sibling violence

[sanguine_speed]

[philomom]

Don't they have separate friends? Playdates? That sort of thing. Maybe one could go to the locally run daycamp at the park. Or sign them both up for some very tiring sports camp. Some better separation might make them not as fight as badly when they are together.

Also, a nine year old is old enough to ride her bike around the block a few times the next time she's making trouble.

Do you have friends with kids? Maybe one of them would hire the nine year old as a mother's helper or take the 6 year old on their next trip to the museum or pool.

[sanguine_speed]

[VisionaryMom]

Maybe they need more structured activities. It sounds as if they are pretty much free-play all the time. Perhaps just one craft or project daily will help them to have somewhere to focus their attention.

I have started separating DC when they fight more than once or twice in a day. I make them go to different rooms to play for 15 minutes or so, and that usually will give them a chance to get away from each other.

The way I handle things in the moment depends. If you are wrestling over a toy, then I will take the toy away most of the time. I just put it on top of the fridge for a little bit. I don't really have any desire to negotiate the finer points of toy disputes to determine who might be at fault. If I don't see what happened (which is usually when I'm cooking), then I try not to "take sides." I've seen both DH & MIL take sides when they didn't see what happened, and I've noticed it's pretty often not the side I would take having witnessed whatever problem. I think what you're describing happens often. One sibling cries & screams more, and that often results in the one not being loud getting in trouble.

If they're hitting and won't stop, then I physically separate them and make them sit in chairs at the table or stand by me while they calm down. I try to talk them through whatever happened, but in your case, I'm guessing you don't have tons of time for that with 2 smaller ones around.

Can you give the 9YO more to do to feel grown-up? Maybe she can help you with something around the house that will get her away. Also, can the 6YO play independently? I know that's harder for the younger children because they've always had an older sibling, so I'd probably make sure the 6YO can play alone and isn't just bugging the 9YO because she doesn't know what else to do.

[sanguine_speed]

[Callimom]

I'd try to work on developing a closer relationship between them, rather than always separating them and focusing on the displine component. There are good suggestions in the book Siblings without Rivalry and Loving Each One Best.

Good luck!
Karen

[sanguine_speed]

[VisionaryMom]

Honestly with a 2-month-old, separation is probably the best thing all around. While it would be wonderful to work on fostering their relationship, this is one of those times to me when the needs of the entire family unit need to be considered. There's a mama still in the early post-partum period, a toddler, and a 2-month-old who all have needs to be met.

I'm not suggesting separating them all day, but I don't think it's unreasonable to separate them when they fight for 10-15 minute intervals. Heck, I'm not even suggesting that they're put in places where they can't play or anything - just get them out of each other's hair while you focus on whatever it is you need to get done.

I think one of 2 things will happen. First, you may discover that they do well with some separation. (I find this is true of my children. DD talks incessantly, and DS is an introvert. He just does better with some time away.) Or they will realize that when things are busy and they fight, they have to separate, which could lead them to working out their problems before they escalate to screaming, hitting, punching.

[lmk1]

In the specific case of TV watching, could you make a schedule (all together) of who will watch what show when? That way if the 6 year old is done watching her show, it doesn't matter if she wants the TV turned off, because it WILL be set to the other show that the 9yo wants to watch, no matter what. Also, can you give them more assignments to do separately? Since you have younger children, can you give the 9 year old the responsibility of watching the baby for 1/2 hour, and the 6 year old something to be done with your other child? They're both old enough to help out quite a bit and it sounds like you need it. That would leave them feeling like they're helping and with less time to be bored and fight. The more they fight, the more tasks they probably need. Not as punishment, but as a way to be more helpful, rather than less.

[sanguine_speed]

[sanguine_speed]

[lmk1]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

What would you do in the specific case where the kids are outside playing in the neighbourhood, and one of them comes in to complain that the other one hit or kicked her? You didn't see it, and the other kid is a block away and you've got a toddler sleeping and a newborn eating? Is there a way to deal with this without immediately going to find the other kid without making the injured kid feel that you don't care? FWIW, I often find that when I try and discuss incidents that I didn't see, it's usually the younger child that reports, but when the whole story comes out, both kids were being physically violent with one another.
I spend a lot of time talking about why it's not okay to hurt someone else, and offer alternatives such as asking for help in sorting out conflict (and like I said, I follow through with this offer when it's taken up).
Do I, over the medium-term, restrict playing together out of eyesight until they can successfully manage conflict in such a way that I don't have to march down the street to sort it out on a regular basis? Give them twenty minutes, then they have to check in and discuss whether there is any conflict and then try and work it out before it escalates? Seems rather intensive, but what the heck else can I do but let them beat each other up or keep them indoors under watch?

From what you've said it seems that both are equally responsible for the violence...and so they're both aware of what they're doing. Perhaps in this situation, just say that you can't do anything about it right now, that you need to take care of 2 younger siblings. How badly are they getting hurt? If it's not a trip to the hospital type, then perhaps, they really need to resolve it themselves...especially since in your case, it seems that it takes 2 to tango. I know it's hard, but perhaps, if you stopped reacting, they'd stop doing this to make you react? If you're finding both kids were being violent, then when one comes to "report", tell her she can play by herself then to avoid conflict with the other one.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

No wonder this feels so impossible!
One suggests separation, another more closeness.

Reading would be fabulous, but I'm still working on Gordon Neufeld and Alfie Kohn. I guess for now it's putting out fires until I can find time to read more books.

Here are some quick ideas for you. We don't have a lot of physical stuff between my kids (for which I am very grateful) but when it happens here are some of our strategies.

In our family we have a 'You hit you sit" rule. All the kids (hitter, hittee and bystanders) involved sit on the couch and wait until I am ready to deal with them. While they are sitting they need to come up with a plan- to solve the problem that initiated the hitting, and how avoid this in the future. And then we talk - about various strategies to avoid the problem, about what hitting does in a relationship and how it affects both the hitter and the hittee, about our family rules, about being the kind of person we want to be. They come up with a plan to make amends to each other and to carry forward and then they can go. Once they go I make a point of checking in with them a couple of times to see how things are going.

We have family rules - 5 of them - and the kids use those to negotiate their problems. Frankly I am kind of amazed at how well they work. They are
~ always listen to one another
~ be kind
~ be helpful
~ use words to solve problems
~ respect what mum and dad ask

If the kids are struggling with an issue they often go stand in front of the fridge together where our rules are and use them to help solve the problem.

In terms of fostering a closer relationship, I think the first step is removing all areas of competition and comparison. The second is to start setting up situations where they think first of their sibling and where they see themselves as a team. (This started when our kids were really young with things like asking them deliver a cookie to their sibling and then come back for their own.) It has evolved now to where they watch out for each other. Some of the things they want to do are dependent on working as a team - ie playing out of sight, going to the park without me, taking the bus to Gran's.

We have a no exclusion rule in our family which extends outside our home. My kids have left their friends houses on their own volition if someone is trying to exclude (their siblings or others).

We also try to do the team approach to lots of things - cleaning/chores, toys (almost all our toys are group toys), getting out of the house etc.

We have family meetings regularly where issues at the root of conflict can be discussed.

All this stuff takes work - proactive work, which I completely admit is hard to do with little ones. But some of it you can start laying the groundwork for now.

Both books I suggested are pretty easy fast reads - and have hands on suggestions for things to start right away. Neufeld is great - Kohn is only so-so in my opinion but both of those books are more theoretical and so maybe they could wait. It sounds like you can use some hands on stuff now.

good luck
Karen

[HeatherB]

This sounds so much like my oldest boys these days. I'm not sure if it's just it being summer and really too hot to go out, or the stress the whole family has been under with trying to sell our house and move, or age, or what. It seems the older one is more often hurting the younger (they're 8 and 5.5), but I'm certain it goes both ways.

We do really well with out-of-the-house rules, and I'm liking the idea of working more on "family rules" such as taking care of each other (when my mom taught a before/after school program for many years, that was her ONLY rule - we take care of each other - and it pretty well covered everything!).

So far, the only thing I've found that works effectively is separating them. They share a room but have bunk beds, so when they've had issues, I've been sending them to their own beds. The great thing there is that, half the time, the 8yo aggressor falls asleep. He may not feel like it's that much of a consequence when he falls asleep, but it takes care of what is likely the root of the issue. It also quiets the whole house down, which is good for everyone. When they get up, they have better attitudes, we talk about what happened and what they should do next time, and move on.

We've also used the Accountable Kids program. I'm working on re-implementing it. With that, they'll lose a privilege (TV, Wii, computer time are some of ours) if they are rude to each other. When they're out of tickets (they earn 3 per day), then they have to go to bed for some length of time.

We've also tried not separating them but making them sit together, holding hands. Then, they have to come up with a positive, encouraging thing to say to the other. While it took them AGES to come up with anything, what they did come up with was sweet and certainly reset their attitudes. I need to try that more often, I think.

[GoBecGo]

I was going to suggest hand-cuffing them together (not really, perhaps holding hands is better, but i have a newborn, a 4yo and mastitis today so i'm not very rational! ) until they can learn to treat one another with respect, and you not intervening any more than telling them they need to work out a resolution to it together.

From what i remember about conflict resolution and hitting when i was a kid there is no amount of talking and help from you which will prevent it - imagine scenarios

DD1 is playing
DD2 wants to join in
DD1 doesn't want her to
DD2 tries to anyway
DD1 gets annoyed about it
DD2 reacts to irritation with bad mood and incites DD1
DD1 hits
DD2 hits back or reports

Neither of them are going to want to resolve that. DD1 doesn't WANT to play with DD2 and DD2 doesn't want to be told to leave DD1 alone. So they're not going to seek help until after the event anyway, because ANY resolution would involve one of them "giving in" and neither want to.

BBL, DD2 crying....

[mamamille]

Hey- just came across this and thought of you...
http://www.askmoxie.org/2010/07/disc...ng-effect.html

I haven't read the book, but appreciated the synopsis.
Don't have any other ideas as no siblings here yet, and my sister and I fought like cats and dogs while I was living in the house (I was the older, 3.5 years apart, single mother) I think you are very sensitive to both girls situations- my little sister was very devious, and I was more like a bull in a china shop. And because it was just her and I and my mom there was so much struggle for psychic space, as well as physical space.