Needing to be "prepared" for Kindergarten?

[BMG580]

After much discussion and stress my husband and I've decided to put our just turned 5 year old into public school this fall. This has been an especially hard decision for me, I really want to homeschool or find an alternative educational approach (we're a Waldorf inspired family) and she's had very little traditional preschool, just two mornings a week for the last 6 months. I think there are a lot of positives in public ed but her strengths are definitely more physical and artistic rather than academic, at least so far, which is why I am concerned to send her to a heavily academic environment. Her preschool teacher said she believes she is ready to head to public school, she is mature for her age, engaged in class activities and follows directions well (her language, not mine). But it seems everyone else in my life is adding to my stress telling me she is "not ready".

Why? Because we made a conscious choice to NOT present letters and numbers and phonics and whatnot unless she asked and she really hasn't asked all that much. Not only is she not an early reader she is still working on lower case letter identification, she can count up to 30 but does not immediately recognize numbers past ten when she sees them written, etc.

If she is really going to be behind her peers and struggling in school I am fine with putting it off for a year, though she is very extroverted and looking forward to going. I just don't want her to feel stressed out and pressured when I frankly don't think she is behind at all, she is just more interested in dressing up like a fairy and doing crafts than sitting down and learning phonics!

Can a child really be behind when starting Kindergarten? I suppose I thought that K is the introduction to school and is the starting point for learning in a more structured way. I could very well be wrong and I don't want to put her into a situation in which she isn't going to flourish due to her lack of exposure to traditional preschool prep work. Advice?

[Owen'nZoe]

I think that is absolutely ridiculous, and you should go forward without any worry!

My son, like your little one, is bright and imaginative, but had no interest in counting or reading before he started kindy. He went to a very academic kindergarten (which I wasn't thrilled about, but it was our only option without moving), and couldn't/wouldn't reliably count to 10 even or say the alphabet before he started. From what you've posted, it sounds like your daughter is well beyond where we were this time last year.

School was no trouble for him at all. Whether he was behind when he started, I have no idea, but he can easily count into the hundreds now, do simple addition and subtraction, and reads like crazy.

So, my advice would be relax and enjoy the rest of the summer. She sounds like a delightful child, and I'm sure she'll do well!

[Geofizz]

*Preschool teachers are pretty conservative in my experience about declaring a kid ready. If the teacher says she's ready, based on the reasoning she gave, she's probably fine.
*Evaluating whether a kid is truly ready to learn is really hard, so people often resort to indicators of past success learning in an academic environment. Knowing your letters isn't nearly as important as curious, able to follow instructions from someone besides mommy, being able to express your problems, and have a positive attitude towards school, and able to stay on task for 3 minutes.

[whatsnextmom]

I'm a preschool teacher in our school district (a high performing district) and I can tell you that our "graduates" vary dramatically. Some kids know all their upper and lower case letters and their sounds cold. Some are starting to recognise high frequancy words. Some can add and subtract small numbers and count very high. Others leave with the very basics... colors, shapes, can recognise their name, know some letters and can count to 20. Outside a couple who had behavioral issues, they've all done well.

The thing with kindie skills is that developementally ready children will absorb them rapidly. This means that a child entering seemingly behind due to lack of interest or exposure can jump to the top of the class within days or weeks. Most kindies start easy on purpose. They want to build the kids confidence and get them used the routine by focusing on material most know. This also give children who have had less exposure a chance to get the material before them move on.

Remember that you always have options. We know several parents who went in with the idea of 2 years of kindergarten. They had the idea to send their child to a different school for 1st year kindie. If their child did great, they just move them into 1st grade at their desired school. If they seem behind, they have them repeat kindie in the school of choice. Only 1 of those families actually felt their child needed to repeat and that was because English wasn't the child's 1st language and they felt the extra year of vocabulary building would benefit her in the long run.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

she's had very little traditional preschool, just two mornings a week for the last 6 months. ... Her preschool teacher said she believes she is ready to head to public school, she is mature for her age, engaged in class activities and follows directions well (her language, not mine).

I think she and the teacher have had plenty of time to get to know each other and I'd trust her assessment.

But it seems everyone else in my life is adding to my stress telling me she is "not ready".

Who are these people and can you tell them just to shut up?

My kids homeschooled when they were young and started school at 10 and 12. They knew *different* things that their always-schooled peers, but, like your DD, were mature, engaged, and followed directions. They did well and their teachers LOVED them, even though there were a few skills here and there that they were learning while the other kids were reviewing.

However, random comments from neighbors, wives of DH's coworkers, etc. drove me NUTS!!!!!

If she is really going to be behind her peers and struggling in school I am fine with putting it off for a year, though she is very extroverted and looking forward to going.

I bet she catches on VERY quickly and really blossoms.

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

The thing with kindie skills is that developementally ready children will absorb them rapidly. This means that a child entering seemingly behind due to lack of interest or exposure can jump to the top of the class within days or weeks. Most kindies start easy on purpose. They want to build the kids confidence and get them used the routine by focusing on material most know. This also give children who have had less exposure a chance to get the material before them move on.

[blizzard_babe]

As a teacher of little ones (K-3, most recently), I can say that kids come in all over the place in kindergarten. And... some of those who come in knowing all their letters, numbers and whatnot aren't necessary "ahead" of those who don't. Toddlers and preschoolers, by their very nature, spend pretty much every waking hour learning something. So your daughter learned some stuff that they didn't. And, honestly, until kids are ready to TRULY begin reading (I can't put an age on it because in my experience it varies so much), identifying letters is... well... something of a parlor trick. I'm exaggerating there, yes, but while a few kids come into kinder TRULY reading, most can name letters (which I'm betting your DD catches onto fairly quickly once she sets her mind to it), and recognize a few important words like their name (again, probably nothing your daughter can't do), and some come in with little exposure.

Now, if a kid is exposed to letters and turns out to have difficulty learning them, that's a different story. If you open up a book and ask her to tell you where the words are (as opposed to the illustrations) and she is incapable of pointing to the print, that's a different story.

Numbers are a little different. Not immediately recognizing the written form of the numbers isn't necessarily an issue. Like the letters, they can be learned fairly easily barring some kind of learning problem. Math CONCEPTS are, in my experience and opinion, more indicative of where a kid's actually AT. Can she count objects? Does she understand that two is less than five? If you give her a tiny glass of juice and drink a huge one yourself, does she get miffed? In math, at that age, conceptual understanding is key. How to write them down on paper comes FROM that understanding. I've had students who can count to who knows how high (onetwothreefourfivesixseveneightnineten... etc etc etc), and can sort of rote copy-from-memory some numbers, but when asked to count a group of objects, don't assign them a one-to-one correspondence - one number to one object, stopping when out of objects. In the same class, I had a student who came in without the "textbook" knowledge (couldn't really count above ten), but could accurately count a group of objects, without fail, every time. He thought it was an insultingly easy task . Guess which student ended up finding math to be easier, once he learned the names of those pesky "teen" numbers?

Kindergarten is a pretty good equalizer. Kids come in with SUCH different experiences, but no matter what... they're five years old. They like to listen to stories, fingerpaint, and swing. Some are better at listening to stories because their nine year-old brother decided to read Harry Potter to them. Some come from a family full of architects and can build Lego masterpieces that make the fifth graders jealous. Some can read at a third grade level or higher. But they're ALL FIVE YEARS OLD, and they all have a lot to learn. Your daughter's experiences aren't that outside the norm because... in a lot of ways, there IS no norm.

Kids, even those coming out of full-time childcare, come to kindergarten with all the quirks of their families, fairly undiluted by the outside world. Kid #1 can't poop with his shoes on, but can't yet tie his shoes so pooping can be a bit of a process. #2 still needs a two hour nap in the afternoon, and takes it whether anyone else in the class is sleeping or not. #3 has never held a pencil, but can remember every detail of a story he was told because his grandparents come from a non-literate oral culture and have been telling him long, detailed stories since he was an infant. #4 barely speaks in a voice above a whisper, but confidently churns out advanced-level work. They're all normal because they're all abnormal. By the end of the year, things are starting to even out a bit. #4 speaks up a little more, #3 can hold a pencil, #2 only falls asleep after lunch on occasion, and #1 MIGHT still poop with his shoes off, but since he's learned to tie his shoes no one needs to know or care.

Annnnnd... I've written a novel. I really like kindergarten classes.

[Tigerle]

But it seems everyone else in my life is adding to my stress telling me she is "not ready".

Who are these people and can you tell them just to shut up?

Why? Because we made a conscious choice to NOT present letters and numbers and phonics and whatnot unless she asked and she really hasn't asked all that much. Not only is she not an early reader she is still working on lower case letter identification, she can count up to 30 but does not immediately recognize numbers past ten when she sees them written, etc.

It sounds like people aren't really talking about your DD but critiqueing your waldorf-inspired choices. You've made the decision to not expose her to academics so far and she was fine, and she'll be exposed to them now and she'll be just fine too.

*Preschool teachers are pretty conservative in my experience about declaring a kid ready. If the teacher says she's ready, based on the reasoning she gave, she's probably fine.

I wouldn't worry about anyone else's opinion.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe

Now, if a kid is exposed to letters and turns out to have difficulty learning them, that's a different story. If you open up a book and ask her to tell you where the words are (as opposed to the illustrations) and she is incapable of pointing to the print, that's a different story.

Math CONCEPTS are, in my experience and opinion, more indicative of where a kid's actually AT. Can she count objects? Does she understand that two is less than five? If you give her a tiny glass of juice and drink a huge one yourself, does she get miffed? In math, at that age, conceptual understanding is key.

Yes, she easily knows what written text is, she just doesn't really care to learn how to read it herself yet. She just turned five a couple weeks ago, and we read three books together at rest time and at bedtime, so at least 6 books daily. She is being exposed, she just likes listening I guess. We've been reading longer, more complex books as well as playing audio versions for her during her rest time (Wizard of Oz, James and the Giant Peach, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Charlotte's Web, etc). She has been making lots and lots of homemade books by illustrating and arranging the pages into proper sequence and then telling us the story, so I think she is on the cusp of wanting to learn to read for herself, we'll see.

As for math, she counts very well, definitely understands one to one correspondence, she just doesn't know the written symbols or understand counting by 10s, etc. Her spatial skills are off the charts (in my opinion ) and she can build fairly complex Lego models just by following a photo on the box, she loves to build with Lincoln Logs, make different arrangements with her marble run, etc. If it is applied mathematical concepts I think she is on par for her age or maybe even ahead.

I actually repeated K because I also was a young five starting out and it wasn't a big deal. We'll give it a go and see how she does. She has an amazing memory and is very interested in gardening and fishing, she is an excellent swimmer and loves dress up and doing crafts. In fact she is able to remember lots of plants by site and can tell you the correct growing conditions (I'm an avid gardener so she's been outside with me and starting plants from seed since she was teeny tiny) for many, many plants. She has recently taken an interest in birds and can now identify more types than me! My point I'm trying to make here is that I am not worried about her intelligence, I think she is advanced in many areas I was just curious about the core academic subjects because she seems rather disinterested in those.

With all this said, she did feel stressed in her preschool class because she did feel "behind" her peer group in the material that was being taught. She can be competitive yet can also be a little lazy if she isn't interested (which I think is true for most of us!).

[blizzard_babe]

Honestly, she sounds perfectly "kindergarten-ready" to me, letters or no letters. She might start out a titch "behind" on that stuff, in that so many kids come in having been actively taught that stuff (I had a friend concerned because his 2 y/o wasn't recognizing letters head). Unless the teacher is a total fuddy-duddy, you should be easily able to explain that your focus with her has been highly educational, just not necessarily written. She's not coming in from an "intellectually deprived" environment .

[oopsmama1]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe

As a teacher of little ones (K-3, most recently), I can say that kids come in all over the place in kindergarten. And... some of those who come in knowing all their letters, numbers and whatnot aren't necessary "ahead" of those who don't. Toddlers and preschoolers, by their very nature, spend pretty much every waking hour learning something. So your daughter learned some stuff that they didn't. And, honestly, until kids are ready to TRULY begin reading (I can't put an age on it because in my experience it varies so much), identifying letters is... well... something of a parlor trick. I'm exaggerating there, yes, but while a few kids come into kinder TRULY reading, most can name letters (which I'm betting your DD catches onto fairly quickly once she sets her mind to it), and recognize a few important words like their name (again, probably nothing your daughter can't do), and some come in with little exposure.

Now, if a kid is exposed to letters and turns out to have difficulty learning them, that's a different story. If you open up a book and ask her to tell you where the words are (as opposed to the illustrations) and she is incapable of pointing to the print, that's a different story.

Numbers are a little different. Not immediately recognizing the written form of the numbers isn't necessarily an issue. Like the letters, they can be learned fairly easily barring some kind of learning problem. Math CONCEPTS are, in my experience and opinion, more indicative of where a kid's actually AT. Can she count objects? Does she understand that two is less than five? If you give her a tiny glass of juice and drink a huge one yourself, does she get miffed? In math, at that age, conceptual understanding is key. How to write them down on paper comes FROM that understanding. I've had students who can count to who knows how high (onetwothreefourfivesixseveneightnineten... etc etc etc), and can sort of rote copy-from-memory some numbers, but when asked to count a group of objects, don't assign them a one-to-one correspondence - one number to one object, stopping when out of objects. In the same class, I had a student who came in without the "textbook" knowledge (couldn't really count above ten), but could accurately count a group of objects, without fail, every time. He thought it was an insultingly easy task . Guess which student ended up finding math to be easier, once he learned the names of those pesky "teen" numbers?

Kindergarten is a pretty good equalizer. Kids come in with SUCH different experiences, but no matter what... they're five years old. They like to listen to stories, fingerpaint, and swing. Some are better at listening to stories because their nine year-old brother decided to read Harry Potter to them. Some come from a family full of architects and can build Lego masterpieces that make the fifth graders jealous. Some can read at a third grade level or higher. But they're ALL FIVE YEARS OLD, and they all have a lot to learn. Your daughter's experiences aren't that outside the norm because... in a lot of ways, there IS no norm.

Kids, even those coming out of full-time childcare, come to kindergarten with all the quirks of their families, fairly undiluted by the outside world. Kid #1 can't poop with his shoes on, but can't yet tie his shoes so pooping can be a bit of a process. #2 still needs a two hour nap in the afternoon, and takes it whether anyone else in the class is sleeping or not. #3 has never held a pencil, but can remember every detail of a story he was told because his grandparents come from a non-literate oral culture and have been telling him long, detailed stories since he was an infant. #4 barely speaks in a voice above a whisper, but confidently churns out advanced-level work. They're all normal because they're all abnormal. By the end of the year, things are starting to even out a bit. #4 speaks up a little more, #3 can hold a pencil, #2 only falls asleep after lunch on occasion, and #1 MIGHT still poop with his shoes off, but since he's learned to tie his shoes no one needs to know or care.

Annnnnd... I've written a novel. I really like kindergarten classes.

Thanks for typing my post for me,lol. I totally agree. I am a preschool director and I always encourage parents to listen to teachers and trust their instincts. I have 3 children and they are so different. We are lucky that our school is based on alternative education ( no desks, no grades etc.) and they have prospered.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe

Honestly, she sounds perfectly "kindergarten-ready" to me, letters or no letters.

Thanks. I think we live in a fairly competitive parenting area, our parenting choices for the early years are just unheard of. Mostly well-meaning friends have mentioned it and yes, I do think they are trying to point out the error of my Waldorf-inspired philosophy for young kids. I do think some parents truly believe that if they start early enough then they will give their child an academic edge or even more ridiculous, ensure that their child is labeled "gifted" (which apparently matters a whole lot in our social circle ).

I have had one long time elementary public school teacher in my family chide us for not having DD is preschool, telling us she would be significantly behind and that it was unfair for the other children who came to school prepared to have to wait and recover material that the non-preschool kids would have to learn. After all our stress over public/private/homeschool options and finally settling on trying public K that was really not so great to hear.

Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback. I guess there is nothing much to do at this point but to take a wait and see approach and reassess and make alternate decisions if it comes to that.

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

Thanks. I think we live in a fairly competitive parenting area, our parenting choices for the early years are just unheard of. Mostly well-meaning friends have mentioned it and yes, I do think they are trying to point out the error of my Waldorf-inspired philosophy for young kids. I do think some parents truly believe that if they start early enough then they will give their child an academic edge or even more ridiculous, ensure that their child is labeled "gifted" (which apparently matters a whole lot in our social circle ).

I have had one long time elementary public school teacher in my family chide us for not having DD is preschool, telling us she would be significantly behind and that it was unfair for the other children who came to school prepared to have to wait and recover material that the non-preschool kids would have to learn. After all our stress over public/private/homeschool options and finally settling on trying public K that was really not so great to hear.

Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback. I guess there is nothing much to do at this point but to take a wait and see approach and reassess and make alternate decisions if it comes to that.

Just keep in mind that while I'm a teacher, and I think I'm a fairly good one, I may or may not be typical.

[whatsnextmom]

I do think some parents truly believe that if they start early enough then they will give their child an academic edge or even more ridiculous, ensure that their child is labeled "gifted" (which apparently matters a whole lot in our social circle.)

If it's any consolation, both of mine officially have the gifted label and weren't particularly academic in the early years. They picked things up just from their environment but weren't particularly interested in "working" on things or reciting the alphabet a million times to prove to others I was a good mother lol. My eldest didn't read or have any interest in math until after turning 5. Once the interest was there, she gained several grade levels in a matter of weeks. My youngest started picking out words in print at 2 but wasn't what *I'd* consider fluent until after his 7th birthday. He was very math minded but never once pulled out a workbook prior to kindergarten. Instead, both were very imaginative, creative, playful and spent years in costumes (I swear, there was a 4 year period where that Superman cape was worn every freakin' day!) They amassed unusual information. I swear, my DS could blabber on about Mayan ruins before he could correctly identify "purple."

The one thing I've really learned over the years is to just take things one year at a time. Nothing done can't be undone. Children are remarkably resiliant when they know they their parents are listening to them. Every year may mean something different in reguards to educational needs. Your DD sounds like a bright kid and I don't doubt she'll do fine in kindie.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

I swear, my DS could blabber on about Mayan ruins before he could correctly identify "purple."

This made me laugh. Tonight at bedtime she had some questions about the moon, which led to discussion of gravity (we've discussed it before) and then questions about why airplanes fly and balloons float if gravity pulls things down to the ground. Her brain is definitely whirling along with topics that are of interest to her!

[Emmeline II]

Have you asked her school what they expect?

Though our school wanted them to be able to count to 20, identify upper and lower case letters, and be able to write their names, not every one could do those things starting out.

LeapFrog is a good DVD series to help with these things. The do have a video about going to school for the first time that covers a lot of ground (LeapFrog: Let's Go to School).

I would also check if there are any public charter schools in your area. We ended up switching ds to a charter school for next year that is geared more to his interest in science and technology, but I know our area has an arts based charter school as well.

[Tjej]

Yeah, if you want to give her a quick primer on letters, the Leapfrog letter factory DVD is a cute one. It's about 30 minutes and I'd venture to guess that seeing it a couple of times she'd know the upper and lower case letters and their sounds.

I think you should talk to the school she will be going to and see what they expect for K readiness. If there are any gaps then you can show a few things to your DD between now and the start. I know one thing they say around here kids should do is eat an apple or orange whole on their own. So they can handle their own snacks (I can see how it would be hard for a teacher if everyone needed help peeling or cutting).

But really, it sounds to ME like your DD is ready for K as well and will do brilliantly!

Tjej

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

Thanks. I think we live in a fairly competitive parenting area, our parenting choices for the early years are just unheard of. Mostly well-meaning friends have mentioned it and yes, I do think they are trying to point out the error of my Waldorf-inspired philosophy for young kids. I do think some parents truly believe that if they start early enough then they will give their child an academic edge or even more ridiculous, ensure that their child is labeled "gifted" (which apparently matters a whole lot in our social circle ).

We live in a similar area. "Competitive parenting" just about describes it. We have a 1/3 rate of parents holding kids out an extra year to give their kids that extra edge, and there is certainly the expectation that your kid is reading before kindergarten. Most of these kids go to an exclusive "preK" program where the focus is on reading and kindergarten skills. This is after these kids have been in preschool for two years. Only about 10% of kids within 4 months of the cutoff go on time. I've actually had other parent and the school principal scold me for not holding DD back. "I held my kid back a year and now he's a National Merit Scholar!"

We started DD on time (beating the cut off by a few weeks), despite the fact that she was not reading, not adding, not writing. Marginal preschool experience. She was ready for kindergarten, though. She knew what the letters looked like, recognized the numbers, etc.

DD's class has a >18 month spread in age range as a result, with her at the very young end. By the end of kindy, you couldn't tell which kids had the extra year of the uber-awesome preschool and who started on time without much preschool based on academic performance or even fine motor coordination. The only way you could tell was by which kids had lost their front baby teeth.

Gifted screening comes in our state in second grade, well after the equilization of the first two years of school. IQ tests are normed by age, not by grade, so by the time my kid hit 7, she'd had an extra year of school relative to the other kids in her class. I know of no kids held out a year before kindergarten in the gifted program, so effectively, a lot of parents likely harmed their kid's chances of getting into the program, not helped. Actually, come to think of it, none of the kids in the gifted program with DD went to the super fancy preschool. I know of at least two others (out of 8 total) that didn't go to preschool at all.

I am so glad I didn't hold DD back. I'm so glad DD has spent so much of her life playing in the mud. Ultimately, I know it's payed off.

[whatsnextmom]

Gifted screening comes in our state in second grade, well after the equilization of the first two years of school. IQ tests are normed by age, not by grade,

Yes, this is true in our area too. GATE testing is based on age. A lot of parents who hold their back to give them an "edge" over the competition fly off the handle when their kids don't make it into the gifted program.

I get really frustrated with the red-shirting practices around here. People complain that kindie is the new "1st grade" but what they don't recognize is that the average AGE of kindergartens has bumped up too. DS started on schedule as an older 4. There were TWO kids in his kindie class that turned SEVEN the same school year he turned 5. Who ever heard of a 7-year-old kindergartener? Then, a couple years later, these parents start proudly complaining that school isn't challenging enough. They just seem to completely forget that their child is a year older not neccessarily more brilliant than the rest of the class.

Sorry, that was an OT vent. There are certainly cases where holding a child back a year for growth and maturity is the answer but those legitimate cases are small in number compared to the amount of people who do it in hopes to make their child an academic and atheletic star.