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Extremely concerned w bahaviour of 2.5 yr old dd

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I'm not sure if this behaviour is within the normal range anymore, even with the terrible two's. Dd seems to for lack of better word, have a genuine mean streak. I'm most concerned bc her first instinct in most situations is to be mean spirited. Tonight some neighbourhood kids found some worms and were looking at them on a table. As one of the adults I said, worms are good for the soil. Just then my dd threw a rock at them and said "kill". I'm in tears just typing that. Sadly it's not an isolated incident. I used to think she was just "spirited" bc she is extremely persistant, defiant and high energy. Now I think it's something more. She battles me constantly on every single thing from sun up to sun down. She is nasty most of the time. She has no respect for my authority when I give time outs or reprimand her. Nothing we do seems to get through to her or phase her. She is very rough with her new baby brother too. She has hit him, squeezed his face hard with the intent to hurt him, and she hits and kicks me and her father and other kids. She says she doesn't like this person and that person. She is just really worrying me. She has been verbally advanced (full sentences at 16 months) so I really don't think it's a frustration with communication. I'm sorry this is so long and rambling. I'm at my wits end. I can deal w the terrible twos and tantrums but this seems markedly different and more concerning.
Does anyone have any advice? Is it a phase? I'm open to recommendations and suggestions. Thank you in advance.
post #2 of 12
Has she always acted out like that, or has the behavior started when her sibling was born? My first thought was maybe it's jealousy and you could try to set aside some momma time?

Does she have anywhere she's GETTING the behavior from? Like TV or watching older kids or something? I would ask myself that first

Other than that hugs, I have no idea.
post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 
No, I meant to write that, her behaviour has always been aggressive and rough. Over the past couple months, it has escalated and progressed to nasty and worrisome. Her baby brother is a month old and her behaviour is probably the worst it's ever been since he came along....but it's still just more of the same old stuff (just worse) nothing new.
I know some of the behaviour is fro
a boy at her daycare. We're switching daycares in september and I can not wait. The dcp never reprimands this child for his horrible behaviour either.
post #4 of 12
what about nutrition? Could she benefit from fish oil? I have read that it can really change kids' behavior. Or could she have food allergies, such as to things like gluten or dyes, etc., that could be cut out?
post #5 of 12
The misery you're in as you witness her is really coming through. You've got so much on your plate with 2 littles, and the littlest so young. This is the best time in the world to get help.

Would you consider getting your dd into individual play therapy? Personally, I think if we were all given a therapist at birth, the world would be a much better place. Even if it's unaffordable, you couldn't possibly invest in anything more important (other than food and shelter.)

I'm not suggesting therapy because I know that the behavior you describe is not normal - I really don't have a clue. I'm suggesting it because you shouldn't have to figure it out on your own, and you shouldn't have to deal with it on your own. You deserve a professional's opinion to really truly address your worry, and she deserves skilled help that doesn't also have an infant on her mind.

I mean, let's say it's all normal. Wouldn't you still want a professional to help you manage the best response? I would. I often want a professional to help me manage my reasonably gentle 2.5er!

Good luck and good sleep, mama.
post #6 of 12
I don't have all the answers for you... I do have a suggestion though, that instead of time-outs and reprimands you consider the idea of "time-ins" and extra hugs. It could be that PART of the issue with her is the classic "attention-seeking" behaviour, so if she gets the unconditional love and attention she's craving, rather than constant correction and punishment (I'm assuming it's probably fairly constant given your frustration level!), perhaps she'll be able to emotionally calm down a bit.

Daycare is certainly an issue. I'm assuming it's not possible to take her out of daycare completely? While most young kids are able to adapt to the pressures of the forced separation and disrupted attachments of daycare, some more sensitive kids will react quite badly with it. Picking up bad behaviours from other kids is only part of the problem (but certainly a legitimate one!)

It sounds like she's very lacking in empathy. The best way to teach empathy is through modelling it -- if she sees other people are sensitive to her needs, she's more likely to reflect that behaviour when acting around others. And also, modelling empathy to each other (not just directed at her), and talking about things with her along those lines. "Oh that boy over there is crying, what do you think made him sad? What could we do to help him feel better?"

In other words, rather than punishment if she does something 'bad' like that, she needs to understand why it's bad -- and the reason isn't "because mommy said so" or "because you get sent to your room". It's "because another person is hurt". So instead of punishment, she needs understanding. Not with forced apologies, but with learning and modelling empathy.

It's not an easy fix, and of course if there's something more going on with her then it certainly won't fix everything. But it might be a step in the right direction.

I'd suggest a few books like "Hold on to Your Kids - Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers" (for stuff about building a secure attachment even when separation is necessary), "Unconditional Parenting" (for ideas on non-punitive ways to deal with things), and even "The Explosive Child" (for insight into kids who have difficulty controlling their negative emotions).

My older son was never actively mean, in the sense of hitting kids, but he was clearly lacking in empathy fairly early on. It turns out that he has mild Asperger's. He has a hard time seeing things from other people's point of view. Toddlers of your daughter's age do normally experiment with everything... "what happens when I do THIS", even when "THIS" is smashing something breakable on the floor. They're just curious to find out what happens, it's not deliberate "bad" behaviour. But doing it to hurt other people on purpose, it's either trying to communicate some need not being met, or a lack of empathy -- whether due to physiological reasons (ie asperger's) or psychological (lack of healthy attachment).

Good luck, hope you find some answers!
post #7 of 12
Oh and I also wanted to add, that I TOTALLY agree that you should look into nutritional/allergy things. There are kids overly sensitive to dairy, or artificial colours, or gluten, and one common reaction is in fact overly aggressive behaviour.
post #8 of 12
I second the idea for play therapy--can't hurt.
Also, it sounds like the other kid in the day care is showing her this behavior and she's trying to see if it will fly at home. Also, I wonder where that kid is learning it--isn't the dcp supposed to report signs of abuse to DSS?
post #9 of 12
I agree with all the pp's. I wanted to add that it seems like your dd wants to be dominant, not necessarily cruel. I would be more concerned if she were hurting kids in a sneaky way. Announcing that she wants to kill a worm and then throwing a rock seems like a way of asserting her superiority over the worm vs killing the worm in private. She wants to make sure that everyone knows that she is in charge. Is there a way that you can make her feel like she has some control?
post #10 of 12
I'm almost wondering if your daughter being so verbal is part of the problem.

At her age, kids don't have empathy. They don't understand hurting other people/things, making people sad, etc. They're still learning cause and effect, judging people's reactions, and making assesments based on that (thought I can understand the PP who mentioned ausburgers- my brother was the same, seemed to lack empathy well past the normal age, and he has ASD)

If she was an average not-very-verbal 2 year old, then if she threw the rock at the worm and stomped about and talked in that typical baby-chatter that no one can understand, you probably wouldn't have the same reaction. But because she threw the rock and said "kill" it escalates it to a new level.

My DD is 20 months. Whenever she sees a bug her first instinct is to squash it. We do NOT squash bugs in this house (because I'm wacko- I sweep AROUND the ants so I don't hurt them :eyeroll) so this is all her.

I think it's also hard to take a kid who is that verbal and fit their actions/words/whatever into the proper age category. A friend of mine has a 20 month old who has been speaking in full sentences for months, and she says she often forgets her daughter isn't even 2 yet.
post #11 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankgirl73 View Post
I don't have all the answers for you... I do have a suggestion though, that instead of time-outs and reprimands you consider the idea of "time-ins" and extra hugs. It could be that PART of the issue with her is the classic "attention-seeking" behaviour, so if she gets the unconditional love and attention she's craving, rather than constant correction and punishment (I'm assuming it's probably fairly constant given your frustration level!), perhaps she'll be able to emotionally calm down a bit.

Daycare is certainly an issue. I'm assuming it's not possible to take her out of daycare completely? While most young kids are able to adapt to the pressures of the forced separation and disrupted attachments of daycare, some more sensitive kids will react quite badly with it. Picking up bad behaviours from other kids is only part of the problem (but certainly a legitimate one!)

It sounds like she's very lacking in empathy. The best way to teach empathy is through modelling it -- if she sees other people are sensitive to her needs, she's more likely to reflect that behaviour when acting around others. And also, modelling empathy to each other (not just directed at her), and talking about things with her along those lines. "Oh that boy over there is crying, what do you think made him sad? What could we do to help him feel better?"

In other words, rather than punishment if she does something 'bad' like that, she needs to understand why it's bad -- and the reason isn't "because mommy said so" or "because you get sent to your room". It's "because another person is hurt". So instead of punishment, she needs understanding. Not with forced apologies, but with learning and modelling empathy.

It's not an easy fix, and of course if there's something more going on with her then it certainly won't fix everything. But it might be a step in the right direction.

I'd suggest a few books like "Hold on to Your Kids - Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers" (for stuff about building a secure attachment even when separation is necessary), "Unconditional Parenting" (for ideas on non-punitive ways to deal with things), and even "The Explosive Child" (for insight into kids who have difficulty controlling their negative emotions).

My older son was never actively mean, in the sense of hitting kids, but he was clearly lacking in empathy fairly early on. It turns out that he has mild Asperger's. He has a hard time seeing things from other people's point of view. Toddlers of your daughter's age do normally experiment with everything... "what happens when I do THIS", even when "THIS" is smashing something breakable on the floor. They're just curious to find out what happens, it's not deliberate "bad" behaviour. But doing it to hurt other people on purpose, it's either trying to communicate some need not being met, or a lack of empathy -- whether due to physiological reasons (ie asperger's) or psychological (lack of healthy attachment).

Good luck, hope you find some answers!
ITA with everything above.

Actually, when DD was 2y7m, and DS was born, I distinctly remember the shift in my approach after reading Hold on to your Kids by Gordon Neufeld.

DS was in a baby swing, and DD came over and pushed the swing HARD. my first instinct was to tell her NO! You can hurt him! STOP. The next day she did the same thing again. At that time I was reading Hold on to your Kids.

Neufeld talks about collecting before correcting (basically an emotional time in). His reasoning is that children do understand when they do wrong, they don't need an IMMEDIATE reprimand. They are not rats in Skinnerian experiments. In fact, if the reprimand is immediate, the child is still in a highly non-receptive state of mind.

So the next time DD pushed DS hard in his swing (he was a lot in a swing as I had a broken foot then ), I just pulled her up to my lap. I didn't comment on the incident. We just cuddled for several minutes. Then I quietly told her that DS can get hurt if she pushes him so hard. That was the last time she was rough with him.

The "collect before your correct" principle has done wonders, I'm not kidding. It was really like magic. Yet it is a drastic perceptual shift for a parent, as many think that immediate correction is necessary for eradicating "misbehavior."

I also agree with the other poster who says that her being verbal could be complicating things. Especially with a new sibling, you might have a tendency to regard your DD as older than she really is (I think it is natural, and we just have to remind ourselves of that. I remember how "old" DD seemed at 2.5! Especially when her brother was a newborn. Now DD2 is just over two, and because she is the youngest, she is more of a baby to us. It is easier to be objective). Your DD is the oldest, she is super verbal, but she is still a baby! And a baby who is going through a tough adjustment period of having a newborn in the family...
post #12 of 12
My DD (28 months) can be very agressive at times. However her father rough houses with her. Thats how they play. Sometimes she doesnt know the difference and she plays rough when its not appropriate. I do think at this age they are learning empathy. My DD will say sorry and pat me if she bumps into me. She does give hugs if someone looks sad. I do think some kids take longer to learn empathy. She can also be very mean sometimes and will not apoligize for her actions. Then a full blown tantrum follows. She has gouged at me and hit me and head butted me in anger. Its scary to see so much rage in a little person, but sometimes they cant explain what is really bothering them.

I dont have any real advice only hugs.
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