when natural consequences are unenforceable

[elus0814]

I'm wondering what the moms here who use natural consequences do when there is no way to enforce the natural consequences. I really like the idea of using natural consequences rather than arbitrary punishments or rewards but it seems that I can almost never make the kids (ages 4 and 5) follow through with it.

Some examples:

- they play rough and knock the one year old over. The NC would be having to help him up then comforting him but there is no way to make them do so.

- they refuse to leave the house or get dressed. The NC would be being left behind but I certainly can't leave them alone while I go out or take them out without clothes (there is no family nearby or available babysitters, I've tried to find one)

- they throw crayons around the room. The NC is that they have to pick them up but I can't make them pick them up, I can only ask or tell them to and if they refuse then they don't do it. I can also take the crayons away but then school lessons don't get done and I know one day soon they will figure out that if they sabotage their school work there is nothing I can really do about it.

- they refuse to do their homeschool work. The NC is that they will not get an education but that is hardly a threat for a young child.

- they run off in a parking lot. The NC would be getting injured but that's not an option so I'm not sure how to handle this one without enough hands to hold onto all of the kids but luckily it doesn't happen often.

- they refuse to eat what I've made. The NC would be going hungry and although we often refuse to serve anything else I can't simply not feed them and they are old enough to go into the pantry and get something out while I'm taking care of the baby or doing other housework. If nothing is handy (like a granola bar) they will stick their fingers into the peanut butter, eat a bunch of crackers, etc. We've tried having cereal and milk as an alternative option but they now refuse to eat that as well.

- they jump on the furniture. The NC would be either getting hurt or not being allowed on the furniture. I've tried not allowing them on but unless I guard the couch all day there is no way to keep them off.

- they won't go to bed. The NC would be being tired but they don't mind being crabby the next day (even though I sure do!). If we have somewhere to go the following day letting them only sleep six hours isn't an option and we're so often exhausted at the end of the day with a bunch of things left to do so hauling them back upstairs endlessly isn't an option (we've tried and it goes on for hours). They're often so tired they're crying but they want someone to lay with them for the hour it takes to fall asleep, there are more kids than parents and lots of work to accomplish after they go to bed.

There are lots of other examples but I think those sum it up pretty well.

The kids are pretty well behaved for the most part (except bedtime) so we don't often have to use any kinds of consequences or rewards but this is the one part of using natural consequences that I don't understand. I don't want to yell or use time outs and rewards don't seem to work, is there any other way?

[weezix]

I have no suggestions that I can think of, but I feel exactly the same. This is what I struggle with the most here. My kids are still so young so it seems even harder.

Today has been especially hard with my three year old's temper. She is over tired (and has had a nap) but is still screaming at and hitting her other siblings and I have no idea what to do. I hope you get some suggestions because I'd sure love to hear them.

[AFWife]

On the not getting dressed...do they wear PJs? I have a memory of my mother making me go to preschool in my PJs because I refused to change clothes. The embarrassment was enough to make me get dressed every morning after that.

[hakeber]

Some of your NCs do not feel THAT NC to me.

Originally Posted by elus0814

- they play rough and knock the one year old over. The NC would be having to help him up then comforting him but there is no way to make them do so.

No there isn the knock on effect that would be that they do not get to play near or around their siblings until they do because they cannot be trusted and they are not fun to play with. If you see your family as a mini society this is what happens to people who are not nice to others.

- they refuse to leave the house or get dressed. The NC would be being left behind but I certainly can't leave them alone while I go out or take them out without clothes (there is no family nearby or available babysitters, I've tried to find one)

Or to take them in their underwear with a long coat, or let them sit in the car in their underwear. (but bring along the clothes in case they change their kind)

- they throw crayons around the room. The NC is that they have to pick them up but I can't make them pick them up, I can only ask or tell them to and if they refuse then they don't do it. I can also take the crayons away but then school lessons don't get done and I know one day soon they will figure out that if they sabotage their school work there is nothing I can really do about it.

They no longer are allowed custody of the school crayons and must sign them out one at a time until they can be trusted to take better care of them. If they were personal crayons it would be easier.

- they refuse to do their homeschool work. The NC is that they will not get an education but that is hardly a threat for a young child.

Or you send them to conventional school and see how they like that as an alternative.

- they run off in a parking lot. The NC would be getting injured but that's not an option so I'm not sure how to handle this one without enough hands to hold onto all of the kids but luckily it doesn't happen often.

In the future they do not get to leave the car, or if they do must be harnessed or ride in a stroller until they can show they know how to listen.

- they refuse to eat what I've made. The NC would be going hungry and although we often refuse to serve anything else I can't simply not feed them and they are old enough to go into the pantry and get something out while I'm taking care of the baby or doing other housework. If nothing is handy (like a granola bar) they will stick their fingers into the peanut butter, eat a bunch of crackers, etc. We've tried having cereal and milk as an alternative option but they now refuse to eat that as well.

Why not offer fruit and peanut butter and homemade granola bars (I have a super cheap and super easy recipe if you need on) instead...just let them eat what they want. Lock up high and away the things you do not want them eating and don't sweat it is they choose granola and bananas over dinner, just ask them first to let you know BEFORE you make/plan dinner that tey do not want it so you can make the right amount and not waste food.

- they jump on the furniture. The NC would be either getting hurt or not being allowed on the furniture. I've tried not allowing them on but unless I guard the couch all day there is no way to keep them off.

My parents took the couch away and put it in their room. They saw it as theirs and only on loan to us kids. If we could not treat it carefully it was natural/logical that it would taken away. We just sat on the floor.

- they won't go to bed. The NC would be being tired but they don't mind being crabby the next day (even though I sure do!). If we have somewhere to go the following day letting them only sleep six hours isn't an option and we're so often exhausted at the end of the day with a bunch of things left to do so hauling them back upstairs endlessly isn't an option (we've tried and it goes on for hours). They're often so tired they're crying but they want someone to lay with them for the hour it takes to fall asleep, there are more kids than parents and lots of work to accomplish after they go to bed.

That's a tough one...hard to tell what is age appropriate.

I don't think using natural consequences means you never ever get to set boundaries and can only allow things to happen to them. There are natural consequences to your trust and feelings of comraderie that come into play as well. I think as the parent you can absolutely law down the law more specifically and still be doing NCs where appropriate.

[ssh]

A natural consequence is something that just happens. So the NC of playing rough and knocking the one year old over would be the one year old is upset or hurt. A NC of throwing crayons around would be some of the crayons get stepped on and broken or lost. Some of what you are calling natural consequences seem to be logical consequences. We only use consequences for danger situations "If you can't play safe, you can't play." or "If you won't get in your carseat you can't go anywhere". Other wise we don't use consequences at all. We talk about possible natural consequences and how to make good choices.

[hakeber]

Good point ssh. That's an important distinction. I sort of lump them together somtimes.

[HappyMommy2]

I agree to think about other logical consequences. For the crayons, if you have to put them away, then they are gone for x amount of time. For schoolwork, they can use just a gray pencil or the boring black crayon.

[elus0814]

Originally Posted by hakeber

Some of your NCs do not feel THAT NC to me.



No there isn the knock on effect that would be that they do not get to play near or around their siblings until they do because they cannot be trusted and they are not fun to play with. If you see your family as a mini society this is what happens to people who are not nice to others.

-As a mom with three and soon to be four children there is no possible way to separate all the kids at all times, that is simply not realistic.


Or to take them in their underwear with a long coat, or let them sit in the car in their underwear. (but bring along the clothes in case they change their kind)

-A coat on the gulf coast in summer? Bare skin on blazing hot car seats? Again, not realistic. Taking them out in their underwear isn't either. What happens when the neighbors call security forces (we live on a military base) because the kids aren't wearing clothing. This could also cause issues for my husband at work. Not to mention that at seven months pregnant I physically cannot carry a 55lb. child where that child does not want to go.

They no longer are allowed custody of the school crayons and must sign them out one at a time until they can be trusted to take better care of them. If they were personal crayons it would be easier.

-We have tried personal crayon boxes with each crayon labeled with their name, they still throw them around.

Or you send them to conventional school and see how they like that as an alternative.

-This is simply not optional for many reasons. The big reason is that I'm not going to send them to a terrible school because of their sometimes not being willing to do their work. This might be a last resort option for a high schooler but doesn't make sense for a preschooler and first grader.

In the future they do not get to leave the car, or if they do must be harnessed or ride in a stroller until they can show they know how to listen.

-There's nobody to watch them while they sit in the car and it's neither safe nor legal to leave them alone. There are things that must be accomplished out of the house. Never leaving the house would not be healthy for any of us. A stroller would be impossible for a four and a five year old, not to mention I'm not about to buy a triple or quad stroller (not that they would fit in it if I did). Even if I had one I wouldn't be able to lift it in and out of the car.

Why not offer fruit and peanut butter and homemade granola bars (I have a super cheap and super easy recipe if you need on) instead...just let them eat what they want. Lock up high and away the things you do not want them eating and don't sweat it is they choose granola and bananas over dinner, just ask them first to let you know BEFORE you make/plan dinner that tey do not want it so you can make the right amount and not waste food.

-Why not? Because there are only so many days that the kids can eat the same exact food for every meal. It's not healthy or realistic. You mention that kids should be part of the society of the family, as members of our society they need to learn to eat what is offered and not expect mom and dad to be short order cooks for them.

My parents took the couch away and put it in their room. They saw it as theirs and only on loan to us kids. If we could not treat it carefully it was natural/logical that it would taken away. We just sat on the floor.

-That's an interesting solution but not only is there no other place in the house that the couch will fit but it would be a punishment for the whole family. It doesn't make sense to punish parents and visitors.

I don't think using natural consequences means you never ever get to set boundaries and can only allow things to happen to them. There are natural consequences to your trust and feelings of comraderie that come into play as well. I think as the parent you can absolutely law down the law more specifically and still be doing NCs where appropriate.

-It's certainly not that there are no boundaries, it's that the kids don't respect those boundaries and there doesn't seem to be any way to get them to without resorting to non-gentle punishments or out and out bribes.

.

[hakeber]

okay then...just trying to offer up other possible solutions. Start the brainstorming ball rolling on other logical consequences. Hope you find some solutions that work.

[One_Girl]

Are you having these problems now or are you just thinking of times when the natural or logical consequence may not be effective? I have personally never had most of the problems you listed. When dd is out of control a lot we talk about it and come up with a plan together to help her manage her behavior. Usually just telling her something is inappropriate, when/then phrases, or repeating my instructions and adding now to the end of them works. For some of your examples, like throwing things I think that you need to look at why they are throwing things. Do they need an outlet for energy or do they need a break to calm down from their anger. If they need an outlet then maybe take them to the park or try to creat a room where they can get energy out safely if it is too hot. For bedtime issues I think it is also important to look at why they aren't tired. Do they need more of a routine to slowly calm down and get in sleepy mode? Do they need a set bedtime? Are you missing their sleepy time by an hour or two and are they overtired? Do they need to cut back on a nap so they can sleep at night?

Some of the examples you list have a logical consequence that you may find works for your family. If my dd is doing things that are disrespectful to the areas that we consider to be for everyone, throwing things or jumping/climbing on furniture, she is no longer welcome in that space until she feels ready to use her self control. If she continues to destroy the peace of the room I decide when I send her out of it and decide when I am ready for her to use it again, that rarely happens. Typically I will try to get her outside if she is rowdy, but if that isn't possible I expect a level of self control that most three year olds are able to master, since she is seven I don't see that as too much of an expectation.

[happysmileylady]

I use a mishmash of natural consequences, logical consequences and punishments and rewards in my overall discipline philosophy. I believe that the purpose of discipline is to to teach a child both how and why to behave. Natural and logical consequences go quite a long way to teach a child why to behave a particular way, but I do believe that occasionally there is a need to teach a child HOW to behave, without the why, at least at that particular moment. I believe there are moments when the child simply doing what they are told is WAY more important than the child learning why, particularly right then. And so at those times, I will use "arbitrary" punishements or rewards as I see fit. I do often still try to tie the punishment or reward to the action as best I can-making the punishment fit the crime so to speak. But, I don't care if my 5 year old learns WHY he shouldn't run in the parking lot, at least, not at the age of 5. So that's an example of a situation where, for me, having my child learn to "obey" is exactly what I am trying to teach him.

As to some of your specific examples:

One child pushes another-I think you are thinking too small in regards to what the "offense" is and the logical or natural consequence. The misbehavior is that the child pushed, but overall, it's that the child is not being nice and respectful of other people. And a logical consequence of that, IMO is that if you can't be nice to other people, you can't play with other people. And the child goes to his or her room. Yeah, it sounds suspicously like a punishment, and perhaps it still seems that way to some. But to me it's much like the saying "if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all." If you can't play nice, then you can't play at all. That "time out" isn't arbitrary, it does have meaning.

The crayons-if you can't properly handle crayons, then you don't have access to them. Signing them out as suggested before is a good idea, if you feel they NEED them for school work. But, really, I don't think they NEED them for school work, they will just have to find other methods of getting the work done. And you could go as simple as just not buying new ones. Or if your kids get an allowance, then the child who broke the crayons is the one responsible for replacing them. Afterall, if they were adults and broke writing utensils they needed to work with, they would have to go out and buy new ones, right?

Your food issue, well, really, is it THAT much of a health issue if they do eat the same things every day? As long as the things you provide are healthy, eating the same thing for dinner each night isn't really going to harm them in the long run, and eventually, the natural consequence is that they will get tired of it. I would never make something else for my kids (or dh) just because they didn't want what I made, but I also don't care if they get something else on their own either. My goal isn't to teach my child to accept whatever is given to them, regardless of whether they want it. If that is your goal, then you need to think about a consequence that applies to that end.

And really, that's what I think is the heart of it all. What you have to come up with is the consequence that teaches what your end goal is. A punishment isn't arbitrary if it teaches or relates to what your goal is. If you are having continuous problems with these types of incidents, then I think you need to sit down and think about what you actually want your children to learn. And I think it's ok if the answer is "to do what I tell them to." And if that is the answer then an "arbitrary" punishment IS the answer because that's hat it teaches them. If it's, "I don't want them to throw crayons because they break and then I have to go waste more money buying new ones." Then you come up with a consequence that is directly related to that.

[puffingirl]

For running off in parking lots/public places, our consequence is that if you can't hold my hand and stay with me, you'll need to be buckled in a stroller or cart or held in arms, since this a big safety issue. This also applies to shopping at the store--I let DD know she is welcome to walk and help me shop if she stays near me and keeps her hands to herself with the exception of things I ask her to help get/put in the cart. If she's not able to do that, she'll need to go in the cart.

[Wolfcat]

For going to bed, I got one that usually works on my 4yo DS.

He doesn't like "leaving". Wherever he is is where he wants to be, most of the time. So, when I pick him up from daycare, and he starts to throw a fit, I remind him that if he doesn't get ready and leave like a big boy, then we won't have time for him to have gramma-day/swimming lessons/library day.

This works even if the desired activity is the next day, because I explained to him that the tantrums make it hard for me to get everything done that needs to be done. And if I don't get everything done, I can't make arrangements/preparations for his special activities, so he won't be able to do them.

I do fudge a little, cuz a lot of the time, these activities are pre-planned and I actually have to take time out to cancel them, but the lesson is still there. It also helps that these activities (ie, time with gramma) are often fraught with sugary snacks and schedule upsets, which causes more of the bad behavior. When he is better able to understand that connection, I will explain that aspect to him as well.

[mom2grrls]

First off how old and how many children do you have?
(Is it just the 5,4 and 1 y/os?)
First off if you said your children aren't getting enough sleep it's really hard to work on the behavior stuff b/c they go hand in hand. So I would work on sleeping and making sure they all get enough before I worried about what to do with refusals. I just read Sleepless in America and it has great advice tips, etc on sleeping well. Is your dh home at bedtime?