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Why has no unvaxed vs. Fully vaxed study been done??? - Page 2

post #21 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
What part of that statement are you having a hard time understanding?
I went to NVIC's website, and didn't find any products or services that they sell. I think you can order books with minimum donations. Does that count? I went to Generation Rescue's site, and they do have links to buy things, like T-shirts, books, and nutritional products for injured children. If more people were convinced that vaccines caused harm, fewer people would vaccinate, there would be fewer injured children, and less demand for products for injured children. My children are unvaccinated, and I don't anticipate them needing anything from Generation Rescue's website. But do you really think these organizations exist in order to sell t-shirts, books, and some supplements? If they did a vax/unvaxed study, the goal would be to help children, not to sell more t-shirts, lol.
post #22 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
I'm not really sure how much a study like this would cost, really? But I know that, for example, Generation Rescue paid $100,000 to put an ad in the NYT. So it seems like they'd have the money- or at least be able to get ahold of it- for something much more important.
Just because an organization spends $100,000 on something doesn't mean it has the many millions of dollars necessary for a study. And if it does happen to have a few million, it doesn't mean the charity should necessarily abandon all their current programs and direct all their resources to a study.

Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_dZe...layer_embedded regarding NVIC's study. I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars that is going to cost.
post #23 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
I went to NVIC's website, and didn't find any products or services that they sell. I think you can order books with minimum donations. Does that count? I went to Generation Rescue's site, and they do have links to buy things, like T-shirts, books, and nutritional products for injured children. If more people were convinced that vaccines caused harm, fewer people would vaccinate, there would be fewer injured children, and less demand for products for injured children. My children are unvaccinated, and I don't anticipate them needing anything from Generation Rescue's website. But do you really think these organizations exist in order to sell t-shirts, books, and some supplements? If they did a vax/unvaxed study, the goal would be to help children, not to sell more t-shirts, lol.
You can put whatever motives behind it you want, but profit is profit. I believe that many, if not most, in the anti-vax organizations are trying to help children. I believe the same for doctors and scientists. I also believe it's naive to categorize a group of people as good or bad. So it's relevant that anti-vax orgs make money off of their treatments, but that doesn't mean that they're not trying to help children. The exact same thing can be said of pharmaceutical companies.

It's my understanding that those orgs, like Generation Rescue, don't treat exclusively vax damaged people. And many people with autism, or autistic children, don't believe that vaccinations caused the autism, so they wouldn't be interested in treatments that "heal" them of vaccines. And many people don't believe that the treatments they suggest (chelation, DAN diet, etc) will help at all because they trust the science that's said that. However, if that same science was proved to be wrong about vaccines then that would make some more trusting of the people who have been claiming that all along. Along with the treatments that they were previously skeptical of. Alternative medicine is already a $34 billion a year industry, but it could be a lot more if people lose confidence in the scientific community.
post #24 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
Just because an organization spends $100,000 on something doesn't mean it has the many millions of dollars necessary for a study.

Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_dZe...layer_embedded regarding NVIC's study. I can't even imagine how many millions of dollars that is going to cost.
Yeah, it's kind of hard to say because we're talking about a theoretical study. So it could be huge... or not. Also, like I said, I don't know the actual amounts that those orgs have. Do you? Or are we all just speculating? I know that sounds harsh, but I really don't mean it like that. I don't know if their finances are public knowledge. If anyone knows, can I have a link?
post #25 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
You can put whatever motives behind it you want, but profit is profit.
So you think the increased t-shirt sales would make up for the many millions of dollars spent on a study?


Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
So it's relevant that anti-vax orgs make money off of their treatments, but that doesn't mean that they're not trying to help children. The exact same thing can be said of pharmaceutical companies.
Are you seriously comparing non-profit anti-vax organizations to the multi-multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
It's my understanding that those orgs, like Generation Rescue, don't treat exclusively vax damaged people.
I was unaware that Generation Rescue treated anybody medically.
post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
I don't know if their finances are public knowledge. If anyone knows, can I have a link?
http://www2.guidestar.org/
post #27 of 44


Dr. Dean Edell, the media doc, an ophthamologist by training has repeatedly said for over thirty years that such a study will NEVER be done because doctors do not want to deprive any child of the benefits of vaccination.

In the discussions I have had with medical doctors and drug manufacturers, such a study will never be done because an immune response cannot be faked with a placebo. That is their pre-eminent excuse.

Dr. Mendelsohn said that such a study has and will never be done. Therefore vaccines belong to a catagory of treatments referred to as unproven, if one wants to be kind; if one is to be accurate, vaccines are quackery.
post #28 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
So you think the increased t-shirt sales would make up for the many millions of dollars spent on a study?
No. I explained in my earlier post some of the ways they'd make money. You think the only money they get is from T-shirt sales?


Quote:
Are you seriously comparing non-profit anti-vax organizations to the multi-multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry?
Yes, I was comparing aspects of the two. They both have financial incentive and humanitarian incentive.

Quote:
I was unaware that Generation Rescue treated anybody medically.
They direct people to doctors that they approve of:


http://www.generationrescue.org/recovery/doctors

Thank you for the link that shows the finances of charities! But it seems that you have to have a membership to check. I've tried searching some, but I'm not able to find anywhere else that provides the financial records of non-profits...
post #29 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
Therefore vaccines belong to a catagory of treatments referred to as unproven, if one wants to be kind; if one is to be accurate, vaccines are quackery.
So you don't believe that vaccines provide a reduction in the illnesses they target?
post #30 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
No. I explained in my earlier post some of the ways they'd make money. You think the only money they get is from T-shirt sales?
Well, I'd rather spend my money on homeopathic remedies for my kids (wait, I already do) than spend it on vaccines. I had to run out and get some natural honey for my daughter's pink eye. That cost me a whopping $8.92. But, it doesn't expire and I can use it for cuts and scrapes, as well and not worry about adverse side effects, etc.

The vast majority of things that are sold are vitamins/supplements, etc. So, yeah, they'll see their sales go up. But, it would still be nice to see what the results of the study would be.
post #31 of 44
oppps
post #32 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
You can put whatever motives behind it you want, but profit is profit. I believe that many, if not most, in the anti-vax organizations are trying to help children. I believe the same for doctors and scientists. I also believe it's naive to categorize a group of people as good or bad. So it's relevant that anti-vax orgs make money off of their treatments, but that doesn't mean that they're not trying to help children. The exact same thing can be said of pharmaceutical companies.

It's my understanding that those orgs, like Generation Rescue, don't treat exclusively vax damaged people. And many people with autism, or autistic children, don't believe that vaccinations caused the autism, so they wouldn't be interested in treatments that "heal" them of vaccines. And many people don't believe that the treatments they suggest (chelation, DAN diet, etc) will help at all because they trust the science that's said that. However, if that same science was proved to be wrong about vaccines then that would make some more trusting of the people who have been claiming that all along. Along with the treatments that they were previously skeptical of. Alternative medicine is already a $34 billion a year industry, but it could be a lot more if people lose confidence in the scientific community.
Could you provide a link to this? Thanks

U.S. herbal and botanical supplement sales totaled $4.8 billion in 2007 up 4.3 percent over the total for 2006, I know this info is 3 yrs old but it's only 2010. so you are saying this industry grew 14.6% each year in the last 3 years. That would be something. The average growth of both industries seems to be about 4-6% a year based on what I have remembered reading in the past.
Even assuming this is correct $4 billion vs $825 billion
Quote:
IMS Health (NYSE: RX) reported today that the value of the global pharmaceutical market in 2010 is expected to grow 4 - 6 percent on a constant-dollar basis, exceeding $825 billion. Global pharmaceutical market value is expected to expand to $975+ billion by 2013.
http://www.imshealth.com/portal/site...extfmt=default

The alternative medicine field is growing...about this you are correct. It has been gaining momentum for years. This has little to do with vaccines. Many people who fully vaccinate their children choose alternative medicine. This field is growing because people are wising up and turning to alternative methods when allopathic medicine has failed them miserabely and made them sicker than they were when they started. It will continue to grow despite the CDC and the FDA's efforts to destroy it.
post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
Thank you for the link that shows the finances of charities! But it seems that you have to have a membership to check. I've tried searching some, but I'm not able to find anywhere else that provides the financial records of non-profits...
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...058573cc-9.pdf

Try this one.

I was impressed to see that Jenny McCarthy and Jb Handerly actually receive no compensation from Generation Rescue.
post #34 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Could you provide a link to this? Thanks

U.S. herbal and botanical supplement sales totaled $4.8 billion in 2007 up 4.3 percent over the total for 2006, I know this info is 3 yrs old but it's only 2010. so you are saying this industry grew 14.6% each year in the last 3 years. That would be something. The average growth of both industries seems to be about 4-6% a year based on what I have remembered reading in the past.
Even assuming this is correct $4 billion vs $825 billion

http://www.imshealth.com/portal/site...extfmt=default

The alternative medicine field is growing...about this you are correct. It has been gaining momentum for years. This has little to do with vaccines. Many people who fully vaccinate their children choose alternative medicine. This field is growing because people are wising up and turning to alternative methods when allopathic medicine has failed them miserabely and made them sicker than they were when they started. It will continue to grow despite the CDC and the FDA's efforts to destroy it.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellnes...8215703&page=1

I agree, alternative medicine is not just for those who reject vaccines. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of totally mainstream people have used alternative medicines. I'm just saying that if a study of vaxxed vs. unvaxxed showed that vaxed kids were worse off, there'd probably be a lot more people interested in alternative medicine who weren't previously.
post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
so you don't believe that vaccines provide a reduction in the illnesses they target?
Interesting that you only quote a small part of my post....

Because vaccines have NEVER been subjected to the gold standard of proof, the double blind, long term scientific study and trial, therefore, vaccines are unproven and that is the definition of quackery.

Which means that if one believes that vaccines work as a disease preventative without the scientific proof, then that person is engaged in a religious belief, a belief based on faith only. ~Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD, 1978.
post #36 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
Interesting that you only quote a small part of my post....

Because vaccines have NEVER been subjected to the gold standard of proof, the double blind, long term scientific study and trial, therefore, vaccines are unproven and that is the definition of quackery.

Which means that if one believes that vaccines work as a disease preventative without the scientific proof, then that person is engaged in a religious belief, a belief based on faith only. ~Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD, 1978.


Don't you just love, love, love him?
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellnes...8215703&page=1

I agree, alternative medicine is not just for those who reject vaccines. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of totally mainstream people have used alternative medicines. I'm just saying that if a study of vaxxed vs. unvaxxed showed that vaxed kids were worse off, there'd probably be a lot more people interested in alternative medicine who weren't previously.
Perhaps, but only slightly and only as a trickle down effect when people woke up to the fact that the government had lied to them for decades and forced them to harm their children and abandoned what little faith they have had in our public health program. HOWEVER....people still love their docs and their drugs. They would still run off and pop their pills and continue to see their docs demanding antibiotics for every sniffle. What they wouldn't stand for is the government mandating any medical treatment (including vaccines) for their families. People don't like to be told what to do, this doesn't mean that given free will and the chance they won't continue to make the same choices. JMHO
post #38 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
Interesting that you only quote a small part of my post....

Because vaccines have NEVER been subjected to the gold standard of proof, the double blind, long term scientific study and trial, therefore, vaccines are unproven and that is the definition of quackery.

Which means that if one believes that vaccines work as a disease preventative without the scientific proof, then that person is engaged in a religious belief, a belief based on faith only. ~Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD, 1978.
I only quoted a small part of your post because my question was directed toward you, not Dr. Mendelsohn. I was curious as to whether you believe that vaccines provide a reduction in the illnesses they target? I'm pretty sure I know how Dr. Mendelson feels about them. And, of course, if you want to tell me that it's none of my beeswax, I wouldn't be offended.
post #39 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
....people still love their docs and their drugs. They would still run off and pop their pills and continue to see their docs demanding antibiotics for every sniffle. What they wouldn't stand for is the government mandating any medical treatment (including vaccines) for their families. People don't like to be told what to do, this doesn't mean that given free will and the chance they won't continue to make the same choices. JMHO
Haha. I agree, there are a lot of those kinds of people, too!
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
I only quoted a small part of your post because my question was directed toward you, not Dr. Mendelsohn. I was curious as to whether you believe that vaccines provide a reduction in the illnesses they target? I'm pretty sure I know how Dr. Mendelson feels about them. And, of course, if you want to tell me that it's none of my beeswax, I wouldn't be offended.
You don't know anything about the paediatrician, Dr. Mendelsohn or you would not have said that you know how he feels about vaccinations.

He has been dead for 22 years.

I have made my knowledge and experience quite clear about vaccines.

I quoted him because I agree with his statement. He is clear and I could not say it any better than he has.
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