Masjid preventing children entrance(kinda)

[Amatullah0]

Assalamu Alaikum

For this ramadan, a group of sisters in our masjid is organizing to keep kids out of the prayer hall during the first 8 rakat(we do 20) for taraweh. Instead they are forcing women with children 0-3years into a small room (old classroom) outside of the masjid, and putting older kids into activities(3-6 year olds in paid babysitting, and 7-10 year olds in a separate paid babysitting room if they aren't praying(because that usually means they are talking or running around)

My issue with it is that they are preventing children from praying with their parents(even 5 year olds who normally pray won't be allowed to pray, they have to be in babysitting(I confirmed this with the sisters organizing this)) My other, perhaps greater issue is that mothers with young children will be quarantined into a small classroom with a high concentration of young children who will be allowed to run wild because they are not with the normal congregation, AND that I am not comfortable praying without being able to see, and sometimes being unable to hear, the imam(due to shoddy speakers). I think I've been taught that in order to pray in congregation you have to be able to see the imam, or at least be able to see people that can see people who can see the imam(in case you can't hear him, or you get lost, so you know which rakat he's on)

As I think about it, I wonder if I should fight it, or at least ignore it, and bring my son anyway, and keep him in my mei tai(he'll probably be sleeping anyways, these prayers start after 10:30pm and last until 11:30 or 12am). This masjid is literally 2 minutes from my house. OR, I could go to the other masjid, which is between 15 and 20 minutes away. OR, I can stay home, but I really would rather go to the masjid for prayer, because it keeps me motivated

I'd like to hear perspectives from Muslims and prople of other faiths as well. What would you do?

[Ammaarah]

With a little one, I skip tarawih prayers at the masjid. In fact, I skip them with an older kid too (she's almost 5) because it's just tough on her.

If praying it at the masjid were important to me, I'd take on the sisters who want to make it so regimented. Does it suck when there are a few kids making a ton of noise and being goofy? Yeah, kinda. But I think it's harsh to segregate the mosque like that.

I'd probably go to the one 15-20 minutes away if the sisters who have this plan are holding firm on it.

[chimomma]

I could see both sides of it, maybe it is slightly less conveinant for mothers, but when you look at the effect of having the whole congregation distrubed because of noise from children, it might be a fair trade off. At least they are giving mothers of young who want to pray an option to bring them. I know for me it can be more distracting knowing my children are disturbing other people than the noise of the children themselves since, lets face it, mothers of young ones are probably pretty used to praying through baby craziness. It is great they are offering activities and babysitting. I am not sure I have ever seen a 5 year old pray the whole taraweeh prayer with out breaking loose at some point. If you want to bring your kids, ask the sisters to make exceptions for those who want to bring their kids in if they are able to remain quite. I have seen masjids who do this for jummah, they don't restrict kids in the main musullah out right, but they do provide a separate room for people "who cannot control their kids." Some times it makes it easier for everyone, less pressure on moms, less ditraction for non-moms.

[Liquesce]

Every time I hear of policies like that I start thinking about how nice it would be to have a separate family prayer space where parents with children can go .......... but then I start thinking about all of the mosques in my old neighborhood, where kids would run around some and pray some and just act like kids, and how if any adults were phased by that they didn't really publicly let on. And just how nice *that* was without any apparent sense that anyone has a public right to be free of children. It reminded me of the hadith about the prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam heavily extending his sujud and that of his congregation just so as to not disturb the grandchild who had crawled onto his back.

I certainly understand the desire to have a very solemn prayer space. I just feel a little bit like if I want a guarantee of quietude then I can stay home better than trying to erase other people's children from the public space, kwim? I see so much benefit in letting children be a normalized part of the community.

Of course then I also start thinking about the implication that small children arriving in the care of men is not a consideration, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

ETA: Ok, that was a lot of randomness that didn't actually answer the question. In short, I agree with Ammaarah ... I would probably be more likely to attend the farther mosque that otherwise met my needs. But if attending the nearer one was important to me, I would absolutely try to approach the subject in a compromise-seeking manner.

[umsami]

I see both sides. I've been annoyed when I've seen kids running through the prayer area... as if they have no parents who care that they're disturbing others. (I don't equate that with crying babies.) But then again, sadly a lot of women in masjids where I've prayed have kept up major conversations either with their friends or on their cell phones during the khutbah... so

Personally, at probably every mosque I've visited, women have been quarantined into less than desirable space. I've been in masjids where the space is so small for all of the women/children, that literally there isn't space enough to pray... or women end up leaving rather than end up on the street. Where I go now, the women used to have this beautiful balcony area--but as the number of men grew, we lost that. It upset me a bit. Now, the women are in classrooms... with one for women with no children/older children, and another for those with young children. I actually think it's nice for the women who don't have children (or young children) to be able to pray in peace and quiet. I look forward to that some day again...

For me, if I knew my five year old could pray the entire time without disturbing anybody, then I would ask for an exception. Also, perhaps if I had a sleeping baby/toddler--and I was afraid that the noise of the young children room would wake them.

I would also see if you can get with other Moms of young kids to equip the kids area appropriately so that they do not disturb those who want to pray. Perhaps some swings/bouncy chairs that people want to donate for Ramadan... a tv/DVD that can be kept on low.... crayons/art supplies... some blocks/toys/etc. Blankets/mats/pillows for naps, etc. Also due to the time, perhaps keeping the lights low may help.

Being a convert and coming from churches that usually had very well organized babysitting/Sunday school during the services, I have to say that the typical woman's section was a shock to me.

[Amatullah0]

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

With a little one, I skip tarawih prayers at the masjid. In fact, I skip them with an older kid too (she's almost 5) because it's just tough on her.

If praying it at the masjid were important to me, I'd take on the sisters who want to make it so regimented. Does it suck when there are a few kids making a ton of noise and being goofy? Yeah, kinda. But I think it's harsh to segregate the mosque like that.

I'd probably go to the one 15-20 minutes away if the sisters who have this plan are holding firm on it.

Originally Posted by chimomma

I could see both sides of it, maybe it is slightly less conveinant for mothers, but when you look at the effect of having the whole congregation distrubed because of noise from children, it might be a fair trade off. At least they are giving mothers of young who want to pray an option to bring them. I know for me it can be more distracting knowing my children are disturbing other people than the noise of the children themselves since, lets face it, mothers of young ones are probably pretty used to praying through baby craziness. It is great they are offering activities and babysitting. I am not sure I have ever seen a 5 year old pray the whole taraweeh prayer with out breaking loose at some point. If you want to bring your kids, ask the sisters to make exceptions for those who want to bring their kids in if they are able to remain quite. I have seen masjids who do this for jummah, they don't restrict kids in the main musullah out right, but they do provide a separate room for people "who cannot control their kids." Some times it makes it easier for everyone, less pressure on moms, less ditraction for non-moms.

I would be totally cool with the "mothers who can't control their kids" room. Thats what we did last year, but I feel that if you cannot control your kids, they are getting grumpy, destroying things, being disruptive, then you need to teach them how to act in the masjid, maybe take a break, and maybe especially if your kids can't handle it, do like amaarah does, and stay home and pray.

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Every time I hear of policies like that I start thinking about how nice it would be to have a separate family prayer space where parents with children can go .......... but then I start thinking about all of the mosques in my old neighborhood, where kids would run around some and pray some and just act like kids, and how if any adults were phased by that they didn't really publicly let on. And just how nice *that* was without any apparent sense that anyone has a public right to be free of children. It reminded me of the hadith about the prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam heavily extending his sujud and that of his congregation just so as to not disturb the grandchild who had crawled onto his back.

I certainly understand the desire to have a very solemn prayer space. I just feel a little bit like if I want a guarantee of quietude then I can stay home better than trying to erase other people's children from the public space, kwim? I see so much benefit in letting children be a normalized part of the community.

Of course then I also start thinking about the implication that small children arriving in the care of men is not a consideration, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

ETA: Ok, that was a lot of randomness that didn't actually answer the question. In short, I agree with Ammaarah ... I would probably be more likely to attend the farther mosque that otherwise met my needs. But if attending the nearer one was important to me, I would absolutely try to approach the subject in a compromise-seeking manner.

I agree completely. And about the men with the kids, they are organizing to have some men on guard too, to collect the kids who are in the men's area. but, i don't know what they could possibly do if a man brings his 1 or 2 year old to the masjid. I mean, we have no place for men to pray in two different places.

I think a good alternative might be teaching women the adab that goes with the masjid. I mean, If you have kids that might need your attention, you should be standing near the wall so you can leave, and you should leave during the salah if your kid needs you. women also don't realize that you can't leave a huge gap in the line for your kids and your diaper bags and your purses, but thats a whole 'nother story

Originally Posted by umsami

I see both sides. I've been annoyed when I've seen kids running through the prayer area... as if they have no parents who care that they're disturbing others. (I don't equate that with crying babies.) But then again, sadly a lot of women in masjids where I've prayed have kept up major conversations either with their friends or on their cell phones during the khutbah... so

Personally, at probably every mosque I've visited, women have been quarantined into less than desirable space. I've been in masjids where the space is so small for all of the women/children, that literally there isn't space enough to pray... or women end up leaving rather than end up on the street. Where I go now, the women used to have this beautiful balcony area--but as the number of men grew, we lost that. It upset me a bit. Now, the women are in classrooms... with one for women with no children/older children, and another for those with young children. I actually think it's nice for the women who don't have children (or young children) to be able to pray in peace and quiet. I look forward to that some day again...

For me, if I knew my five year old could pray the entire time without disturbing anybody, then I would ask for an exception. Also, perhaps if I had a sleeping baby/toddler--and I was afraid that the noise of the young children room would wake them.

I would also see if you can get with other Moms of young kids to equip the kids area appropriately so that they do not disturb those who want to pray. Perhaps some swings/bouncy chairs that people want to donate for Ramadan... a tv/DVD that can be kept on low.... crayons/art supplies... some blocks/toys/etc. Blankets/mats/pillows for naps, etc. Also due to the time, perhaps keeping the lights low may help.

Being a convert and coming from churches that usually had very well organized babysitting/Sunday school during the services, I have to say that the typical woman's section was a shock to me.

I agree, its a big problem in our masjid too that women talk during the khutba and during the salah(the ones that aren't praying) and that sets a bad example for their kids.

Another thing, I don't know if I mentioned it, the babysitting is only for the first 8 rakah(during that time, all kids must be in babysitting, and after that time there will be no babysitting at all). but, most parents leave by then because their kids get cranky/have to wake up the next morning/etc.

I think theres a BIG difference between kids(and women) who have decided not to pray, for whatever reason, and instead of staying quiet, they decide to talk(usually loudly), cell phones ringing, 8 year olds playing tag through the jama'a AND toddlers or babies who are crawling/walking around and just being cute little babies

DH doesn't want to go so far so late at night when we have a masjid 2 minutes away. So I might just go to the close masjid, see how it goes, and if it gets bad, we'll go to the further masjid.

[zoebird]

man, i hate it when this stuff happens. i would seek a child-friendly place to pray.

in my yoga studio (though not religiously affiliated) we are creating family classes where children are welcome because i want that for myself and my son. i want him to experience a community of practitioners and be able to enjoy it all.

[Amatullah0]

Originally Posted by zoebird

man, i hate it when this stuff happens. i would seek a child-friendly place to pray.

in my yoga studio (though not religiously affiliated) we are creating family classes where children are welcome because i want that for myself and my son. i want him to experience a community of practitioners and be able to enjoy it all.

Thats awesome! Thats one of the reasons I like being a doula, most things in the doula/BF area ARE child friendly. If I were in the area, (and if I had the money ) I would totally take your classes.

[umsami]

AA Amatullah:

Just noticed that you're in SE Michigan. I don't know exactly where... but in case you're in the Metro Detroit area, my parents live near what looks to be a really family friendly masjid on Square Lake Road (I think... Bloomfield Hills area). It's called the Muslim Unity Center. If you're at all in the area, you might want to give them a call re: their Ramadan programs.

[lilyka]

I can understand the frustration from both sides. We have a few families in our church who do not parent their children during church. The kids are literally throwing toys, climbing over pews, screaming, playing tag, running in and out throwing shoes...its a dissaster. usually someone from the parish council will just escort the child out and then be forced to babysit them for the saftey of everyone else. but that sucks for them and is not their job. but they are realy a distraction and a danger to the priest and a danger to themselves. when it is time for lunch (we eat a communal meal) their children rush to the front of the line take heaping plates and thenthrow them away mostly uneaten. Ocasionally someone will just step in and tell them no, they have enough, other people need to eat. then they head back up stairs to the sacred areas and use it like a playground. ticks me off!!!!! and it is like their mother does not even notice (there are two families. I think they are related). Its nuts. And there is a part of me that wants to make a rule about. Moms have to be with their kids, tied to them if need be, away from the civilized parenting sorts of people.

but at the same time a blanket rule for everyone would tick me off. this really should be a decision parents make individually. It is great they are offering something. this whoie solomn, long service late at night could easily be misry inducing for some kids. but to force everyone into it is not fair. Is there someone higher up you can talk to? Someone your husband could talk to? You should be able to bring your child to pray and someone in the community should know you and your child well enough to know they will not be a disturbence. They will either behave properly for the occaision or you will remove them.

yeah. I would talk to someone.

[Amatullah0]

yeah, i'm in metro detroit, not gonna say where, but unity center is way too far away.

This group of sisters is actually a group of mothers, who have kids ranging in age from 0-10 years old, though most of them are preschool/elementary schoolers. They've also brought it before the masjid shura, who I believe did approve it, though I'm not 100% sure of that. another thing is, they aren't doing the babysitting on the busiest nights , the odd nights in the last 10 days.