So Upset - I Don't Know What to Do

[*~megan~*]

DD is 23 months, has slept with us since day 1, has always been a frequent and voracious nurser (day and night), and is extremely intense and persistent. She is spirited and will not settle for anything less than the boob for going to sleep. She has always fought going to sleep, and until just the last few months, never gave me a four hour stretch. She also has never accepted staying by herself for sleep - be it nap or nighttime. I have to stay with her or she will not stay asleep. Anytime I have tried to leave during her naps she wakes before I'm out the door or shortly after and is either grumpy or really freaked out.

I am 6wks pg. My milk supply has dropped drastically and she still nurses frequently but doesn't get nearly as much as she used to. Since I have to pee all the time now, I am needing to try to sneak out now and then while she is sleeping. The last week or so I can't make it to the bathroom without her going absolutely ape because I'm not there. She has a 6th sense and will wake almost instantly from a deep (for her) sleep. No matter that DH is right there at night, she goes nuts. She has also not been staying with DH if she asks me to get something before bed either, and during the day she has been sticking like glue. She has always been a velcro baby, but this time there's a hint of desperation that wasn't there before.

I know that she needs to start accepting some other form of nighttime comfort. I can't meet all of her demands as well as those of a newborn. I'd go crazy if I tried. (I very nearly did go crazy with her intense and incessant needs when she was tiny.) What kills me is that she will not accept cuddling from me as comfort. I have even tried suggesting that we snuggle or cuddle during the day when I know I have no milk and it hurts to nurse her and she just won't do it. She gets hysterical, to the point of making herself sick, and just screams and cries for booby. I wind up giving in even though it hurts because she is just so devastated that I can't do anything else. I can't watch her get upset to the point of vomiting if I can handle the pain. She is just so freaking persistent that nothing but nothing else will do. No food item, no special drink can distract her when she has her mind set on something. She will not accept a lovey and has always rejected them soundly when we've tried to incorporate them in the past.

She generally falls asleep sometime between 9 and 10pm. Before the spring time change she was in a pretty good groove where she would be asleep by 8:30. She usually stirs to nurse at around 12am or so, takes her fill and then drops right back off. After that point, she usually doesn't nurse again until maybe 6am, at which point she is on and off every 20-40 minutes or so until we get up for the day, usually between 8:30-9am.

All of this to say, I don't know where to go from here. I am hesitant to completely nightwean her because she still gets quite a bit of milk at the 12am session. Seeing as how my supply is tanking, I hate to cut that out and deprive her of the nutritional and immunological benefits she is getting from it. When DH is working, he leaves the house around 4am, so he's not here to help with cutting out the 6am nursing either. Actually nursing her to sleep can take anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours. Usually it's closer to 45 mins to an hour.

I have thought about just leaving things as they are and waiting to see if she stops getting anything at midnight, at which point we could work towards total nightweaning. On the other hand, I don't know if I should waste any time seeing as how it is going to be a long, painful process with her.

I am so sad and so grieved. I feel like sometimes I hate myself for getting pg because it is causing such upheaval in DD's life and is forcing us to take steps with her that she obviously is not ready for. I feel like an awful mother and an awful person. If anyone can help me, I'd be so grateful.

[ElliesMomma]

my daughter is a lot like yours, only twice as old.

first off, it will get better. but it will take some time and some getting used to.

are you wearing her out completely during the day? seriously, go to the swimming pool, go to the playground, have playdates with other kids, go for a long walk or bike ride or trike ride -- in fact, do all of that in one day. better yet, go to the zoo or take a trip to the city by train. the "big trips" are my best salvation for a good night's sleep for my highly spirited daughter.

if your supply is already tanking, chances are it's not going to last in much quantity.

having nursed through pregnancy myself, my advice would be for you to *decide* if you want to nurse through pregnancy and go on to tandem nurse, or if you want to quit nursing your first and have a break before nursing your second child. i chose to nurse though pregnancy, and i made a strong commitment in my mind to do whatever it took to get my daughter through it with very little supply. granted she was close to three years old when i got pregnant, so considerably more mature. i never told her that the supply was lower due to the baby... but it was my daughter herself who tipped me off that i was pregnant at least a half week before i missed my period. she told me that the milk was "empty." if you decide to keep nursing "on empty," tell her to keep nursing and the milk will come back eventually.

my DH also leaves for work at 4 am, so i understand about being on your own for nighttime parenting, too. i won't lie to you -- it ain't for chumps being alone with a high energy youngster and a new baby. it will not be easy.

and i have to warn you that, as much as DD loved her new baby brother right from the start, and there was never *any* jealousy (thanks in part perhaps to tandem nursing) -- she did become seriously hyper for about the first six months after he was born.

now she has settled back down considerably, but she is still one of the most active little kids i know.

just do your best, momma. it is all that you can do!

[NiteNicole]

There is a really good book called Sleepless in America and it really changed my life. It's all about setting up your DAYS to get a good nights sleep. I wish I had read it first. I don't actually remember what the actual "getting them to sleep" and "dealing with night time wakings" was so my apologies if it's not gentle. My daughter responded SO well to getting her DAYS right that her nights stopped being an issue. Thank goodness because I was worn OUT from years of poor sleep and we were getting frantic. Hope it helps.

[JanineRivera]

Dear Megan,

My DD is also 23 months old and was doing very similar things up until a few months ago when I just couldn't do the all night nursing anymore and so we night weaned.

I was very hesitant to night wean for a long time; after a couple of friends told me their successful night weaning stories and after many consecutive nights of hour+ nursing to sleep sessions I just knew it was time for a change. It was not nearly as terrible as I had imagined; I thought she would be screaming for hours, clawing at my boobs but all she did was protest for a bit and fall asleep, really! That was how I knew that she could handle this change.

It took a couple of months before her stretches of sleep lengthened and she is still waking up about once a night. Although my overall sleep has improved we still deal with other sleep issues; we still deal with the hour long getting to sleep session, which really is getting to me!! Sometimes she will roll over and fall asleep within 30 minutes other times it can take up to 1.5 hours.

I am telling you this because I found that there is no "cure" or specific steps to follow that will change the habits of a "difficult sleepers" but there is some relief when you are able to change things up and at least have a different difficulty to deal with.

Especially since you are pregnant, you may want to give night weaning a try and see how your DD reacts. Everything happens when it needs to and you will figure out what will work best for your family. Most of all my advice is to remember trust, trust that you will know when and what to do.

Best of luck,
Janine

[lookatreestar]

my dd was the same (i got preg when she was 17 months) and i just nursed her through it. i couldn't bear to say "no" and really towards the end she realized she wasn't getting much and would just pop on/pop off and go right to sleep. and really after the baby she kind of understood and it was pretty easy to put her to bed in between his nursing sessions. hang in there!

[*~megan~*]

Thanks for the replies.

I definitely do not want to day wean her. I think, that with her personality, tandem nursing will go a long way with cutting down on jealousy. If I were to wean her forcefully, I think she would remember that and be terribly upset that someone else would be getting what used to be *hers*. Plus, I always planned to let her wean herself anyway. If she decides to stop on her own that is one thing, but I don't want to be the one to force it.

I guess what is also plaguing me is I don't know if the super clingy behavior is just age related or due to the pg. Like I said, she's always preferred to be in arms rather than not, but before the pg she was making huge strides in becoming more independent and now I feel like all those strides she made have disappeared.

[Snapdragon]

is she eating enough in addition to nursing? Can you uptake her fat/calorie intake with a nourishing food that she likes?

[*~megan~*]

She has been increasing her food intake. Lately she's been really into avocado, which I know has good fat, and we do lots of hummus and homemade refried beans. I am dairy allergic so we don't have cheese or yogurt.

[D_McG]

Where is she developmentally? Is she on track/typical? What you're describing seems a little off to me but maybe it's just the context. Have you spoken to her pediatrician at all?

Personally once nursing started to become a kind of obsession for my kids I worked very hard to scale it back. I know that might not be typical advice here but it started to make me feel uneasy and I felt like it was getting in the way. Some calm but non-negotiable limits were truly life-changing for us. I had to start to see myself as a leader and not an observer. I 100% understand that that is specific parenting style and may not be yours. And I'm not saying my way is better or anything like that. But it really changed the dynamic in our home and made us all calmer.

[*~megan~*]

She is on track for all of her milestones. She has always been demanding and persistent to an extreme. Even as an infant she would go from cooing to the red zone in the blink of an eye. She would barely give me time to lift my shirt before we'd have a screaming baby on our hands. Some kids give subtle and increasing cues. Not such with her. I always had to anticipate her before she got to that point. I have spent most of the last 2 years bent over the carseat nursing her on car rides. She would scream herself purple in the carseat. For most of her first year, I could not drive a car. I had to wait to go somewhere till someone could drive us (my mom or DH) because NOTHING would keep her occupied in the back of the car. No sippy of water, no toys, no snacks. Since I learned I was pg I have been sitting in the front or driving. She has been doing really with that, as she gets a granola bar as a treat. The ped says she is fine, that some kids just require more than others. She screams bloody murder while she is there and he is examining her. He said he has had one other patient that is as extreme as that, and she is now 16 and a wonderful young lady.

I just took her to the ped dentist today. She basically told me what a rotten mother I am for still bfiing and cosleeping, and that her new cavities are my fault. I am also hindering her development by doing these things and apparently she will never potty train. Oh, and I am really really bad because we are dairy free. This woman told me that if she wasn't sleeping through the night by four months, it's my fault. She, paragon of parenting that she is, left her 4 month old to CIO for 3 nights and she has STTN since. Needless to say, we will NOT be going back to that practice, but it does make me wonder if nightweaning isn't the best option to help keep the cavities from growing. DD had 2 filled 6 months ago and I just don't know if it's worth it to put her through it again.

We've just had a really craptacular day here.

[ssh]

You are not a rotten mother and the cavities are not your fault. I have 2 DDs and nursed both of them to sleep and during the night. One weaned herself at 3.5 the other a couple of months before turning 4. My DD1, now age 24, didn't have a cavity until she was 18 years old. My 4.5 year old DD2 has had lots of cavities. We had work done while sedated when she was 3.5 and she's having 4 cavities filled while sedated in a couple of weeks. I didn't do anything different with DD2, she's just more cavity prone. Some of that can be heredity and lots of it can be nutrition. In DD2s case I think it's heredity. I had a lot of cavities as a child and my fathers teeth were so bad he got dentures at age 35. There have been some really good threads on dental issues in the Dental section of Health and Healing on alternate therapies and healing carries with nutrition.

[Anna GS]

Oh, man. Huge hugs to you!!! I have some of the same issues with my son right now, excluding the pregnancy and the extreme clinging. I don't think your daughter sounds "off" at all. Not one bit. And the dentist, yikes! I'm glad you won't be going back.

I recently tried a combination of nightweaning techniques from Dr. Jay Gordon and from the No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers. My son was as frantic as you described your daughter. He has never cried until vomiting, but I could see him getting there if I pushed the issue too much. And he does not accept any other form of comfort. No lovey ever interests him and if I offer him one of his stuffed animals he tells me "Nooooo!" If I try to pat his back, sing, hold his hand, caress, he becomes furious. I'm pretty sure my attempts at gentle nightweaning resulted in a major sleep regression. It didn't help that DH does not do night parenting.

I wanted to nightwean because I was getting such horrible sleep so regularly that I was just not able to be the parent I wanted to be anymore. I was regularly getting out of bed in pain and completely angry about the aggressive way my son nurses. DH would not agree to transition DS to his own room and we don't yet have a bed to put him in that would fit in our room, so as a last resort I started sleeping in another room by myself.

Ever since I removed myself from the family bed, I've seen a huge transformation in DS's sleep. It hasn't been 100% better, but he has basically started sleeping through the night more than half the time. I'm spending much less time nursing him in bed. The drawbacks are that I have to listen to the monitor as I sleep and get up to nurse him when he does wake, but I can deal with that. Oh, and DH is not happy with the arrangement because he is a nervous guy and says he worries all night about DS waking up and me not hearing him (which has happened a couple of times but hey, it's not the lifeshattering disaster DH makes it out to be AND, I wish DH would just learn to soothe him!). But it has really helped *me*. Your daughter sounds much more sensitive to wanting your presence, though, so I'm thinking that solution may not help with your case. I wish I could think of something that would.

Hang in there! Maybe the answer is out there.

[LadyCatherine185]

first of all big big to you!!!

we have been in a very similar situation. i got PG when DS was about 18 months old, and at that time he was still nursing every 1-2 hours at night, and every 2-3 (or more) during the day. my milk started drying up, and it started becoming very painful to nurse. I was very nauseous and exhausted. So I nightweaned using the Dr. Jay Gordon method (but we took it slower, a month rather than 10 days) and cut back his nursing during the day. I cut back the day nursing first (to wakeup, before nap, after nap, and before bed) and I think that made it easier for him to stop at night. The first couple weeks were rough with the day-nursing, but then things got MUCH better. And the nightweaning went GREAT, no tears, just a little fussing. He now sleeps in his own bed with Daddy handling wakeups, and he sleeps MUCH better. 5-8+ hour stretches and goes right back to sleep with a quick cuddle.

My DS also had some cavities that had to be filled that the dentist said was caused by night-nursing. I don't know what to believe about that, but that was another motivation for me to nightwean.

I also think some of her intensity/clinginess sounds extreme, but I do know that all kids are different and she just may have a very intense personality. You should check out Dr. Sear's Fussy Baby/High Needs Child book. I also second the recommendation for Sleepless in America.

Also, just curious, how much do you all get out during the day? Be it outside, or around other children, etc? And how much exposure does she have to other people? Just from what I have seen with other kids/toddlers around me, the ones who are around other people and allowed to be cared for by others seem to be a lot more independant than those who are jsut with their mamas all day, everyday. Just a thought, but maybe you could join a Playgroup, or something of that nature to get her out around other kids. And have your DH and her have a special date time. My DH takes DS out every Saturday morning for breakfast (has been doing this since he was about 7-8 months old) and it is a really special time for both of them. DH has a very attached relationship to DS, and I think that has really helped him not be so clingy to me.

[elus0814]

I have to agree with d_mcg, something sounds a bit off but perhaps it's simply that she has a hot temper and it's something that needs to be worked on. It sounds like all her needs and wants have always been put before everyone else's and it's catching up on you now that you're expecting again. There is no reason for a two year old toddler to be dictating when you can drive your car or when you can use the bathroom. With each of my kids it's been a transition for the older ones to learn that they will now have a smaller share of my attention. I agree with a pp, planning active activities like swimming could help. I've had issues too when having to wean while pregnant due to a dropping supply then again while having to give attention to the new baby, during both periods of time the 'current' baby was upset but by giving lots of cuddle time (usually while reading) we got through it. Two years old is, imo, plenty old enough to start learning that gratification must sometimes be delayed because of the needs of others. Your need to not be in pain while nursing is most certainly an important need and must sometimes be put before her need to nurse.

[*~megan~*]

LadyCatherine - It's funny that you mention Sears' Fussy Baby Book. It was reading that that convinced me I wasn't crazy when DD was tiny. I really felt like I had been dropped into some sort of alternate universe when I had her. No one else I knew had ever had a baby that *needed* so much.

As for how much we get out, we do Kindermusik once a week which she really enjoys. She loves going to church and interacting with everyone there, though she is not the kind to run into the arms of people that aren't around her everyday. We go to the stores of course and occasionally to the in-laws. We often walk down to my mom's house to visit, and she comes over alot too. DD was never one to let anyone else care for her. It was mama or noone. When she was really tiny, my mom would come over every day and hold her so that I could take a shower, as she would not stay in a bouncy seat or any other baby holder. She was the type of infant to fuss and carry on incessantly if she was not with me. She still does not like to be held by DH's parents, as they tried to force it (on repeated occasions) when she was tiny and she became truly afraid of them. On one occasion, MIL wrested her from my arms and would not return her to me. She was only weeks old at the time. She cried and cried and would not settle. I kept trying to get her back but MIL kept walking away from me. DH finally told his mom to give DD back or they would not see us for a long time. So DD will allow my mom and DH to meet some of her needs, but definitely not her nighttime ones. When she is in a place she feels comfortable and where people treat her authentically, she is the most outgoing, friendly kid. When she is in a place where she is not treated authentically (my IL's for example, though things are much better now that she can talk and assert herself, instead of me having to defend her, I was the evil one there don't you know)

I am leaning towards beginning nightweaning. Slow and steady I think is the answer. I really do not want to be nursing 2 at night, and with the new cavities, it probably isn't the worst idea. I know that the bfing doesn't cause it per se, but now that the process is started, the milk sugar staying on the teeth at night won't help stop it either. I've been reading on the dental boards here and I am truly overwhelmed by the nutritional changes we would need to make. I am so overwhelmed by everything right now. I know I should be grateful and count my blessings but right now it just feels like I can't win for losing. I have to accept that nearly 2 years of on demand, day and night nursing has been a wonderful thing, and getting mama milk during the day is still beneficial.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by elus0814

There is no reason for a two year old toddler to be dictating when you can drive your car or when you can use the bathroom.

Agree. I'm actually shocked to read that. and to read that your had to have someone come and hold her while you showered. Not that my kids were psyched when I left them while I showered but being clean is a priority and they had to deal.

It's hard to tell if it's your parenting choices or something to do with your DD but either way I'd try to be confident as you make changes and be open minded to seeking the advice of a developmental pediatrician if needed.

eta: I have a 4 year old who can be anxious and I've learned that there is a fine line between comforting and enabling. With higher expectations of my son I've helped us both grow. My own example is meal time. He was so freaked out by new foods and I would just snatch them away because he was so distressed. But ultimately I realized that I was supporting and reinforcing his irrationality.

Limits and consequences for him being rude at the table have transformed our dinner times. You might have more success with a similar approach

[*~megan~*]

Just to clarify - I have been able to drive with her since she turned one. I just hadn't been doing it very often, as my mom and I usually go places together. This past year did spiral out of control in that regard as when we would be traveling together, I would sit in the backseat to keep DD company. We would read, label things out the window, etc. but it always came back to her wanting to nurse in the carseat because I did it out of survival when she was younger. That is why I put an abrupt end to it. I didn't discuss it with her, but I've introduced a new normal and she has accpted it amazingly well.

As for the showering arrangement when she was younger - agreed! Being clean is a priority and shower time is sacred time for me. Had my mom not been availalble to sit with her, I would have stuck her in the bouncer and hopped in and out as quickly as I could have. But my mom was generous enough, and lives close enough, to have held her and entertained her while a got a short break from her. Not everyone has that option, and not everyone is close to their moms, so that might not have worked in every situation.

As far as parenting philosophy, some of the books I have found edifying are: Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, Unconditional Parenting. I don't know if that puts me outside the norm here or not, but as of right now, that is where I am.

Which brings me back to the point of the original post. Our nighttime arrangement was working fine for us until the pg. I am trying to determine how best to meet DD's needs sensitively and authentically. I am having a very difficult time making that determination as I am so anxious about the changes that another LO will bring, and how those changes will affect DD. The cavity issue gives me yet one more variable to consider.

It hurts my heart to think of DD crying inconsolably, albeit in the arms of her father, if we decide to nightwean. Which is why I think I posted in the first place. I don't want to do her irreparable damage if she is not ready. Determining if it is the best thing, ready or not, is what I am trying to do.

I hope that clarifies things. I didn't mean to sound like a raving lunatic or complete incompetent. It has been a very emotional and very trying last few weeks, so I apologize for the rambling nature of my previous posts.

[TnMsMama]

I have ZERO advice, but wanted to commiserate. My daughter is much younger, 10 mos, but very boob-centric. Nurses all night (see my post above about night-weaning a 10 mo old) and I, too am pregnant!

My milk supply is dropping off and she is TICKED.

Maybe establish a TOTALLY new bedtime routine? If normally you do dinner/bath/story/bed/boob/boob/boob maybe you could do add singing some songs into the mix - maybe that change will distract her from the boob change?

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by TnMsMama

Maybe establish a TOTALLY new bedtime routine?

This.

We had to do this with DS. We went from nursing to sleep to reading books on the couch, cuddling in bed with Daddy and Mommy and having a little nurse, and then Daddy putting him to sleep. It worked great. Took about 2 weeks for him to catch on, but he did.

At almost 2 years old, making some changes (especially if she is still in the arms of her Mommy or Daddy) is NOT going to do harm to her. As long as she is a normally developing 2 year old.

I also agree with the PP's about enabling behaviors. Obviously under age 1 their "wants" are almost 100% of the time their "needs" as well. But after that, and especially close to age 2 and beyond, they can learn to adapt to other people's needs as well.. and need to learn that.

Have you had her evaluated for any type of sensory issues?

[ACsMom]

Megan, what was your daughter's birth like? Any trauma? My first daughter had similar issues. I read "The Aware Baby" (I forget the author's name - Aletha Solter?, but you could probably find it on Amazon by title), which tells how to help a baby heal from birth trauma as well as the normal stresses of life. I can't recommend this book enough. It changed our lives. If your dd does have some unresolved trauma/anxiety issues, it could be that she uses nursing as her way of comforting herself and keeping herself from feeling the difficult feelings she has bottled up inside, and what she needs is to be able to cry in your arms and express those feelings, and have your attention and love while she's doing that, so she learns she can get her feelings out and be okay afterwards, kwim? Nursing can become what the author calls a "control pattern" that keeps difficult feelings at bay. Just a thought.

If it seems to be something beyond what a few good crying-in-arms sessions can help soothe, then it's possible you have a child with an anxious personality or a budding anxiety disorder - but in those cases she'll still need help finding ways she can deal with anxiety, so the book might still be helpful. Anxiety problems are very treatable (I'm speaking as someone who's been in the mental health biz for a long time) especially if they are caught early on. Your ped might be able to refer you to a good child psychologist, if you need it down the road. If it's any comfort, the issues I had with my daughter were pretty bad up until about 18-20 months, and now she's a very happy, confident, securely-attached 4 year old who's adapted very well to her new sibling. Her birth was highly traumatic, for all of us, and I feel like that was the source of all her early nurse-aholic, no-sleep behavior.