Zoos

[Turquesa]

I t seems like we talk a lot about food in this forum, and I don't have a problem with that. But I had an animal ethics question for my fellow veg*ns. I'm ethically wrestling with the idea of zoos. DDs play group likes to meet at the zoo frequently, and so far we've been going with them.

Are you totally against zoos? Are you for them provided that there are certain conditions (and, if so, what conditions)? I heard a vegetarian zoo employee on NPR the other day who thinks that they're doing great things for animals, but I also know PETA's stance on the issue. Thoughts? I'd like to hear everybody out so that I can decide what's right...

[catnip]

I feel like it depends a lot on the place. I really like the Folsom Zoo Sanctuary, but am less comfortable with the Sacramento Zoo. And I don't really have a problem with aquariums - we regularly visit the Monterey Bay Aquarium and the Aquarium of the Pacific.

[Sayward]

One of the reasons I always try to refer to myself as veg*n as opposed to vegan . . .

I love zoos. Growing up, we went to the zoo every single Friday and had a picnic there (with chocolate chip cookies!). Every. Single. Week. until we moved when I was 5. I totally think it's part of the reason I've always loved and respected and been so interested in animals, and I cannot *wait* to do it with my Little.

We'll be eating vegan, probably raw, chocolate chip cookies of course!

[Sayward]

Also, one of my closest friends has been vegan for 12 years and plans to take her kid/s to the zoo.

This is a really interesting topic and I'm super curious to see what people say. Thanks for posting it!

[veronicam]

I'm not trying to be rude, just inquiring......but how is forcibly holding this animals captive in cages away from their natural habitat different or more humane than impregnanting cows and keeping them lactating?

[catnip]

Well, in the case of the Folsom Zoo, the animals there are all rehabbed wildlife that can't be released, confiscated exotic pets removed from places where they were being maltreated, former lab animals, 'problem' bears and cougars, or other animals that would have otherwise been killed. They do not trade, buy, or breed animals there. They work very hard to educate the public about responsible coexistence with other species. Would it be better to euthanize the one-winged hawk, the blind owl, the tiger that spent her first year in a 3x3 foot cage, or the three-legged bobcat? Or to keep them in a safe, peaceful place where they have enough to eat, medical care and places to hide from visitors if they choose? I think that it's a fairly nice alternative, myself.

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by veronicam

I'm not trying to be rude, just inquiring......but how is forcibly holding this animals captive in cages away from their natural habitat different or more humane than impregnanting cows and keeping them lactating?

You're clearly feeling very defensive. I'm sorry if I contributed to that.

[Jaxinator]

I don't think she sounded defensive, I was wondering the same thing. But Catnip cleared that up.
The Folsom Zoo sounds like a good thing, I think I'm going to research specific zoos before I take my son to any more.

[catnip]

I really feel that if all zoos operated like our favorite, so many animals that would otherwise be destroyed could be saved. They don't have the funding to save all the animals that are in need, and yeah, a true abolitionist vegan might feel that the Folsom Zoo is a fate worse than death, but I don't.

[veronicam]

Originally Posted by Sayward

You're clearly feeling very defensive. I'm sorry if I contributed to that.

Actually I am not feeling defensive at all. I am inquiring about two contradicting posts you have made on this forum and another. I am trying to understand your point of view. Please explain.

I am quoting a previous post made by you, Sayward, about dairy cows:
"Just like human slavery is never okay under any circumstances, vegans believe that animal slavery is never okay under any circumstances. And I don't think there's any debate about whether these animals are slaves - they are confined for the purpose of human profit. Period."

Wouldn't most zoos be considered as animal slavery?

[veronicam]

Catnip, I think this zoo you are talking about sounds wonderful. Unfotunatley, the majority of zoos aren't like this, which is unfortunate.

Thank you Jaxinator for understanding where I am speaking from and realizing that I am not being defensive (I have no reason to be) and that it is an actual inquiry.

[somegirl99]

I am ok with rescue sanctuaries but I avoid zoos, they make me sad for the animals.

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by veronicam

Actually I am not feeling defensive at all. I am inquiring about two contradicting posts you have made on this forum and another. I am trying to understand your point of view. Please explain.

I am quoting a previous post made by you, Sayward, about dairy cows:
"Just like human slavery is never okay under any circumstances, vegans believe that animal slavery is never okay under any circumstances. And I don't think there's any debate about whether these animals are slaves - they are confined for the purpose of human profit. Period."

Wouldn't most zoos be considered as animal slavery?

Okay, I'm gonna try to explain what I think is going on. But honestly, I have absolutely *zero* interest in playing 'catch the vegan', so I'm not going to get into a big to-do here.

As I said in my post in this thread, the *whole* reason I try not to call myself vegan is to avoid this - people trying to play 'vegan police' all over the internet. I'm not interested in the nitpicking so I'm happy to refer to myself as veg*n.

Anyway, I thought I was clear in the other thread that I was presenting 'the vegan argument' . . . that is to say, not necessarily my personal opinion. Which is why I used harsh language and why I apologized for it. I was trying to frame it as an anti-speciesist person would.

So yeah, I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

Yes, I'm conflicted about zoos. It's something I'm torn on (there are a lot of ambiguities in animal rights, for instance being against the commodification of animals, and yet 'owning' pets).

I'd love to talk about the difficulties in navigating an idealist philosophy in an imperfect world. That's why I was excited about this thread. But, I am not into 'catch-ya' games or in-fighting.

Like I said, I really am sorry if I offended you in the other thread.


.

[catnip]

Another thing that can lead to conflicting feelings about zoos is that some of them do important work towards preserving endangered species - the California Condor, for example, might well be extinct without the captive breeding programs that the San Diego Zoo facilitated.

On the flipside, even the most humane sanctuaries are feeding other animals to any carnivores they have in captivity, and what gives the cougar more of a right to live than its dinner? Now, back to my much-lauded Folsom Zoo, they do feed fresh roadkill to their carnivores when they can get it, but that isn't all the animals there eat.

I'll admit that I went to the Sacramento Zoo, which is a very mainstream zoo, when they had a litter of tiger kittens, because, hello! Kittens! It was probably a hypocritical thing to do, but ... KITTENS! But in general, I drive the extra half-hour up to Folsom, rather than taking my daughter to the much closer Sacramento one.

[veronicam]

Originally Posted by Sayward

Okay, I'm gonna try to explain what I think is going on. But honestly, I have absolutely *zero* interest in playing 'catch the vegan', so I'm not going to get into a big to-do here.

As I said in my post in this thread, the *whole* reason I try not to call myself vegan is to avoid this - people trying to play 'vegan police' all over the internet. I'm not interested in the nitpicking so I'm happy to refer to myself as veg*n.

Anyway, I thought I was clear in the other thread that I was presenting 'the vegan argument' . . . that is to say, not necessarily my personal opinion. Which is why I used harsh language and why I apologized for it. I was trying to frame it as an anti-speciesist person would.

So yeah, I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

Yes, I'm conflicted about zoos. It's something I'm torn on (there are a lot of ambiguities in animal rights, for instance being against the commodification of animals, and yet 'owning' pets).

I'd love to talk about the difficulties in navigating an idealist philosophy in an imperfect world. That's why I was excited about this thread. But, I am not into 'catch-ya' games or in-fighting.

Like I said, I really am sorry if I offended you in the other thread.


.

You didn't offend me in the other thread. I understand now that it was not your opinion you were stating, but rather the vegan argument. I think we have both been misunderstanding one another in these posts, Sayward.

Again, in these forums, it is very hard not to come across as rude, etc., because of the fact that you can't actually hear someone saying these things with the correct intonation, but I was really just trying to understand where you were coming from. I'm not into "catch-ya" games either. But I am the type of person that will ask questions if I am not fully understanding something--and that is exactly what I did.

Thank you for clarifying things. That's all I was looking for.

[ShadowMoon]

I am a vegan and I'm also a zookeeper. I've worked in two zoos, both accredited by the AZA, ( http://www.aza.org/). The first was a large zoo and the one I work for now is very small.

I have struggled with my profession for a long time. I have very recently decided that morally, i can't stay in this field forever. I would much rather work for a sanctuary or animal rescue facility where I can utilize my skills and knowledge for a good cause.

All zoos are a business that must turn a profit. And as long as money is involved, animal care and welfare may not always come first. that's not to say the animals aren't treated well. Almost everyone that works directly with them cares deeply about their care and health. But animals are still bred so that there are babies for people to see, shuffled around from zoo to zoo without much thought of what that move might do to their psyche, etc. Many are kept in too small of an exhibit or holding area, (AZA and USDA standards for minimum required space are not that great).

Some AZA zoos do great conservation work but not all do. Millions of dollars are spent on exhibits, etc instead of on these projects where that much money would do wonders. And while some people will take something meaningful with them as they leave the zoo, most are there simply for entertainment purposes. Also, 99% of captive breeding in zoos is done simply to generate more animals for zoos. (We have SSP, or a Species Survival Plan for all of our endangered animals for this exact reason). Hardly any are reintroduced into the wild, (those that are would not normally be on public display).

Also, AZA inspects an accredited facility every 5 years. They are not a regulatory organization and can not enforce any of their ideals. They can threaten to pull accreditation or put you on probation but they very rarely will. USDA inspects a facility once a year and most inspectors do not have animal husbandry training or knowledge. So even though a zoo may be AZA accredited, it doesn't mean all that much. (There are also zoos that are doing great things but refuse to be accredited by the AZA because they either disagree with their philosophy or cannot afford the HUGE price tag that comes with the association).

Whew! Sorry for the long post but I struggle with this every. single. day.
Peace~

[petey44]

Thanks for the insider info, ShadowMoon! Very helpful

[academama]

Thanks for that info, ShadowMoon--I'm not even vegetarian and this is something I think about often. I want to love zoos that do a good job of providing nice habitats for the animals, but of course I don't have enough info to know for sure how well those habitats provide good quality of life.

A poor zoo is one of the most depressing things on the planet IMO.

[cocoanib]

Originally Posted by veronicam

I'm not trying to be rude, just inquiring......but how is forcibly holding this animals captive in cages away from their natural habitat different or more humane than impregnanting cows and keeping them lactating?

Thanx for sharing that shadowmoon.
I don't visit and won't be taking my kids to zoos, circuses or the like.
Sanctuarys or animal rescue facilitys are different than zoos IMO.

[vegemamato]

we've been to the zoo in Portland only a few times (3 or 4 visits) and I'm not planning to go again (unless it was for a demonstration or something). personally, I am horrified by the treatment of these animals and I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting them. We're trying to plan a trip to a farm sanctuary though, where we will be camping and volunteering.

Sorry if I seemed like a downer- just giving my opinion