Help! Father/son conflict! Sad Mommy!

[sachasmom]

I am at a complete loss at the moment and really just want some advice from others who've been in my place. Or if not that, some sympathy so I can feel less alone.

My husband and I have raised our 3 year old son in an attachment-based way from birth. He still sleeps with us, has just self-weaned to two or three short comfort feedings a day, but only because I am four months pregnant and my milk has mostly gone away. My husband has been very supportive all along, though it's not how he (or I) was raised. However, we have suddenly hit a real impasse with discipline.

Maybe it's the new baby, or maybe it's the terrible threes rearing their ugly head, but my husband has pretty much switched into a mindset that now is the time to get our son under control and impose discipline -- and suddenly gentle parenting is out the window and he's locked in a battle for control with our son.

I don't know where this is coming from, except possibly unresolved issues with his own very controlling, angry, verbally abusive father? It's certainly not coming from our son: he has his normal share of three year old moments, and he is a physically active kid with definite opinions and a lot of personality. But teachers, babysitters, relatives, EVERYONE agrees that he's a delightful, kind, well-adjusted, generally adaptable and easy-to-work-with kid. He's active, confident, happy, articulate -- and generally a poster child for the benefits of attachment parenting. He's also in an excellent Montessori preschool -- and the teachers there all go on and on about how wonderful and kind and thoughtful he is and what a joy he is to have in the classroom. The only negative thing any teacher has ever said is that he sometimes has trouble "listening" -- and even then when I asked if it was a problem they hurried to say that it was absolutely normal behavior for his age and nothing to worry about.

So, no, this is not soft-hearted mom refusing to see a problem with her perfect son. He really is a well-adjusted kid that experienced childcare professionals consider easier than average.

Yet despite all this objective evidence from professionals who know what normal three year olds are like, suddenly our son has become a 'problem child' to his once loving father. Things that I see as normal three year old shenanigans, he takes as spoiled brat behavior or challenges to his authority. He's even started physically disciplining our son, which has led to fights between me and my husband that almost seem to upset our son worse than the actual discipline. I've tried and tried to talk to him about this, but he just calls me crazy and says it's "normal" and I'm crazy for objecting. I feel like I'm turning into a hovering helicopter mom because I can't leave the room without coming back to find them locked in a fight that always ends with my son getting blamed and me getting yelled at for not supporting my husband if I try to intervene to calm things down.

I just don't know where this has come from! He is basically a fantastic loving dad -- but this crazy discipline is starting to damage his relationship with his child, even though he can't seem to see it.

Meanwhile -- at least as I see things -- our son's behavior and moods are starting to deteriorate in reality as my husband's constant shaming and criticism becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Which of course only convinces my husband that he was right all along and needs to get tougher.

I am so bewildered and discouraged! How can I convince my husband that our son is only acting like a normal three year old -- and a relatively well-behaved and well-adjusted one at that? How can I make him see that we have this great kid BECAUSE of all the work we've done so far -- and that it's not time to change course and suddenly throw out everything I thought we both believed about attachment parenting.

I can't figure this out. It's as if secretly he thought AP was okay for infants -- but now it's time to teach his son to be a man or something. Or maybe he's panicking at the idea of dealing with two kids and feels the need to "fix" everything with our older son right now before the baby is born. I don't know. I just know that I need to somehow defuse this situation before it gets worse.

PLEASE, PLEASE, has anyone been in this situation of dealing with father-son conflict or having to convince a spouse to back off and be gentler? Is there a book I can give him on gentle discipline? That might work better than having criticism come from me at this point, since we've already fought so much about this that he doesn't want to hear anything I have to say on the subject. I am really at my wit's end and don't know where to turn.

[mom2grrls]

Can you find a site online that lists normal behaviors for 3 y/o that you can show to him? Will he read any books or websites about GD?

[healthy momma]

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions at the moment but wanted to send you a hug. I would be as completely distressed as you are if that were to happen to me. Hang in there. Hopefully someone will have some really helpful suggestions for you.

[ssh]

I like Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland as a book that shows how our parenting influences our childs development. It has several sections on how nurturing or harsh parenting effects our childs behavior and also their eventual adult self. There's one section on how we talk to our child either engages one part of their brain or another part and directly causes anger and resistance or co-operation. I think it would be a very useful book for your DH. It's also based on 30 years of neurological research and the author is a mental health professional (Director of Education and Training for the Centre for Child Mental Health in London, child psychotherapist with 20 years’ experience of working with children and families).

Age 3 has some annoying behaviors that could be getting on your DHs nerves. It could also be that he doesn't know what behavior is normal for that age. The problem is ages 4, 5 and 6 also have some normal annoying behaviors, especially if you DS is high energy or has an exuberant temperament. Harsh and punitive discipline actually increase misbehaviors and cause problems that wouldn't occur with a gentler discipline style.

That being said, I wouldn't tolerate my DH being anything less than respectful with our DD. We actually had a conversation about it when my DH was having a lot of job stress and was being snappy. After the discussion he started venting more when talking with me instead of being short with our DD. If your DH is feeling stressed or has concerns about your DS maybe he needs to discuss it privately with you instead of being harsh with your DS.

[Quinalla]

For a book that does a good job of explaining why using power to control a child doesn't work in the long run and also why being a permissive parent doesn't either and a true alternative to both, I really like Parenting Effectiveness Training. And it is geared more towards verbal kids, though helps with younger ones too, which is where I think it gets harder and harder to know how to apply AP. And I don't know a title offhand, though I am sure someone will be here with one soon, but a book on child development and normal behavior or even talking to a good pediatrician about what is normal would probably help a lot.

And trying to get DH to explain why he is changing course might help. What is his goal? Maybe if you can find out his goal, you can suggest either (a) why that goal isn't age appropriate or (b) a GD way to reach that goal. What in particular is bothering DH about his son's behavior? That sort of thing. Maybe you can discover the trigger that way and that might help you to sort it out with him.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by sachasmom

...but my husband has pretty much switched into a mindset that now is the time to get our son under control and impose discipline -- and suddenly gentle parenting is out the window and he's locked in a battle for control with our son.

I am sorry.

One thing that stood out to me was this, which I quoted above. Attachment / gentle parenting does not (for most people) mean discipline-free parenting. Discipline is teaching, and most of us who do use AP and gentle techniques DO discipline.

If you have taken a discipline-free approach to your child-rearing so far, it may be something that your husband completely disagrees with (which has now backfired), and so instead of disciplining gently or using natural consequences or what have you, he is doing things the only way he knows how to (modeling himself after his own father).

Rather than telling him you don't want ANY kind of discipline (if you've ever said that), you need to give him more tools in his "discipline toolbox" so he has several appropriate options to choose from.

[hakeber]

DH and DS go through this periodically starting at almost exactly that age which sadly overlapped at the time that his father was dying of bone cancer.

I have observed that 9/10 times their clashes are linked to how dh is feeling about himself as a man. He takes every meltdown as a reflection of his value as a human being. In his mind it's his job to protect his son from the harsh realities of the world, and he often feels we are not preparing him for the harsh fact that not everything can be negotiated and that there IS an arbitrary heirarchy of power amongst males that it is largely based on the stronger/better fighter over the small and weak and the small and weak who question that system are crushed violently. His heart IS in the right place.

I have found myself playing mediator in the family. It annoys dh and he does take the huff with me, but I expect him as a fellow teacher and a co-parent, to buck up and get on board and I have let him know in no uncertain terms that I will not be on his side unconditionally just because we are partners. I will not be on DS's side unconditionally either, BTW, but as DS is essentially the student, I will be giving him a much larger learning curve than the adult. But in reality I often feel like I am teaching them both how to talk like grown ups. DH grew up in a very emotionally stunted environment and he just doesn't know how to communicate his fears and anger to us in a healthy, consistent way. Not that I am perfect by any means. I have my meltdowns, too.

I have had a lot of success by just modeling for DH how to talk to DS, and by sitting them both down at a table and doing the whole couples therapy thing "So Benjamin, you said XYZ. Daddy, how does that make you feel? Daddy when you shouted at Benjamin, what were you trying to say? Benjamin when you said you didn't love Daddy anymore did you mean it or were you just trying to hurt him?" Stuff like that. It makes DH see and HEAR for himself that DS's behavior is RARELY EVER (dare I say NEVER) about his desire to defy his father ot make his father feel small and insignificant, but rather just about a pure id-based need to gratify his emotions/wants/imagination, that his requests for more more more is not a sign of ingratitude or disrepect for what he has been given but in many ways a 5 YO's way of saying "I believe you will meet my needs and make me happy to the best of your ability and I am not afraid to ask you for anything from a hug to a cookie to a new book or toy. I know you will not belittle me or make me feel I do not deserve it, even if/when you have to say no." He just doesn't have the words yet, and it's OUR job to give him those words over time. DH has gotten better and better, and DS has gotten more and more expressive. It takes time.

[lookatreestar]

yes!! this is very similar to my dh, at 3 it seems like a switch has been flipped in him. she is now "old enough" and "smart enough" to listen (because everyone listens all the time). the list goes on and on. he has not at all gotten physical but the shaming, i told you so, mean comments, nagging. it is all too much it is even harder that my dh won't read a book and he dismisses everything i say about parenting. our dd is totally spot on for a 3 year old and she is very easy going!!! but yes he often engages in power struggles with her about the smallest things

agh. i feel your frustrations 100%

[sachasmom]

Originally Posted by hakeber

DH and DS go through this periodically starting at almost exactly that age which sadly overlapped at the time that his father was dying of bone cancer.

I have observed that 9/10 times their clashes are linked to how dh is feeling about himself as a man. He takes every meltdown as a reflection of his value as a human being.

Yes! That is exactly what I feel is going on. Both you and the following poster seem like you're in the same situation I'm in: a husband who seems to be on board with Attachment Parenting and then mysteriously jumps off the bus at 3 years because he seems to think it's his fatherly duty to become the disciplinarian. It's like all our talks about AP were, in his mind, just for infancy. And now suddenly he's seeing his son as an independent person -- and completely panicking.

I honestly think it's his upbringing. He was disciplined harshly in childhood and went through an extremely wild teenage phase where he got into truly dangerous situations behind his parents' backs -- all while managing to be the top student, star athlete and 'polite young man' they demanded he be. All the research suggests that this kind of defiance (not to mention lack of honesty!) is typical of children subjected to harsh physical discipline and shaming tactics. But in his mind, all the statistics are just me nattering at him. And the one lesson he seems to take out of it is: I don't want my son to be as wild as I was -- so I need to crack down pronto! I just can't make him see that his wildness was more likely because of his parents' discipline rather than in spite of it. It's so sad. And so ironic, considering that my parents were easygoing hippies -- and my brother and I would never have done one tenth of the things my husband and his brother did simply because we couldn't have faced their disappointed faces if they ever found out about it. But I just can't seem to get through to him on this.

And, yes, like a couple of other people said: it's the shaming that's the worst. I cringe every time he says those things. Where could anyone possibly get the idea that this is an appropriate way to talk to a child? It makes me realize that his parents must have been a lot meaner to him than he's ever admitted to me. I think in the end that's the only way I'm going to get through to him: to gently point out that if he acts like his father did then he's setting up the same kind of long-term relationship with his son that he has with his father -- which is to say no meaningful relationship whatsoever. I know he doesn't want that, so hopefully I can bring him around eventually.

Thanks to all the people who've made suggestions too. I know Unconditional Parenting, and I'm afraid that's going to be a nonstarter. But I've started reading Parent Effectiveness Training, and that seems like it might actually work for him.

Meanwhile I'm just trying to stay between them and head off these scenes before they happen. Lots of fun when I'm sick as a dog and just want to lie down most of the time. All in all, this is NOT my recommendation for a low-stress way to spend your pregnancy!!

[sparkprincess]

I just wanted to say that we've been going through that here, too, for the past couple years. It's really frustrating and I can totally sympathize with you!

I kind of feel like my DH sort of panicked when ds started to get past the baby and toddler stage and wasn't suddenly perfect. Like AP was supposed to produce this perfect child that never acted out or something.

I'll def. be looking into the books previously suggested!