why they haven't/won't/can't adopt, but people tell me completely independently all the time that they really wish they were as good as me, as loving as me, as sacrificial as me, because clearly foster parents are some sort of saints. The truth is that although there are situations of extreme poverty, of special needs, or convictions, or whatever, the majority of people could adopt. It's totally cool if they don't want to. But it's irritating when they clearly feel guilty (which they shouldn't) and say how they can't possibly adopt when they very much could, they just choose not to, given their circumstances.

It might be something that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS as to why they were not approved. Perhaps possession of an illegal substance during their college years, a DUI, theft on a dare from friends.

Agreed. But if people don't want to share their circumstances or why they cannot be approved, they shouldn't bring it up in the first place. These are not conversations that adoptive parents start.

[ilovemygirl]

I think the complexities of adoption are a HUGE shock to most prospective adoptive parents. The time frames, the paperwork, the costs, the approvals, it's all very intimidating when you first look at it. I can totally see how someone would walk away from a first meeting with an agency saying they can't do this.
I also think what most people are saying when they make this comment is that they are ineligible to adopt for the type or types of adoption they are comfortable with and I don't think they should feel obligated or pressured to go into detail about those specifics with anyone.

[Smithie]

...."I also think what most people are saying when they make this comment is that they are ineligible to adopt for the type or types of adoption they are comfortable with and I don't think they should feel obligated or pressured to go into detail about those specifics with anyone."



As to "adoptive parents don't start these conversations," all I can say is, I have been the horrified third party listening to an adoptive mom talk about all the "resources being wasted" on fertility treatments by a woman we both knew who was trying to get pg. Granted, she was not speaking to the infertile woman directly, but it was still pretty hateful. And Holy Jerusalem Bunny Rabbits, did she really want the woman in question to pursue adoption as her Plan B (or Plan C I guess, since Plan A would have been to get pg without difficulty)?

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom

I hear some people say thIs. Now, I know some adoption agencies won't approve gay couples or single people and I know most adoption agencies won't approve older people, people with certain disabilities, and no one will approve an adoption by people who have a conviction of child abuse or neglect. And I know there are income requirements and mental health requirements.... But I was surprised at how easily we were approved to become foster parents. I assume adoption approval will be rather easy too.

But I think most people who say they couldn't get approved for adoption are really saying something else. I think most people could get approved. I think that either they believe myths about adoption, they just don't want to adopt, or they don't want to adopt certain children. I feel like people who say they couldn't get approved for adoption aren't being honest. What do you think?

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom

I should clarify. I hear this reason given in the context of fertility treatments. They say they are doing IVF because they can't adopt. I do "let it go" and in fact I have stopped encouraging adoption in general. I don't think it's suitable for most people - they want genetic children, period. I never pressure anyone to have or not have kids, adopt or foster, etc.

I just wanted to talk about honesty. I strongly get the feeling that adoption myths are so prevelant that people literally lie to themselves about it. I was curious what others thought about that.

But, if someone BELIEVES one of those "adoption myths" then they aren't really lying to themselves, they may be operating under misinformation. But that's not the same as not being honest with themselves.

Saying you are doing an IVF because you "can't adopt" can have many many different meanings. It may mean that the person believes they won't get approved and therefore won't look into it further. It may mean that they have fertility coverage with their insurance but not the $$$$ out of pocket for an adoption. It may mean that they don't feel they have the time to wait out the process. It may mean that they have looked into avenues for adoption and have determined that fertilty treatments give them better odds.

And it may just mean that the woman wants to experience pregnancy and can't adopt because they don't get that experience and there's nothing wrong with that.

I have to say though that this idea really seems like it's questioning motives for persuing fertility treatments and as someone who did IVF, it kinda bugs me. While I have never uttered the words "we can't adopt" or " we couldn't get approved" I would have if someone had continued to bring it up. Because it can basically end the conversation when I don't want to talk about it or try to "justify" my reasons to someone who I don't have to justify it to anyway.

[contactmaya]

As a non american citizen (but resident) of limited means, i doubt i would qualify for adoption. I have two children who are US citizens, but i am not. They are on foodstamps. They wouldnt even consider me. My only choice is to conceive naturally.
I would already be looking into adoption for my third child, if i knew i had a a chance. I see my family as having 3 children. It doesnt matter whether my third is bio or not. My first two are.

Ive even mentioned this to friends, and they say, wow, you must really want another child. I dont see it that way. I just see it as completing my family, and given my age (43), i may not be able to conceive as easily as i did in the past.
I welcome any advice, and if you seriously think i have a chance, then lmk.
Maya

ps i think that despite my limited means, a child would be happy in my family. I see my financial situation as something that is temporary.
At the moment, my kids (2,4) do not have their own room, as i live in a large studio, and i like it that way. We are a co sleeping family. I mean, they woudlnt even consider me on those grounds alone. Would they have a problem with the fact that i am still breastfeeding both my kids?

[MissinNYC]

And it may just mean that the woman wants to experience pregnancy and can't adopt because they don't get that experience and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's not true, then. "Can't" means cannot. And if you choose to have a bio kids, that's awesome for you. I think it's great, really. I don't care who adopts. But to say you "can't" is not honest.

I really don't think there are many adoptive parents going around telling people they really should be adopting, and asking people why they aren't. I know my experience is that people who start talking about reasons they aren't adopting are people who feel badly about not doing so, and they are the ones who bring it up. No one has ot justify their fertility choices, but I think we should all own our choices or our priorities (like the perfectly valid choice to prioritize pregnancy, or nursing, or biological connection, or finances, or whatever) and say that adoption isn't right for your family. There are ways around the question, should someone be so rude as to question you, that don't contribute to adoption myths or stereotypes.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by MissinNYC

There are ways around the question, should someone be so rude as to question you, that don't contribute to adoption myths or stereotypes.

That's heading down a rather dangerous road, don't you think? Does that mean that I should start challenging PAPs at the grocery store who say stuff like, "Oh, I definitely want to adopt, because I just feel I should rescue those poor children," or "Race doesn't matter, I'm colorblind and I'll love my child so much they won't care that they're different," and all that other stuff?

Those contribute to adoption myths and stereotypes too. If you're not going to call all of 'em, I don't see why you should pick one particular group to call out.

While we're splitting hairs though...really, isn't the comment "can't get APPROVED for adoption" a very different animal than "can't adopt". Grammar police aside, people use "can't" for "won't" interchangeably in uncomfortable circumstances. "I'm sorry, ma'am, I can't let you do that." "I just can't accept that you don't feed your child organic hand-pounded grain like me." "I can't meet you at the park, I have an appointment elsewhere."

[marsupial-mom]

Just to be absolutely clear, I dont want someone who doesn't want to adopt to adopt. And I won't pressure or hassle anyone getting IVF to adopt.

In fact, I'm not even sure they should consider adoption at all since it's clearly way way way down on their list... It's plan G or plan H for them. Plan A was to conceive without intervention. Plan B was first fertility treatment. Plan C was second treatmen... And so on...

It saddens me that so few adoptive patents choose adoption as plan A. It really saddens me!
I'm not yet mature enough to deal with those feelings without being hurtful to infertile people so I don't even talk about it in real life, only online. I never ever tell someone they should adopt. And I certainly don't tell anyone they should adopt instead of doing fertility stuff. I think that's their decision, and frankly I don't think they'd make good adoptive parents until they choose it themselves without any pressure.

I'm talking about people who say they can't get approved when in fact they're just speculating. By claiming that they can't get approved they're spreading rumors about adoption. And that annoys me.

[laughingfox]

Originally Posted by MissinNYC

State adoption is free.

"Free" is relative. The income lost from missed work and/or the money needed for babysitting/childcare so that parents can take the many required classes can unfortunately be more than some people can afford.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness

We're unwilling to adopt a child that would disrupt our existing children's birth order. Perhaps that means I shouldn't say we're "unable to adopt," but I do say it.

FWIW, Many of us who have foster adopted have had the same commitment. State and foster adoptions don't mean you have to adopt out of birth order, and I'd like to see accurate information being shared.

Regarding the original topic, I haven't heard anyone say they haven't been approved. However, I have met a couple folks who were approved and waited for so many years that they gave up. Especially in one case, I heard the story several times and I just could not figure out how it was that he never switched agencies. He professed to wanting to adopt very, very badly, and yet, not badly enough to switch agencies when it wasn't working out.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

Does that mean that I should start challenging PAPs at the grocery store who say stuff like, "Oh, I definitely want to adopt, because I just feel I should rescue those poor children," or "Race doesn't matter, I'm colorblind and I'll love my child so much they won't care that they're different," and all that other stuff?

I do.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom

It saddens me that so few adoptive patents choose adoption as plan A. It really saddens me!
I'm not yet mature enough to deal with those feelings without being hurtful to infertile people so I don't even talk about it in real life, only online. I never ever tell someone they should adopt. And I certainly don't tell anyone they should adopt instead of doing fertility stuff. I think that's their decision, and frankly I don't think they'd make good adoptive parents until they choose it themselves without any pressure.

I'm talking about people who say they can't get approved when in fact they're just speculating. By claiming that they can't get approved they're spreading rumors about adoption. And that annoys me.

I'm adopted. Adoption would have been my first choice for both children, but it was simply not accessible enough, if not "ineligible" for various reason(like me being only 18 when I had my first).

I think it's unfortunate that it's not something I could have done from the beginning. I understand why there are so many requirements. But at the same time, it does rule out a lot of people that would otherwise be willing and good parents to those children.

[RedOakMomma]

Originally Posted by laughingfox

"Free" is relative. The income lost from missed work and/or the money needed for babysitting/childcare so that parents can take the many required classes can unfortunately be more than some people can afford.

(Re: state adoption)

I'm glad this was written. I agree that the time it takes to be a foster parent can make it expensive/difficult for many parents, but even beyond that there are costs that some parents can't afford. Another angle is that "free" may be true in the monetary sense, but after reading and watching all the trials and heartache and challenges faced by moms in this forum, I would hardly call it free.

We chose to adopt internationally in part because we felt we could dig deep and part with money, but that our ability to dig deep and go through the emotional potential roller coaster of foster-adopt was not there. Our lives were already full of enough challenges and heartbreak. I know it's not THAT hard for everyone, but when you adopt you have to be in a place to be a healthy parent...and both dh and I weren't sure we could stay healthy through the trials of a potentially difficult foster-adopt process.

[WTHamI?]

I'm sorry, but this makes me angry. Have I said I don't think we would be eligible for adoption? Yes. When asked - I certainly didn't bring it up. Do I honestly believe we may not be approved? Yes. And "why" is personal and completely none of your business. Have we actually tried to adopt and been rejected? No. Because we aren't really that interested in adoption at this point. And the reasons why we would choose fertility treatments before adoption are also personal and none of your business. So asking why we don't just adopt, and then getting completely judgmental and assuming I'm either lying or ignorant when I say I don't think it's an option because I was looking for a vague and quick way to change the subject, is just appalling to me. The person asking the question unsolicited is the one being rude. Were you thinking that they had just never even heard the word adoption? Wow, that exists? You mean there are kids out there without homes? I had no idea! I promise, someone having fertility problems is perfectly aware of adoption as an option, but if they aren't already pursuing it they have their reasons. People who say they don't think they would be approved probably genuinely believe that, whether or not it's true is not your concern.

I completely support adoption and have several family members who were adopted. But it's not for everyone and making someone having fertility issues feel horrible for not doing everything in their power to try and adopt instead is not ok.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by WTHamI?

I completely support adoption and have several family members who were adopted. But it's not for everyone and making someone having fertility issues feel horrible for not doing everything in their power to try and adopt instead is not ok.

In defense of the OP though, she is not talking about giving people a verbal lashing and giving people the inquisition as to why they haven't adopted. People proactively come up TO HER and say, "Oh I wish I could adopt but we wouldn't be approved."

Again, that's a different situation than someone in conversation being told, "Well, you're lame, if you REALLY wanted to you could adopt, you're just not trying hard enough" when they did not instigate the conversation in that vein.

I think everyone agrees that nobody should ever be subjected to stupid, insensitive, and grossly invasive questions and statements by a stranger determined to butt into your life.

[wallabi]

Originally Posted by MissinNYC

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the OP was talking about people who say, unasked, that they cannot adopt. I have never asked anyone why they haven't/won't/can't adopt, but people tell me completely independently all the time that they really wish they were as good as me, as loving as me, as sacrificial as me, because clearly foster parents are some sort of saints.

hmm...but surely these can not all be people undergoing treatement for infertility that are coming up to you and starting this converstaion out of the blue. I mean, there just aren`t that many people going through IVF for that to be the case. undoubtedly people coming up to you unasked and gushing has its own issues, but I don`t see that it has much bearing on the motives and thoughts a person going through IVF has towards adoption.


meanwhile, (sorry, mulitiquote - what is that?), marsupial mom wrote:
In fact, I'm not even sure they should consider adoption at all since it's clearly way way way down on their list... It's plan G or plan H for them. Plan A was to conceive without intervention. Plan B was first fertility treatment. Plan C was second treatmen... And so on...


This statement really, really bugs me. So much so that instead of doing what I should be doing this morning I am here writing, even though I doubt I can make you see another perspective.

Do you think that when dh and I decided to make a family, we sat down and made a list of all the possible ways, and the children that would result from them, and assigned them an order and gave them points for desirability, and placed adoption in the 7th or 8th spot??? No, dear, we did not. We said, lets have a family and set about it the simplest way we knew how.

Now, a year down that road, it became evident that something wasn`t right, and after a year of invasive testing, doctors with poor listening skills and a cancer scare, it was eventually decided that I had an illness (infertility is, after all, a physical or chemical health problem, frequently the result of an (often painful or disruptive) underlying health condition no one will treat us for until we try to make a baby), and the process of treating that illness was also, hopefully, supposed to improve our chances of getting pregnant, and we did some additional fertility treatments following that, in the hope that, in a year, at the most, we would be bringing our child home. In the end, that did not happen, and when it became clear that we were not going to be starting our family with a child made from bits of the two of us, we started looking at other ways to build a family.

Now, what, exactly, is it that bothers you about that? When do you think we should have stopped persuing fertility treatments and started the whole long journey of learning and uncertainty and waiting that is trying to adopt so as to be fit PAPs? Why is it that you are not sure we should have considered adoption?

Seriously, I want to know.

ETA: One more thing -
you wrote:
It saddens me that so few adoptive patents choose adoption as plan A. It really saddens me!
I'm not yet mature enough to deal with those feelings without being hurtful to infertile people so I don't even talk about it in real life, only online.

I don`t quite get this, because surely the responsibility to choose adoption first does not rest only with people who turn out to be infertile?

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by Sierra

I do.

Well, I do too, I've got too much of a big mouth not to--but I have been called b*y, One of Those Angry Ungrateful Adoptees, mean, blah blah blah too. People do not like other who stomp all over their fantasies. Even here, people get a little uppity should someone dare to suggest something that they're not quite ready to wrap their mind around, especially (oddly) BTDT people trying to point out errors to PAPs.

If I am called mean and hostile for doing the same thing (albeit from a different vantage point) then I think that people should be aware and prepared that they can and WILL be seen as mean and hostile and insensitive when they say things that other people don't want to hear. On both ends.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by wallabi

Now, what, exactly, is it that bothers you about that? When do you think we should have stopped persuing fertility treatments and started the whole long journey of learning and uncertainty and waiting that is trying to adopt so as to be fit PAPs? Why is it that you are not sure we should have considered adoption?

Well, here is the rub when it comes to the emotional minefield of infertility and adoption. In the same breath that you hear "adoption should be first choice" (implying NO pregnancy attempts) you will have some people also saying that fertile couples should be downgraded in adoption priority. People have opposite viewpoints even within themselves.

I think when you hear concerns about infertility and adoption it's more along the lines that people really need to give themselves time to grieve that, and that there is concern that people rush too quickly into adoption thinking it will cure them of their pain and grief. I'm not going to bore anyone with my spiel about that.

But agree, emotion rules as to what that line is. If you dump pregnancy attempts too soon, you'll probably be called out for being in denial of grief over it. If you wait too long, then you'll be told obviously you didn't want to bad enough. I guess the only perfect people to adopt are infertile people who didn't know it and chose adoption as a first choice so they never find out that they are either. :P

This is why I think it's best to just dismiss weird strangers' comments. You just never know what people are thinking, where they've been, and while it's really annoying dealing with people who think that you should care about what they wanted to do/think, sometimes you just have to smile and nod. IMO.

[miche28]

You know when I hear "can't", I don't expect that the person has exhausted every possibility in the universe. I hear, we considered it and there are big obstacles that we don't believe we can overcome.

There are countries where you will not be considered for adoption for a whole host of pretty strange reasons (BMI, gender of existing child, minor mental illness, etc..) as well as the usual things like criminal convictions, marital status, age.

There are also family situations where the children available in programs where the family is otherwise eligible don't work. For example, we have a three year old - adopting in birth order with a minimum spread of 18 months that the ministry needs means we'd need a toddler or younger. Impossible, we were told, unless there were major medical issues (in which case, they'd prefer that the age spread be much wider).

It's kind of like when someone says they 'can't' have bio-kids: are they only being honest with you if they've exhausted every possible medical avenue, no matter the cost/risk/likelihood of success? I would think not.

Either way, I think this is something I would usually leave alone. Same as when a mother tells me she couldn't breastfeed: it is probably not true that that it was impossible, but it's certainly true that she wasn't able to meet her goals for breastfeeding, so I accept that and support it (and provide info when it might be helpful).