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Stubbornly Breech

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I'm 33 weeks with a persistently breech baby. Now, I know that there is lots of time for baby to turn and my son did turn at about this point. However, this time feels different to me. Baby has been in the same sort of position since we started checking position. Head is almost always under my right ribs, one foot down that we can feel, we think one up. My son flipped about a lot before settling in vertex at about 33 weeks. This baby, to my knowledge has never been vertex, or even transverse, baby likes this spot!. I also have an anterior placenta, which complicates things. I need to "talk this out" a bit. My DH says he's talked enough about it, and what be will be... But I've got choices to make soon-ish...

We're planning to birth at a free standing birth center staffed with two CNM's and a DEM. So, at my 32 week appt. my midwife suggested that if baby is still in this position at my 34 week appt. they would like to start talking about version, if I'm going to do one. They don't do them, but they have a consulting OB (who had a birth at the birth center and a homebirth herself) who will. They also have a DEM they work with who does them out of the hospital that they could refer me to. They like to see baby head down by 36 weeks and with my anterior placenta, some OB's won't do versions at all, and others will but want to do them early, so I need to consult soon and be prepared by my next appointment (in a week) to either schedule a consultation with the OB or not. My midwife speculated the OB would want to do the version at 35 to 36 weeks, which is a whole 'nother topic, as I worry about an emergency c-section at 35 weeks resulting from a failed ECV.

Now, if baby doesn't turn, I've got other options. They said I'm a possible candidate for a breech delivery there because I've had successful vaginal deliveries, but there are other conditions, like baby must be frank breech. The one midwife there has attended "several" breech births. They have a DEM they can refer me to that has done "many" breech births and they have two OB's at the local hospital that will "consider" breech births, although the midwife said mostly they will monitor you and look for reasons for a c-section. Now, all of this is mostly conjecture if baby is still single footling breech, because none of the above people will do a planned single footling breech vaginal delivery, nor am I likely to consider that.

I have a history of fast, although not precipitous, labors and painless dilation. I'm concerned if baby is still footling about waiting until I go into labor for that reason. I'm 30 minutes at best from the closest hospital, up to an hour depending on traffic and the time of day. The hospital the back-up OB uses is a solid hour away at best, and with construction in between, probably closer to 1.5 hours. I saw an OB the first trimester that delivers at a hospital that is about a half an hour away, or 45 mins. at rush hour. If I'm scheduling a c-section, going back to their practice could be an option.

I am, of course, doing breech tilts, inversion, seeing a chiro (and have been for my whole pregnancy), I've ordered pustilla and I'm seeking an acupuncture/moxibustion treatment. My chiro (whose wife was a DEM and now is a CNM) said to me today, kindly, "You know Carrie, sometimes babies who are 'stuck' in a position like this are there for a reason, like a short cord, etc. It's worth starting to think about what you are going to do if baby doesn't move."

Okay, so now that I've typed all this out, I guess I'm looking for input. Thoughts, ideas, what to consider as I decide what we are doing. First things first, I've got to decide on a ECV, assuming they will do one given my anterior placenta. Thanks for reading all of this!
post #2 of 19
That sounds exactly like my situation with my 3rd baby. I did everything you mention, plus flips in the pool. None of it worked. She was very stubborn and like your dc, was in that position from the earliest ultrasound at 20 weeks. We did transfer care to an OB at 37.5 wks and he did a version (I didn't have an anterior placenta). I was impressed with how careful he was. They had the ultrasound on me the whole time. Though I was sort of a freak show with all the nurses and students who wanted to observe (honestly, it didn't bother me; I'd rather an ECV than a c-section). Anyway, it took him 3 tries and after the second, he said the next try would be it or we'd have to section. It was finally successful.

I have a history of large babies and shoulder dystocia so a breech delivery was never something I was willing to attempt.

Would they be willing to wait to do the ECV until later, like 37 wks or more? That way if they need to section, the baby won't be so early?

BTW, the only thing that did *anything* to make dd move even a little bit transverse was the acupuncture. I went for 2 treatments and every time she moved transverse. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone for a 3rd treatment. Good luck with everything!
post #3 of 19
Does your Chiro perform the Webster technique? (It's a technique used to relieve any unterine constriction on the baby and is NOT ECV) If not, then you might want to find one that does just until after you have the baby.
post #4 of 19
I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if any of this is redundant: Sounds like my situation with my first baby. It also sounds like you're doing the right sorts of things. A few other tools to put into your pocket:
Hypnobabies makes a guided visualization CD to help breech babies turn. I would try doing this in combination with moxibustion and breech tilts.

Contact your local ICAN group NOW to see whether there is a healthcare provider in your area that has experience doing vaginal breech deliveries (if there is, someone within ICAN will almost certainly know who). If you can find someone, get yourself a consultation/appointment with them and discuss the risks and benefits of a vaginal breech delivery. If you feel comfortable with this, it can be a good option, should your baby stay breech at term.

If baby is still breech around 37 weeks, try an ECV. They're uncomfortable, but they do work about 60% of the time - more often if you've had a pregnancy before (b/c there's a bit more room for baby to flip). 37 weeks is a good time to have it b/c baby is small enough to move, but close enough to term that if something happens that necessitates immediate delivery he will be ok. This is rare, but it can happen. When I went in for my ECV they gave it 2 good attempts, but were unable to get his butt un-wedged from my pelvis (he was well engaged). We all agreed that it simply wasn't meant to be. This made me very sad, but I also felt that not pushing it any more was the right thing, because I didn't want him to get too stressed about it.

Even if the ECV fails, continue with the moxibustion, chiropractic, etc. (incidentally, moxibustion is what helped my baby #2 flip to vertex at 31 weeks -- she was breech too, briefly). You never know. If baby remains breech at term and you can't find a provider to deliver vaginally, or if you are not comfortable with a vaginal breech delivery, you will be looking at a c-section. There you have 2 options: schedule or wait until you go into labor. They both have their merits -- as long as baby is a frank breech it is safe to go into labor (very low risk of cord prolapse) so that is an option, and you never know whether baby will flip. Although I have to say, *persistently* breech babies have a very low likelihood of flipping late in the game. The babies that flip are the ones that tend to flip/flop late in the pregnancy anyway.

Best of luck. PM me if I can help at all - I've BTDT with breech babies - my first was a scheduled c-section. My second flipped vertex and was a VBAC.
post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your replies! I also have a history of large babies, not huge, but 8lb 10oz and 8lb 15 oz. and I spent all of vacation flipping over in the lake. Annoys the baby, he/she will move over some, but never more than maybe 10 degrees from side to side! My chiro does do Webster and we've bumped up appointments.

I don't know about the timing of the ECV, or if they'll even offer one. My placenta is anterior and depending on the exact position, I might not even be a candidate for ECV. I'll be scheduling a consult with the back-up OB following my 34 week appt. if baby is still breech, so that's about a week from now, and I'll have a better idea of what they'll offer and a time frame at that point.

I'm a little stuck on this mentally right now, I'm having trouble focusing on baby turning and being positive.
post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemyavery View Post
I'm a little stuck on this mentally right now, I'm having trouble focusing on baby turning and being positive.
I completely sympathize with this. I think the breech issue totally ruined the last 8 weeks of my pregnancy with James. I spent the whole time obsessing about baby positioning and I just felt stressed and disappointed at the end of it all. I honestly think I would have been (mentally) better off finding out at 38 weeks that he was breech - at least I would have enjoyed the last of my pregnancy!

Thinking about diving... I'm pretty sure with baby #2 that she was vertex around 29 weeks, and that she flipped breech when I was on a vacation to Key West. I snorkeled for about an hour, and I think it was while I was relaxed, floating on my belly in the water, looking down at the fish, that she didn't know *which* way was up, and flipped to breech. So rather than simply diving, you might try snorkeling for a while - certainly can't hurt. Depending on how choppy the water is, you may want a little extra bouyancy added to yourself so that you can really completely relax, or your pregnant body may just float for you.

Just an idea... I'm not sure the degree to which placenta placement affects ECV. I do know, from my reading a few years ago, that its success rate is highly operator dependent. That is, some people are better at doing them than others -- so if you can ask around and get someone who has had good luck with ECVs, you'll be better off.

Best of luck and try to enjoy these last few weeks of your pregnancy.
post #7 of 19
It sounds like you're doing everything you possibly can! I'm coming up on 30 weeks pregnant with a baby that's been consistently breech since 17 weeks, so although I still have a good amount of time, breech is on my mind, especially since I really don't think breech vaginal birth is something I'm interested in attempting.

The only real input I have is that I'd really not be comfortable do ECV before 37 weeks. I'd just be too worried about it causing the baby to need to be delivered right away and then being premature.

Good luck mama, hope your little one turns
post #8 of 19
First off, Keep the faith, I'm 34 weeks, and baby moved from breech last night to vertex today, so it really IS possible for babies to move still.

Increase your water intake and swimming/water immersion to increase fluid to baby has more room to move

Try Moxibustion-I know it's some crazy Chinese herb, but it's actually been studied, and actually works! Some times, depending on the Ob doing it, better than ECV.

Obviously keep doing tilts, etc and visualizing baby moving to head down.

Put a bag of frozen peas at the top of the uterus (where the head is) and a warm heating pad towards the bottom (where you want the head to go). Babies are drawn away from cold and towards warm. Also, have hubby or someone talk through a paper towel roll pointed at the lower end of the uterus, or play music through a head phone there, babies are also drawn to sound. Do this all when baby is more active, whether that be typically after you eat, after you lay down at night, etc, them more active they are at the time, the more responsive they will be to you getting them to move.

Frank Breech is the most common breech position, footling is very rare. I don't remember if you stated that Footling breech is the current presentation, but it's usually more uncomfortable for babies to be in closer to term, so if he/she is footling now, that can still change. If he/she is frank or complete breech, chances are they will stay in that breech position if they don't turn to head down.

Much Love to you!!
post #9 of 19
I can totally relate to your concerns. This babe was breech, and I have worries about that since my first c-section (3rd baby) was for a transverse presentation. Of course, OB didn't suggest "trying" anything at all...and I was still bowing down to the almighty OB, so..I never even questioned!

At my near 34 week appt, my baby was frank breech and has an anterior placenta. The baby also measured 36 weeks, so it's not as if I'm dealing with a tiny little thing. My MW recommended pulsatilla for 3 days, (kind of a loading schedule at first) swimming belly down in the pool, birth ball any time I was sitting, and all the exercises. I'm happy to say that at my appt yesterday (35.4) baby not only turned, but turned ROA and engaged!

Since he/she also measured between 39-40 yesterday, all while being very low in my pelvis, this doesn't seem like any small feat. I essentially had a full-term sized baby turn..and I could tell, too!

Hope LO turns for you, as well.
post #10 of 19
I am 34 weeks today, and I am pretty sure my baby JUST finally turned breech. I too have an anterior placent and was told ECV was not an option for me.

Sending you lots of turning babies vibes! Hopefully we both have healthy babies soon!
post #11 of 19
Hugs to you Momma! My baby turned breech when I was 33 weeks and I know those last few weeks were super stressful for me.

Personally, I really think you should wait until 37 weeks to do a version. I had mine done at 37 weeks and the OB who did it told me that if it was a failed attempt, she would let me go a week and then try one more time. If it failed the second time, she would want to go ahead and do a c-section. My OB had a partner doctor to help her. "Four hands are better than two!" It lasted about 90 seconds and I didnt really think it was painful at all.

Here's why I think you should wait until 37 weeks: My water broke exactly 48 hours after my version was complete (but I didnt actually have any contractions for almost 8 hours). The OB did a vaginal exam on the day of my version and I was a little more than 1 cm dialtated. So I hadnt been walking around at 4 for 3 weeks or anything. I feel like when she got turned around, she got herself into position, and she was ready to bolt! You'd hate to have that happen at 35 weeks.

Good luck getting that baby to turn around! We TON of stuff, but I didnt have any luck. Have you tried moxibustion?
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Update! Not an exciting one Baby is still breech, I'll be 35 weeks on Saturday. I'm not shocked, as baby has been in this same position quite stubbornly. Things I have learned since my last post- the OB does wait to 37 weeks for ECV, so I'll be referred at my 36 week visit. I'll most likely have an ultrasound late that week to see if there is a reason baby isn't turning and to see if I'm a candidate for a version. This OB has had out of hospital births herself, and is very well liked and respected by the midwives. In the mean time, acupuncture next week and continued visits to the chiro, and breech tilts, hot/cold packs, etc.

I'm much less panicked now that I've made a few decisions and know a little more. We will attempt an ECV with the OB at or after 37 weeks, the midwives will consider me as a breech birth candidate, provided baby is frank breech. If a c-section becomes necessary (if baby stays footling breech or if there is a cord issue, etc. that comes up on U/S that would preclude vaginal birth) we will go with their back-up OB, rather than coming back closer to home (the birth center is an hour away). The OB is very much of the natural birth mentality, and I can trust and be assured we're on the same wave length. The midwives respect her, and vice-versa, and she will make an effort to be respectful of my wishes in a section, should that happen.

Anyway, thank you all for your input and support! I appreciate it very much and I'm always happy to hear more
post #13 of 19
Glad to see an update and that you've got a plan, even if baby is still butt-down. I'll keep my fingers crossed that baby either flips or that the ECV works (chances are better than average, given that you've been pregnant before). Best of luck - definitely keep us posted!
post #14 of 19
Have you tried handstands and diving in the pool or laying upside down on a hill??? these things worked for me around 36 weeks. Finally the LO flipped and then must have decided to stay like that. Good luck to you.
post #15 of 19
It sounds like you've got some good alternatives. I'm glad your mws found an awesome OB
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanislandmama View Post
Have you tried handstands and diving in the pool or laying upside down on a hill??? these things worked for me around 36 weeks. Finally the LO flipped and then must have decided to stay like that. Good luck to you.
Yep, yep, and yep And floating on my stomach in the water, doing somersaults, breech tilts till I'm too dizzy, etc. Today my chiro said, "I'll be REALLY interested to find out what's going on with the cord." He's suspecting their might be a cord wrap or something that is preventing baby from turning.
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemyavery View Post
Yep, yep, and yep And floating on my stomach in the water, doing somersaults, breech tilts till I'm too dizzy, etc. Today my chiro said, "I'll be REALLY interested to find out what's going on with the cord." He's suspecting their might be a cord wrap or something that is preventing baby from turning.
I'm with your chiro! Is this something the OB thinks he'll be able to see on the u/s?
post #18 of 19
I just wanted to say that I had a chiro turn my breech baby with anterior placenta. Have you considered trying a different one? Just I. Case. Mine did t turn it with the Webster. It was actually a massage he claims to have invented prior to the Webster. Ten minutes. He was pretty surprised too said it usually took a few visits.

I think it is terrific though that you have options for breech delivery. Al,sot impossible where I live.
post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homemademom View Post
I'm with your chiro! Is this something the OB thinks he'll be able to see on the u/s?
According to what I can find online, yes, it's possible to identify umbilical cord problems via U/S. I've got a nagging feeling about this... Something just alerting me to proceed with caution and pay attention. Baby has been SO persistently in this same position, footling breech, with one foot down and one up. Very rarely "tipping" off position but never turning.

Quote:
I just wanted to say that I had a chiro turn my breech baby with anterior placenta. Have you considered trying a different one? Just I. Case. Mine did t turn it with the Webster. It was actually a massage he claims to have invented prior to the Webster. Ten minutes. He was pretty surprised too said it usually took a few visits.
I have thought about seeking out another chiro. I'm doing acupuncture late next week too. I should clarify that my chiro's wife was a DEM, now a CNM, he totally understands and values my goal of natural out of hospital birth. He's been the one person who has said, there might be a reason baby isn't turning, not "baby has plenty of room to turn! no problem here!" I've needed time to consider that possibility, and the possibility of a c-section, not my beautiful water birth. It makes it easier to look ahead and not panic.
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