8yo ds2 needs a palate expander

[blessedwithboys]

so much for breastfeeding and proper palate formation.

his dental age is far behind his chronological age. he's only lost 5 teeth. 3 more are loose but since the adult teeth dont have room to move up they arent loosening the baby teeth enough.

his front two teeth on top are coming in facing each other, it hard to explain...they sort of erupted at an angle so the bottom (ripping surfaces) of each tooth is facing the other.

his palate is sooo narrow, its not even wide enough to fit my fingertip. so the dentist gave me a referral to an orthodontist for a palate spacer so we can get ready to do full braces in a yr or two.

NTS, my sensory avoider is quite upset.

any experiences with this device?

[34me]

There are the type that can come out that are like a retainer and the type that are cemented in. My dd had a crossbite and needed a palate expander when she was 4 (our other option was to grind down her canines or wait - it was easier for us to do it early). Our ortho was awesome with her; she's still his youngest patient ever. It was purple with sparkles because she got to pick and, well she was 4 . We had to turn it one turn (maybe a millimeter) every Saterday night. She could take it out to eat but rarely did, but did rince it off if gross things got stuck. She wore it (I think - she's 16.5 now) for 2 weeks before we did any actual expansion so she could get used to it. Very little, if any discomfort because we moved things slowly and she was growing fairly quickly) When she was 12 she got full braces and has awesome teeth now and only had braces for about 18 months.

No experience with the other kind but a bunch of dd's friends have had them and they don't seem any more difficult. Very few teeth are pulled by orthos in my area. They all seem to enjoy expanding instead.

[Multimomma]

Blessed, I'm with you. My 13 yo is in a palate expander right now, she breastfed only for nearly a year, and is also very sensory defensive. I've got two others lined up

Hers is cemented in, it really was no problem to install (a little glue and slip it on). It sucked for about 30 seconds when they did the impression for it, mouth full of silly putty consistency stuff that had to harden, but they made it fun and fast. We had to turn it every day, about the same time. She was very uncomfortable with it, but almost everyone I know who's had one has been. We did some massaging and tylenol at bed time.

However, she had to have three teeth removed just to do that (a baby, an adult, and an impacted adult), so I think you're a step ahead Right now we're between sessions, it's still installed to keep her palate from slipping back. She's fine with it, in fact loves to make sucking noises with it.

Good luck, it really will make other things easier.

[blessedwithboys]

Thanks for replying!

I think we are going to do the cemented in type so that he can't ask me to remove it or take it out himself at school...or daddy's house...

[JaneS]

It's also nutritionally related, not just breastfeeding that is a factor. See the link in my sig: WAPF fed.

The palate gets its start from the nutrients in the mother's body, and also is effected by nutrients in the child's diet as well as their ability to actually absorb them. One thing that is not discussed enough IMO is that nutrients in breastmilk does vary according to the mother's diet.

Price found that lots of fat soluble vitamins in traditional people's diet lead to the development of wide palates and straight teeth. He was able to track over a decade, in many different countries and ethnicities... when family members moved to the city and ate modern foods (white flour, white sugar etc.) the palates of subsequent children narrowed which proved it wasn't genetically driven. And cavities formed where there were none before, among other body changes.

We are doing chiropractic right now to help widen palate. I did see a great deal of palate change from adding cod liver oil and other fat soluble vitamins for past 5 years, but my DS still has a slight cross bit on one side. He can be a mouth breather at times... this also narrows the palate by not allowing the constant pressure of a closed mouth with tongue pressed up to help flatten and widen upper palate.

[A&A]

Please check out the Damon system of orthodontics:

http://www.damonbraces.com/q08.php

They may save your son the need for an expander.

(No, I don't work for them. My dd had Damon braces, though.)

[34me]

Interesting. Those are the braces my dd wound up wearing 8 years after her expander. And my ds has on now......

[VillageMom6]

My friend has studied Price's research and followed his suggestions. The photos in his book certainly are compelling but I just can't buy into his theories.

All of my friend's children need orthodontic work (including palate expanders) as do all of my children. I think it's genetic.

My eldest child is out of orthodontia and now has beautiful teeth. My second child is in braces and I can tell they are doing wonderful work for her. My fourth child gets a palate expander on Tuesday.

He's not thrilled, either. He's bummed about having to give up certain treats, like super chewy things.

Good luck to your son!

[JaneS]

Price's research has been done according to the scientific method, it's not theory. He was the head of research for the American Dental Association of his time. He spent a decade travelling the world and visiting hundreds of different ethnic groups and documenting his findings. You don't have to buy in at all but I just want to make his methods clear.

All of us now in modern times are products of our mother's bodies eating modern foods, so something that looks genetic on the surface may indeed have another cause. It's virtually impossible now to study the same family with older children produced from a mother eating traditional foods and then later the same parents producing younger children born a product of eating modern foods, that is why Price's research is so unique.

[Multimomma]

It's virtually impossible now to study the same family with older children produced from a mother eating traditional foods and then later the same parents producing younger children born a product of eating modern foods, that is why Price's research is so unique.

So you're saying that Price has research showing that within the same family, two different eating styles creates two different palates? That's what I'm reading from the bolded.

[AlexisT]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Price's research has been done according to the scientific method, it's not theory. He was the head of research for the American Dental Association of his time. He spent a decade travelling the world and visiting hundreds of different ethnic groups and documenting his findings. You don't have to buy in at all but I just want to make his methods clear.

This is misleading at best, though I know Wikipedia claims it. From westonaprice.org:

Was Weston Price a research director for the ADA?

A. Price was head of research for the National Dental Association, which was eclipsed by the ADA when it was formed. ADA promoted fluoride and amalgams and the NDA refused to do this.

Weston Price also later got into trouble with the ADA for his controversial (and unproven) claims about root canals as the source of disease.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Multimomma

So you're saying that Price has research showing that within the same family, two different eating styles creates two different palates? That's what I'm reading from the bolded.

Yes, see his book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration"

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by AlexisT

This is misleading at best, though I know Wikipedia claims it. From westonaprice.org:

I think it's misleading at worst. At best, it was trying to explain the situation in terms that we would understand today.

I wasn't trying to be evasive ... he was the head of research for the major dental association of his time. The ADA was formed later and as you quoted, certainly took us in the wrong direction for dental and health care.

Originally Posted by AlexisT

Weston Price also later got into trouble with the ADA for his controversial (and unproven) claims about root canals as the source of disease.

As I said, the ADA clearly went in the wrong direction, and like any mainstream medical association today, it became very political and corporate. So saying Price got in trouble with the ADA is like saying that other valid alternative therapies like homeopathy is frowned upon by the current mainstream medical organizations.

If you read about it, Price's research on root canals is fascinating and has very valid, scientific points. There is now a growing number of dentists who will not do root canals at all because they cause focal infections and cavitations. My dentist is one of them.

The underlying reason is that it is simply not possible to "sterilize" the huge amounts of tubules under the gums by attempting to clean some of them out, and sealing them off with a packing material, and giving antibiotics. Infections will develop in time, and depending on your health, can either be local or systemic, and can lead to other diseases.

See Dr. George Meinig's modern book about Price's research:

Root Canal Cover Up
http://mizar5.com/coverup.htm

[blessedwithboys]

Hi, OP here!

Ds got his palate expander last week. I absolutely love the orthodontist I found. I'm driving 20 miles out of my way to take him there. She only uses Damon self-ligating braces and the office rarely does palate expanders, but even I can see that his palate is really, really narrow. Our long-time family dentist also voted in favor of the expander, so I went ahead and decided to do it.

We have done 6 turns so far, one each day, and ds hasn't had any pain at all. He says he feels pressure in his nose, but it doesn't hurt him at all. It's 21 turns and then 6-9 months of waiting for the bone to fill in.

The only problem so far is mine...I have been almost crying over ds's speech. The poor baby sounds so terrible, but he isn't shy at all and already gave an oral presentation in front of his whole class. I don't let him see me upset, of course.

So thanks for all the responses. I'll post again if anythign significant happens.

[gwen's mom]

My DD#1 got hers in at 7 years, 8 months and it just came out in September, at 8 years, 2 months and she went straight into upper braces. She will have them for 6 months or so. She will need them again as a teenager. She had no issues with the expander and braces are going well as well.

I did a great deal of research before I took her to an ortho. and there seems to be two schools of thought on braces-if kids get them on before 10 y.o. they will probably need them again later. If they are teenagers when they get them on they will need them only once but for a longer time period. What sealed our decision was that the ortho said that a palate expander could only be done until a child was 10 or so, after which the palate is permanently fused.

[blessedwithboys]

So your dd had the PE for 6 mos? We were told 6-9 mos. How do they know when the bone has filled in? Do they do an xray or just take a guess?

[gwen's mom]

In DD's case the ortho looked at the palate, felt it and knew it had filled in. Even my untrained eyes could tell that there was a significant change in the palate from the time we stopped turning the PE to the time the PE was ready to come out.

I can not stress enough how important it is to find the right ortho. When I was growing up my parents could not afford braces so when I was 18 I paid for them myself. I was an orthodontic nightmare...overcrowding, overbite, large teeth, damage from grinding, jaw development issues. I was told by 2 independent dentists that if I didn't have braces I would loose my bottom front teeth due to overcrowding. I interviewed several orthodontists and settled on a doctor who several of my friends had gone to. I was told I needed 4 molars extracted so there was room to work in my mouth. I had braces on for four years through college and then for another 6 months a few years later. I wore my retainer religiously but I have still had shifting.

I now live in another part of the country so I started researching orthos to possibly get myself a new retainer. I met with a internationally acclaimed ortho (who we ultimately took DD to) and he pointed out the multiple mistakes my former ortho made such as pulling my molars, not taking into account my jaw alignment issues, pulling my teeth too close to the gum line so as to create gum deterioration issues now. Basically I need braces again, which with DD in braces, we just can't afford.

But I feel great that we found someone so good for DD. He does not believe in pulling teeth, he is gentle and patient and looks at teeth alignment as part of overall skull health. He uses a cone beam CT to evaluate patient needs, one of few othos in the country doing so. CBCT is the “gold standard” for evaluating jaw joints, airways and screening for pathology. CBCT gives 2 and 3 dimensional images of all of the structures. It also allows him to view structures that would otherwise not be as visible with conventional radiography. CBCT accurately show him the position of the ball in the socket, joint space and all of the articulating surfaces. He can tell if there has been a change in shape of any of the components of the jaw joints and very specifically if there is any beginning changes that he can address before there is a major problem. In addition, if there is a more significant problem, the more accurate the images of the jaw joints, the most appropriate treatment modalities may then be implemented. For the record, I don't work in dentistry but I am passionate about its impact on quality of life.

[blessedwithboys]

WRT extractions...both our dentist and the ortho want 7 teeth pulled, all baby teeth. Two or three are very, very loose, but not loose enought to pull out with floss. They bleed every time we brush and food gets stuck up underneath.

Still, I feel hesitant to pull teeth. Nevermind that it's another grand and I've already paid $2600 cash, plus the trauma to my sensititve ds of having needles in his mouth again (our dentist will do them with local instead of me having to go to a surgeon for sedation).

Is it possible to do all we need to do without pulling? Maybe I wouldn't mind the 2 or 3 simple extractions, but I'd really like to avoid pulling the 4 that are rock solid...

[gwen's mom]

Of course I can not speculate on your DC's case but I had a long talk with our ortho about pulling and he feels strongly that baby teeth stay in place for a reason and he needs to be patient and respect that.

Have you consulted with more than one ortho?

[mtm]

blessed, we are headed the expander route with my 8 year and I wondered about your speech comment. What is the impact on his speech?