is this reasonable for a 4.5 yo?

[smellyann82]

dd is generally spirited..not out of control, but easily carried away in the moment, i'd say. having a 15 mo little brother is challenging for her. she likes to play in the living room near the action, which is not a good idea with a toddler lurking around. she at times remembers to go in her room (about 10 steps from the living room, with a gate that she can open and close and see the action through--not isolated) the issue happens when she gets excited--dancing to music, enjoying a game of ball or something else, finding something ds is doing funny, trying to get to another part of the house. she just DOES NOT show him any kind of physical gentleness. and it is becoming more of an issue b/c ds has a broken collar bone. we ask her repeatedly to move away from him and she does not. i usually help end the activity and find something calm to do, but dh is very concerned that she's not listening to direct requests for her brother's safety. just totally tuning us out. it escalated into all out family mayhem this morning.

so, this is my potential solution. dd gets ONE warning. we will make every effort to get on her level and look her in the eye, and ask if she's heard us. after that, she will be (gently) escorted to her room. as i said it is not isolated and has a whole warehouse full of her toys, which she enjoys. she will stay there for 5 minutes or so (timed by us) until we can make sure ds is safe and talk with her about her carelessness with him, and after that as along as she wants to play.

sound effective? not too harsh? i shy away from time outs, but this is a safety issue. even if he wasn't hurt, he's still a whole heck of a lot bigger and stronger than him. she just can't seem to leave him alone.

[ssh]

I tend to like time ins better than time outs, so I'd probably make my DD come help me with whatever I'm doing or at least do something in the same room with me or right next to me, like painting at the kitchen table while I'm cooking. Does your DD get outside play time? That could help some. My 4.5 year old DD would also have difficulty playing calmly, watching where she's running/dancing and also likes being near everyone else.

[smellyann82]

it is typically when we're all just playing around together, not while i'm otherwise occupied. ds is getting a molar right now, so doing other things has been happening very little....i've been spending much more time than normal just sitting and engaging with the kids. a time-in, which we've used quite a bit, is challenging, because, unless dh and i are both home, which is only about 2 waking hours a day, a time in with me for her is a time out for him, because she NEEDS to get out of the action and away from him, and he follows us and cries at the gate of her room (the one place that is calming for her, because he isn't able to get in)

[bonamarq]

I personally think, given all that you have said, this sounds pretty reasonable - I'd say more of a logical consequence aimed at the safety and protection of ds.

I too shy away from time outs but this seems less punitive then the typical super nanny style - with the open gate and access to toys etc -

do you feel compelled to impose a time period? - would you feel okay with telling her (would she comprehend) come join us when you can be more careful/watchful of your brother - at 4.5 she may need lots of reminders and I'm guessing you'll need to be quite close at all times when they are together

[tbone_kneegrabber]

at ds's school (where I've been teaching for the last month) we have started a mandatory "break" for any hitting/kicking/pushing etc (I think the heat made the kids all wild) and we pretty much let them self regulate.

We tell them when they are ready to be "kind/gentle" etc they can join the group. Usually the kid goes behind the couch (its like a little private nook, where they enjoy playing as well) and screams and cries, maybe hits a pillow a little, gets it all out, and then is ready to join the group in just a few minutes, it usually seems like they are worked up and need to get it out.

So allowing her to self regulate the time in her room might work well, and if it doesn't then you can impose a time limit.

eta the kids I'm talking about are 2-6 yo's

[meemee]

mama i am not sure i get exactly what's going on.

so say you guys are all dancing to music. dd you and ds. and she loses it and doesnt notice he is around and may hit him or shove him right?!!!

now any other child i would say your suggestions are reasonable.

a spirited child - no.

they reach a peak very quick and are NOT aware of ANYTHING in their surrounding. its like they are revved up and cannot calm down or do anything unless they get that excited energy out.

you have to help her with a clue. either give her a weighted blanket to put on her which will help her calm down. or hold her in a bear hug. or use a certain word to get her attention.

i have a dd like yours. and for me (of course it was easier for me as she is my only) i would watch for that 'over the top' behaviour and not let her get high.

dd needed something to 'bring her down to earth'.

at that point her body is not ready to listen to anything you have written. eye contact. speak. not unless she gets that mad energy out. i think till dd was 5.5 what was key was enough physical exercise. even now at almost 8 we take a walk or do something physical before we do some activity that she finds really exciting. because she loses it. she goes crazy with excitement and nothing is beyond her. it may not be physical but it could be her lifting her dress and showing everyone her underwear. she would never do that in a calm state. but in that euphoric state - that almost trance, possessed state she has no idea what she has done.

even today bear hugs work for dd. what i call some kind of grounding. sometimes i have been harsh at her because she so shocked me in public with her 'bad' behaviour. and i felt bad. i really feel its my call to keep an eye on her euphoria to keep her from doing 'something'.

i havent figured out a way to help her self regulate that - except to make sure she gets a lot of physical exercise during the day.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by meemee

mama i am not sure i get exactly what's going on.

Neither am I. In particular, I don't understand your comment that "she likes to play in the living room where all the action is." Well...yeah. I don't see the problem. Did she accidentally break her brother's collarbone? You don't say in your post that she's hurt him, even accidentally, just that she likes to play around him. I don't understand the constant asking her to go into her room (even if she can see the living room from there) behind a gate or not to go near her brother. That just seems like a recipe for resentment.

[Cujobunny]

grrr i just wrote a reply and it disappeared... anyway..


If she was doing some high energy activity and you were worried that the little one would get hurt, I'd be more likely to move him away. Put him on your knee & look at a book, be her audience if she's dancing, find a spot with more space so that he can play with his toys.

I understand you want there to be a consequence for her not listening to you (or more accurately, not doing what you say) but I think that punishing her for playing or dancing isn't fair. It's asking too much. My ds has always had personal space issues, we've been reminding him to "give people space" for about 3 yrs. But unless he's doing something on purpose to hurt someone, he doesn't get taken away from the action. Just reminded. Again. And we work together to figure out a way we can all do what we want safely.

[smellyann82]

what i am saying is that when her play becomes energetic, which happens from time to time throughout the day, she is a danger to her brother. no, she did not break his collar bone, but her dancing and other energetic play has knocked him down many times, which of course is now painful with a broken collar bone. she has another space in which to play, and my 15 month old is not going to be content spending time on my lap watching her play. her energy level escalates either when she finds something exciting, when she sees him playing with something she wants, or when he sees her playing with something he wants. her room is not there to keep her out of the action, but to give her a space where she can focus on her play--which is all day full blown pretend play. at 15 months, he doesn't understand giving her space, nor can i constantly remove him from play--there's nowhere else in our apartment for him to play. her roughness with him is unintentional, and she's not ever pushed or hit, but just slams into him in her state of excited play. but this is not an overriding desire to force her to listen to me, this is her energy level making the common space unsafe for someone else. she is never upset when i ask her to play in her room, she just is unable to hear my requests when she's in the heat of her energy, and my question was whether, in the opinion of others, gently helping her take her energy into her room is appropriate for a four year old. i just can't imagine that keeping ds out of the play constantly is fair to him...some days, especially getting toward the end of the day, the only safe option is to either ask her to play in her room or at the table, or to put him on my back in the ergo. he hates that, it is very hot without a/c, and i'm pregnant, so that option is quickly a non-option. and i also can't imagine that leaving ds in an unsafe situation or constantly restricting him is fair to him. when dh is home she is rarely in her room alone, but when it is just me and kids, it is either gently helping her to her space where she immediately jumps into play or just chills for a minute and comes back out, which gives me time to turn off the music/put the balls away, whatever is causing the issue, or joining her there while ds cries at the gate.

i suppose this was just a question for parents of other spirited children, although i can not always assure that she is not going to go over the top on energy without forgoing every other possibly activity in the house, nor is this an issue at every moment, and eye contact is very very effective for her, as is a soft touch, which is grounding for her--usually on her shoulder, just to focus her in....or maybe also for families who have children who are young toddlers and old preschoolers. integrating play for both of them is a constant challenge (NOT battle, as i seem to have made the situation seem). they are at completely different ends of the spectrum developmentally and giving her a separate space has been our family's way of giving dd the space she has requested and, at the same time, giving her a space for her energy while keeping ds safe. the gate is also, as i said, not to keep her in, but to keep him out--away from small dollhouse pieces, puzzle pieces, stringing beads, craft supplies, etc.

[VisionaryMom]

My older child is spirited, so I do get the constant ball of energy issue. I just don't see how it's going to be effective (or fair, tbh) to expect her to go into her room all the time. Toddlers are going to get bumped into and knocked down. They need to learn to co-exist, and I'm not sure that's possible if your plan is to separate them for play. I don't know how I'd handle the broken collar bone because I don't know how fragile they are. You say this is a safety issue, but unless your 15MO is still pretty immobile or learning to walk, then I can't see that it's such a safety concern.

So, in answer to your questions, I don't think a one-warning, on eye-level, is too harsh. I just don't think it's appropriate given the situation.

[mamazee]

I have a spirited dd, and telling her not to bounce around is like telling her not to breathe. You can't change who she is, and it isn't reasonable for her to have to remain in her room all the time, so depending on how fragile your little one is, you can move in and get him out of the way when something looks potentially like a problem. How fragile does his doctor say he is? I've been through the broken collar bone issue (though with a nephew, not one of my kids) and as I recall they can't be tackled or anything but they aren't going to break because they get nudged when someone is dancing near them. So I think part of it is getting a realistic idea of how careful people need to be, and the second part is not making that her responsibility, as she's too young to understand or shoulder it.

[Grace and Granola]

I totally get where you're coming from! My oldest is a ball of energy and has trouble controlling himself once he gets wound up. He is almost 5 and it is starting to get more manageable. He has a younger brother, but only 17 mos younger, so we've been dealing with it a long time. I have to say that I tried to "protect" my younger ds from older ALOT when they were both littler and I wish I had done things differently. I did alot of separating them and admonishing ds1 for being "rough" with his brother. now that they are 3 and 4 I can see that I have encouraged some resentment between the two of them. I wish I would have done more removing the baby rather than admonishing ds1. I'm not sure why you see it as punishing ds to move him to a safe area, but it's not punishing your dd to make her go. Either way, both of them were playing, only you've deemed dd's play as offensive.

If your dd is FINE with going in her room to have space, then I can see how it's a good idea. But if she feels punished or like she's missing out on family time, then I would find another way. Does your ds have his own room that can be made into a safe playroom for him? I might also try some playful parenting type things with dd that can re-route her from her whirlwind of dancing into a calmer activity. If she got wild, I would first give her the soft touch/eye contact warning. If she couldn't bring it down, I might scoop her up or get down with her and with a great big hug and tickle say "How about we go read a book together?!" Or draw, or craft, or cook, etc. Something that will take the energy down a bit.

My almost 5 ds is very bright, sweet, and kind....but when he gets around other kids or his energy gets up, all of his impulse control goes out the window. I can reason with him until I'm blue in the face, but he's just not there yet. He absolutely cannot control himself yet. One day