Sire tried to eat his puppy???

[amber913]

We're looking for a dog--checking breeders and shelters. Anyway, talked to a breeder who said she gave away her 1-yo sire b/c he tried to eat one of the puppies. These are Rotties--strong, powerful dogs--so we're not inclined to take chances; we don't want a Rottie with a few screws loose. But before i judge this dog, i wanted to know: how common is this? Anybody know?

We're certainly not married to this breeder (and if i get my way, we'll adopt anyway), but it had me wondering.

[blizzard_babe]

I would NOT be comfortable getting a puppy from that breeder or sire, regardless of breed... but especially a big, strong, protective breed like a Rottie. My in-laws had a poorly bred Rottie, and he made their life VERY difficult... that's a lot of big, strong dog to be unsure of its temperament.

[SophieAnn]

Run run run away from this breeder.

Not because of the behaviour of the sire... but simply because this breeder is using a 1-year old sire.

Rotweillers, like many large breed dogs are prone to hip dysplasia. Among other health screening tests, both sire and dam should have their hips certified to be free of hip dysplasia prior to breeding. Hips cannot be certified until the dog reaches at minimum of 2 years (or some organizations will certify at 18 months).

Edited to add: Here's a link about choosing a reputable rotweiller breeder, including the recommended health screening. The information seems to be sound. I was looking for information on the American Rotweiller Club website - usually they have breeder listings on club website of breeders who have signed a code of ethics, but I couldn't find it.
http://www.a-love-of-rottweilers.com...r-breeder.html

Here's the link to the Rotweiller Club of Canada site. There is some helpful information on how to choose a breeder.
http://www.rottclub.ca/so_you_want.htm

Edited again to add: Hip certifications done by OFA are at minimum age 2 years. You can search for any potential sires or dams on their website.
http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by SophieAnn

Not because of the behaviour of the sire... but simply because this breeder is using a 1-year old sire.

Holy cow, I somehow skimmed over that in the OP. Yeah, I'd step away from this breeder with a quickness.

[Oubliette8]

I completely agree, 1 year old is far too young for any dog to breed, and certainly too young for the necessary health clearances.

I'd find a new breeder asap.

[SquishyKitty]

Any breeder that 1) Uses a one year old sire and 2) Rehomes the sire when he displays normal dominant dog behavior (this is why sires are often kept away from pups when they are young) is not worth soliciting. The dog hasn't even fully grown into his body to know if he'll have hip problems or any other issues. If they are breeding him at 1 year, chances are likely that they have a lot of other things that haven't been done, like training or socializing, and the dog probably has some serious aggression issues. I would run, and run fast.

No dogs besides the dam should be interacting with pups until they have started weaning, and then it should be very closely supervised. Anything less is just inviting trouble.

I'd look into a rottie rescue before talking to a breeder.

[amber913]

Thank you for your responses.

I've been researching breeders and rescues since my Rottie passed away in June. Never did i see anything about OFA, though a friend of mine had told me about it. My point is that it looks like people around here don't do that--at least not the people who breed "family dogs" rather than show dogs. And i can tell you right now i'm not paying for a show dog! I do know of a woman who has three generations of females and a male (male is unrelated to females) who we like, but the price--whew! It's hard for me to shell out that kind of cash (ok, it's $975) when i could get a great puppy through a rescue or shelter for SOOOO much less.

Also there's one "local" Rottie rescue (it's an hour or so away), and they currently have two dogs, fully grown. We'll be getting a puppy--whether we adopt a mutt or get a purebred. I'll keep checking with them, but it seems like they don't, um, rescue a lot.

Thank you for pointing out some things i hadn't realized--that the sire was too young and should've been kept from the puppies. We were actually the most turned off by the fact that all four grand-parents of the puppies were guard dogs. We want a black and tan teddy bear, just like we had with our first.

[SophieAnn]

Paying $975 (which is cheap for a responsibly bred dog) is just a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands and thousands of dollars in vet bills you would be stuck with if you bought a puppy who ended up having a genetic disease (such as hip displaysia) which is avoidable by health screening sire and dam.

All breeding dogs should be health screened, for the health of their pups - even "family dogs". Ever seen a 2 year old dog with hips so bad they can barely walk? No dog deserves that.

[mom0810]

Actually it's pretty common to use sires that young when showing dogs. A lot of times they are already finished, have preliminary health clearances, and it's just fine. A lot of times breeders will use a young dog like that so he is "proven" before letting him out for public stud.

Is it young? Yes. Does it mean this is a bad breeder? No.

BUT... why was the sire in and around puppies in the first place? How old was the puppy he ate? THAT would be horrifying and I have no idea under what circumstance that happened but she should not be placing this dog in a pet home, or any home. Period.

As far as breeding age, it's more with bitches that we wait until they are 2 years old or on their 2nd or 3rd heat, depending on how often they come in. Sometimes there are bitches that are only in season once a year, and in that case, I have bred them a tiny bit before their second birthday IF they had health clearances (prelims from OFA and Cerf's).

[mom0810]

Oh and $975 for a puppy is nothing. Nothing. A good Rottie puppy should be at least $1200 and probably more like $1500-$1800. Good luck! The breeder does not have to be close to you, most good and experienced breeders will ship. It's not a problem and puppies don't mind it a bit.

[SophieAnn]

I'd have to disagree with you mom0810 - but we can agree to disagree.

At 1 year, a dog isn't even fully grown (especially a large breed male). He might have his championship already, but as he finishes growing he may turn out to be a dog that doesn't conform well to breed standard. As a result, it may be a dog that the breeder doesn't want to include in their breeding program. Or, it just might not be complimentary to the dam. Example, a dam whose only fault is that she's slightly too long (for a dog that should be square)... breed it with a 1-year old who looks great but oops he turns out to be long too when he's done growing.... result - LONG puppies.

I don't know how common it is to use sires that young - never heard of it in the show world (and we co-own a show dog with our breeder).

I'd also have to disagree on prelims being good enough. Ethical breeding guidelines set by breed clubs also disagree with it.

[greenmagick]

Most things have already been covered but wanted to point out and clarify one point...no one should be breeding family dogs. Pet quality family dogs come from show dogs (or other titles in working, obedience, etc). In a litter some are qualified to go on to show homes but many are pet quality and become family pets. If you are not willing to shell out the money for a properly bred dog you need to go to a rescue.

Read up on backyard breeders....do NOT support one.

[mom0810]

It's okay SophieAnn, we can agree to disagree.

Most people new to showing would not think this is normal, but it is quite common and experienced breeders, who know what they have and are familiar with their own pedigrees, would not hesitate a bit to use a dog this young. He's not going to change in conformation (angles, head shape, etc.) very much after a year... not much after 8 weeks, actually... most of us look at what we have at 8 weeks and then remember not to look at it again until it's finished growing because they usually return to what they were as puppies.

But of course all breeders have different ways of doing things. I can tell you that many dogs are being specialed already by a year, and are bred to often at that age. No biggie.

Oh and most breed clubs' code of ethics do not specify anything specific about prelims vs. ofa permanent numbers... it's not a big deal either way. And I'm the president of a national breed club and have been a member of many others... it's not a big deal.

[SophieAnn]

mom0810, thanks for your reply! I appreciate your perspective.

I am still learning myself as I am fairly new to the show world (about 4 years) and my breeder experience is mostly limited to our chosen breeder and their breeder friends.

We have a 22-month old male (co-owned with his breeder). He finished his Can. Championship by 9 months of age, had his prelims done around 14 months (great) and has yet to have his hips certified. He has never been bred, and won't be without having his hips certified... even then he might wait awhile longer for a good pairing. The breeder is also planning on showing him to his American Championship, but that wouldn't be a breeding requirement for them. So that's my perspective.

It's been lots of fun so far though. Winning a BPIS was awesome!! but I digress....

Excellent point greenmagick, and I totally agree!

[mom0810]

That's so fun, congratulations on your new show boy! In your case, as a novice puppy owner and new to the show world, I can see your breeder wanting to wait until your dog is 2 before even thinking about breeding. I would never allow someone new to showing to have one of my puppies and then breed it before it was ready. But I myself might breed your puppy's brother, if as his breeder I kept him and he was finished and passed all his prelim's. So you see there is kind of a different set of rules depending on how long you have been doing this.

BPIS is very fun! I just recently finished my little girl by beating the #1 dog in the country for the breed, and going on to a group 2!!!! She finished that day, at 7 months. That was very very fun.

[SophieAnn]

Oh dear no I think you got the wrong idea.

I am not showing my dog. The breeder is showing my dog (in the bred by exhibitor class), and has all breeding rights. I just come along to the shows and watch (and help out where I can).

I make no decisions regarding showing or breeding of my dog. These standards of breeding apply to all their breeding stock, whether the dog lives with the breeder, or live with a family (all have hips certified before breeding).

If/when they want to breed my dog, they will call me up and I will bring him over to them, or they will come to our house and get him. Our dog's breeder lives fairly close by and we visit regularly. This is our 2nd dog from the same breeder - our first was not a show dog.

CONGRATS on your big win! That's fantastic!

[mom0810]

Oh, well still it's your show dog! I think that's wonderful that you are allowing your breeder to do that. There are not many families that are that open to such an arrangement. What breed do you have?

[greenmagick]

Not sure what breeds everyone has here, but I do think that makes a difference in how early responsible breeders breed. In the breeders I have talked to about danes, mastiffs, etc I have really never heard people being ok with prelims only and there have been many comments about dogs finishing their championships so early only to change as they age. But these are very slowly maturing dogs, so maybe thats a big difference. I am sure some really experienced breeders do sometimes use younger studs and on prelims only, but it is not from what I can tell a widely accepted practice. I wouldnt personally be comfortable with that unless the breeder had CHICs on both sides for several generations.

[SophieAnn]

Originally Posted by mom0810

Oh, well still it's your show dog! I think that's wonderful that you are allowing your breeder to do that. There are not many families that are that open to such an arrangement. What breed do you have?

We'd already known our breeder for awhile before they asked if we would be willing to be a show home, and we discussed all the pros/cons together before agreeing.

It's a great arrangement for us, though I am really looking forward to the day when we can give him a serious hair cut - this coat is a lot of work! He lives with us and we get to love him, plus we get to go watch him in the show ring sometimes! I wouldn't want this arrangement with a breeding female, personally, because I would really miss my dog for those 9+ weeks at the breeder's house. As it is, I only lose my dog for a weekend at most.

Agree with you greenmagick. My experience is with large breed dogs and I've found they do change as they mature. Bite and coat are two things that are in our breed standard, and coat change significantly as the dog matures... and I've seen bite changes too, as the dog grows.

[mom0810]

It's true that a dog that finishes at 9 months or even a year will look different at that time than it will at 3 years, but the fact is that at 3 years, it should come back to looking very much like it did at 8 weeks. That's why I say we look at puppies for their final evaluation at 8 weeks, and then DON'T look again until they are fully mature. But just because they may not be in the full glory of an adult show dog at 1 does not mean that they are not breed-able at a young age. Usually, again, a breeder is only doing this for their OWN use, knowing completely what the dog is and where it came from, and it's done as a preliminary type thing because that dog may be starting a specials career soon and would be away from home, etc. And sometimes it's nice to have puppies out of your new special already being shown because people can see what he produces and by then he's proven, has his adult health clearances, etc.

It's something that is done often in larger breeds, actually... since they don't live as long and their specials career may not be that long. I think it's something that only really experienced breeders do and often something that a less experienced breeder might not feel comfortable doing, but still, it's really really common.

Edited because I have posted really personal things on other area of MDC and would not like them to be public information... I have mentioned this reasoning before in not wanting to say which breed I have because of dog show politics, etc.