Options regarding Mandatory Vaccines in France - Page 2

[Everest]

Pause for a moment. Take a deep breath. Now .... know deep in your hearts that I think you're all beautiful, sensitive and intelligent creatures. Take a moment to really let that sink in.

Feeling all warm n' fuzzy again here at Mothering.com? Good. I'm really happy for y'all.

Right, now let's return to the topic.

So — we have established that the opening statement of this thread:

"The diptheria, polio and tetanus vaccines are mandatory in France" is actually incorrect or, at least, incomplete.

I don't think I'm splitting hairs here. It's not a question of "the long form" or "the short form" - just the "factually complete and correct form" which is what I'm trying to exact here. Given that this thread may well be perused by those living outside of France who are unfamiliar with its legal system and human rights record, and are perhaps embarking upon some research as part of a consideration of whether or not to move to the country, the thread title "Options regarding mandatory vaccinations in France" contains an intrinsic and misleading assumption—whether inadvertent or otherwise.

If I were to ask you:

"Do you use your forehand or backhand when you slap your wife repeatedly for being oversensitive?"
 

it's clear that there are several assumptions in the question that perhaps need to be addressed first before any answer is attempted. If, for instance, you were asked this question and you weren't married, or you were but you slapped your wife repeatedly for other reasons, you may voice an exception to this question.

Similarly, I would take exception to my "options" regarding my child's "mandatory" vaccinations in France being listed in terms of pharmaceutical products. 

Edited by Everest - 8/14/12 at 3:59pm

[IsaFrench]

Everest, i have the impression that you come in this discussion .... just to annoy people .... is my impression correct ?

[Everest]

No. That's not the only reason.   ;-)

I am a Brit who has been living in France for a year. My partner and I are expecting our first child in a few weeks. Our doctor here barely speaks a word of English and our French is rudimentary at best—so it's been tricky discovering the facts regarding childbirth in France.

Recently we met an English-speaking midwife who has been really wonderful. We told her that we were still "on the fence" regarding vaccines and asked her for some pointers to help us better research the topic. 

I'm glad we raised the issue with her. For instance, I was under the impression that our child's first "scheduled vaccination" was not until they were 8 weeks old. She informed us that hospitals often seek to administer BCG before the baby leaves the hospital. As a result, we have specified "No vaccinations are to be given" on our birth plan (which we have translated into French to minimize the potential for communication difficulties.)

One of my central concerns is not the efficacy of vaccines but their timing and risks of adverse side-effects on a case-by-case (per vaccine) basis. Eight weeks (let alone a few days) just seems very, very early to be sticking needles into a new body. During the course of researching our options, I came across this thread at Mothering.com. 

While some vaccines appear to be safer than others, we should note that each vaccination carries a certain amount of risk. In turn, this risk can be increased by biological and environmental factors (e.g. quality of diet), timing, and the combined effects of receiving multiple vaccines administered at once.

I hope that we can come together to share what we know (or think we know) and become more collectively edified on this topic. It's emotive enough without us trying to second-guess each other's motives for participation. Please let's just stick to the facts.

Edited by Everest - 8/15/12 at 6:12am

[IsaFrench]

Please Everest, talk again with your english speaking midwife & ask her if she has any more recent information regarding the issue or if indeed she is sure of her facts .....

 i have NEVER met ANY parent who gave birth in France (only lived 7 years in UK and 3 years in USA, the rest in France) to whose child ANY vaccination was done in hospital before leaving after giving birth ....

vaccination does start at 2 months of age, IF the parent goes to the doctor and get a prescription THEN goes to the pharmacist to buy said vaccineTHEN keeps said vaccine vials in the fridge THEN goes back to the doctor to get the vaccination administered ...

=> it is VERY unlikely that anybody would administer a vaccination in your back whilst you are in hospital

... the way your write, you seem very frightened about the situation ... and you remind me of a British family i met over 20 years ago ... who loved stopping at fast food places usually but wouldn't stop by in any in France during their holiday because they were worried that they would be served horse meat in their burgers ...... (=horse meat being more expensive, = VERY unlikely !!!!)

may i ask which area of France you are in ? (pm me if you like)

i might be able to help you by searching on-line for ressources local to you where people speak at least a little english ...

+ my youngest is 5 and never had the BCG because it's been phased out for babies since my older children were born

i understand that you feel happy to have met a health care professional who speaks your language, .... but from what you say in the previous post, i have the impression that the "facts" you were told .... are not quite accurate ....

[babymonster]

Originally Posted by IsaFrench 

vaccination does start at 2 months of age, IF the parent goes to the doctor and get a prescription THEN goes to the pharmacist to buy said vaccineTHEN keeps said vaccine vials in the fridge THEN goes back to the doctor to get the vaccination administered ...

Yes, this.

BCG was never mentioned to me at all.  It is listed in the vaccine schedule we were given, but is only suggested for high risk families.  IME no-one seems to be too concerned if you want to delay or skip vaccines - the only problem would be when/if you wanted to enroll your child in school.

[Everest]

Thanks for your responses. We live in Roussillon. I spoke to the midwife last week so perhaps things have changed since you had your last child five years ago Isa? I am not suggesting that the hospital would attempt to administer a vaccine without parental consent but I'll certainly double-check with her in case I got the wrong end of the stick!

In any case, my partner and I remain 100% confident in our ability to exercise our will when it comes to the myriad of options for raising our children and, as such, we are not prone to fear and dark imaginings about it. 

[IsaFrench]

read this, especially page 25 and page 34

http://www.vaccination-idf.fr/documents/presentations/BCG_et_enfants_IDF.pdf

it does explain that BCG was stopped for the general population in 2007

BUT that there's a strong prevalence still in the Paris area for children whose parents come from certain countries

it does say, page 6, that the W.H.O. (O.M.S in French) recommends a single dose, at birth or when first in contact with a health care professional

for "les pays d'endémicité tuberculeuse élevée"

SO, it is quite possible that in the Paris area, babies from populations at risk, are being injected shortly after birth & before leaving the hospital

.... and i do not know how much information is given to parents in that case

from what  i heard beforehand from other sources, BCG is only recommended in "ile de France" & since you live in Roussillon ....

(unless your area has recently seen a stong influx of population from Roumania or other former eastern bloc countries ???

who live outside in poor conditions and are making the local health authorities re-think their options and "push" for more vaccination coverage lately ?)

Edited by IsaFrench - 8/16/12 at 5:51pm

[Everest]

Thriving traveller community in these parts plus other settlers from northern Africa - not sure what they brought in their couscous but I'm going to take my chances. :-)

[IsaFrench]

not so much couscous eating population, the document i refered to showed a map of the world outlining principaly the southern half of Africa (+ mentionned on another page that the prevalence is rising in "les pays de l' Est")

[Everest]

Thanks for all your help.

Our little baby boy was born last Tuesday (28th August) - all went really well! :-) :-)

8 pounds, 13 ounces. Full head of soft black hair. He's adorable! :-) :-)

[babymonster]

Oh, lovely news!  Congratulations!  

[IsaFrench]

Congratulations ! hope you are recovering easily now ..... wishing you well ....

[pamom12]

Many studies have shown the rise in autism in the United States due to the rise in vaccines given to children. 1 in 88 children have autism in the United States. And many more have behavioral problems because of nervous conditions.

I have a two year old with no vaccines. She is completely healthy and happy with no problems. I worked with children and adults that have autism and mental retardation and I would never wish that on anyone's child. Therefore, I will never vaccinate and never endorse vaccinations. I do not believe they help in any way. I believe that the drug companies want to make money and they are not giving doctors and nurses the correct information on the study of these drugs and the drug side effects. It would not be the first time corporations lie to the public to cause harm and greed.

I believe that Everest is right.

God has all authority. Not the government. Many people die defending their rights given to them by God.

If the government ever made it MANDATORY for me to harm my child. I would rebuke whatever the consequences.

Thanks for hearing my point of view.
 

[JuliaMaite]

Thanks for reviving this post :).  I also found this thread doing research on vaccination requirements [for school entry] and by no means was I confused by the title to think otherwise, particularly since you ONLY needed to read the OP's post to clarify matters :).  The thread very clearly and early spoke about school and group activities.

My husband and I are considering going to Europe this summer to live there for a year or two (DDs and DH are european nationals, he's Basque from Spain side).  I have two daughters, my 5 year old has had one  DTaP shot (when she was 2 months old, she slept for 12 hours, scared me from 'delaying' vaxes to 'no vaxes' at the time) and a Polio vax given this past June.  My 3 year old daughter is unvaccinated, was only going to do Polio for her when she was four as well.  DTaP (or DT) and Polio are the only vaccines that I planned on giving them until age 12, and then reconsider MRM separately.  So I am relieved to see France only requires those.  (oh, excuse me, let me clarify, requires those for SCHOOL).

I read a little French, but it is hard for me to do internet research using the right key words.  Is there a website that specifies how many shots of diptheria, tatanus, and Polio are required?  Do they accept tethers?  I can have my daughter' doctor check to see if the one shot was sufficient for her.  Is there a website for LLL that I can start contacting from here?  We would probably move somewhere in the Basque area near Spain.
 

[JuliaMaite]

Originally Posted by JuliaMaite  We would probably move somewhere in the Basque area near Spain.

We would probably move to France, in the French Basque area near Spain, I meant.  We are still undecided on the country.

[babymonster]

My kids are vaccinated, so I didn't have a problem when I moved here.  I have friends who are very anti-vax and ended up having to get the course of 3 DTaPs so their kids could start school.

If I felt very uncomfortable with my kids having those vaccines, I would not hesitate to falsify their records.  We moved here with their red books from the UK which contain most of their medical history and their vaccinations.  No-one in France will send for their medical records from another country.  When you sign them up for school, they will ask you to bring their vaccination book.  Someone looks through it briefly to and check that they have had three DTaPs at some time or other.  And that's it.  Anyone could fill in a fake serial number, date, and signature.

Not that I am endorsing that kind of fraudulent activity of course 

[Everest]

Hey Mothering people. Everest here. I just wanted to say hello and also to let you know that our little boy Blaise is doing GREAT! He's four and a half months old now and thriving on his mother's breast milk. We're going to start him on biodynamic rice porridge and organic veggies from the garden very soon :-) He caught his first cold at Christmas and fought it off like a trooper! That's my boy.

My wife has taken Blaise for a couple of doctor's appointments. No vaccinations were given although they were offered. The doctor tried to make it sound like they were "obligatoire" in France - of course, my wife put the doc firmly but politely in their place! The doctor wants to give our boy some vaccinations when he is one. I won't be pushed into this. In fact, the more the doc tries to push it, the more I push back.

I can't help thinking that the aforementioned diet is more than enough protection for our children. We are not "chicken McNugget" people. We care deeply about the food we eat, how it is produced (usually grown by me) and cooked. I will not be coerced into vaccinating our boy just because it's obligatory for schooling purposes. I'm not 100% on the educational benefits of school either, but that's another story! LOL!

Anyway, big dollops of love to you lovely mothers. Glad this thread is alive and well. Fatherhood is an amazing trip too! :-)

[babymonster]

Originally Posted by Everest 

The doctor tried to make it sound like they were "obligatoire" in France

Oh yeah, that is always the way.  I think the French love to make rules, but they do also love to ignore them when it suits 

[mommy2ajdk]

I am very happy to have found this thread. I am moving from the US in July and have been very upset about the mandatory vaccine for entering school and activities. My three oldest are vaccinated but I truly believe my third child was injured by Vaccines. My 4th child is 4 yrs old and completely unvaxed. By the way he is the healthiest kid I ever had! Babymonster I am with your thoughts....I will do what I need to do to have my child attend school or activities but it won't be by vaccinating. Thank you for the information regarding how many are required because this was the info I needed.Cheers!