Alternative living and CPS

[laohaire]

I am pretty sure I saw a thread on this exact subject a while back but nothing turns up in search.

DH and I are seriously considering taking the leap and getting a yurt. DH was pretty much 100% ready to go (I'm still waffling myself) but the whole CPS thing occured to him.

He and I are in agreement that there is NOTHING worth losing our precious daughter. But I am trying to figure out the difference between "well, it's just one of those risks of life like, say, riding in a car" versus "you are definitely risking having a target painted on your family if you do this."

Any perspective?

I believe one major factor is vindicitive people - somebody has to report you for you to be on the radar at all. While neither my parents nor my in-laws are crunchy people, I have 100% trust in them that they would not only not call CPS on us, but actually be pretty supportive of our lifestyle. I can't think of a single person that knows us who I would have any concerns about.

Here are the things we are doing right now in our regular home, that would also transfer to the new setup:

- We cosleep (DD is nearly 5)
- Homeschool. Hell, we probably unschool, to boot.
- Stopped vaccinating a while back. She did have quite a few vaccines, but no MMR, varicella, etc.
- 1 VOIP telephone and 1 "emergency" cell phone. No landline.
- I have a "legitimate" job working for a company (that I do not own), from home. I get health insurance for the whole family, a salary, etc. DH works for himself, which I understand can be considered "illegitimate" by CPS. Even though Donald Trump and Warren Buffet are self-employed. If it matters, we are completely honest on our taxes and everything like that. Everything is clean and upfront.
- We are not on any social services at all (unless you count my small tax break for being legally blind).
- We have a car. A very respectable looking, reasonably recent year station wagon in excellent condition.

And here are the things that would add to the mix if we took the leap:

- Live in a yurt
- We would have full electricity of some sort, not sure yet whether on-grid or off-grid. But we would be powering lights, computers, refrigerator, washing machine. No kerosene lamps.
- We would have a wood stove for heat. From what I read, it will probably be toastier in the yurt than it is in our house in winter. (We keep thermostat at 60F here.) On the other hand, I think I heard CPS doesn't like wood stoves.
- A biggie: I'd rather compost humanure than be hooked up to septic (for both $$ and environmental reasons). If it's between septic and my daughter, though, well I shouldn't even have to tell you what I'd choose.

What would happen if CPS came sniffing around and we just "disappeared"? Say, to another country that we could pre-emptively get citizenship to? Or at least another state?

Or, maybe, what if CPS came sniffing around and we just rolled over and said "sure, we'll just sell this land and buy a standard house right now." I mean, can you just "undo" the choice? "Oh, you caught me, now we'll behave"?

I feel like I'm being stupid. I hate this. We are thinking about living a meaningful and very comfortable life. Warm, with a beautiful and clean home. Connected to our community, continuing to go the library, YMCA, local parks and playgrounds, developing friendships with other families. And apparently they could take our beautiful daughter away from us.

I've read that an MDC mother had a child taken away from her and placed into foster care, and that child died (was murdered) in foster care

Life would be OVER for me and DH if someone took our daughter away from us.

But we have only one life and we are thinking this is the way we want to live. If CPS is a small fear, we shouldn't let it rule, right?

Also, how is the CPS (equivelent) culture in Canada? If it's a lot better, maybe Canada would be the answer. I am very sure we could immigrate, we already have jobs and would keep them (and not take any Canadian jobs away from anyone), we have college degrees (which I read they care about), etc.

[mamadelbosque]

Honestly, nothing you've written about sounds the least bit cps-worthy. Millions of people heat with wood stoves - we have for the last 30 yrs (I'm 26 - we live in the house I grew up in). Millions more homeschool and co-sleep. Hell, I even know one family that doesn't have running water!! And they homeschool. Another family home schools and lives in their barn. Really and truelly... I think your being *way* over paranoid.

[Marsupialmom]

I don't see any issues that would automatically send warning signs off.

The human composting is becoming more and used. My girl's girl scout camp have been using them for some time.

[laohaire]

Well, I may be overparanoid but it's not just something I dreamed up on my own. It's a concern because I have read quite a few incidents (many right here on MDC) involving CPS specifically for leading an alternative lifestyle.

My husband read about an RV family that had their kids taken away.

I think what we're planning to do is perfectly sane and conducive to an outstanding childhood. But I also know that CPS frowns on co-sleeping and not vaccinating. While I know homeschooling is perfectly legal and not a cause for report to CPS, if we landed on the radar with an unsympathetic worker, that could be just another problem to deal with (especially since we don't do "school at home" but more unschooling).

I think most social workers are going to think no sewer is absolutely insane, though I am perfectly comfortable with the safety and sanitation of humanure composting (here's three cheers for The Humanure Handbook).

I think running water is a requirement, but we would have that. It's not certain if we'll have running hot water or not, I think probably in the future but not necessarily right away. We would have hot water to bathe with, though.

Anyway, you guys are telling me what I want to hear - but I think others on MDC can attest that I'm not overparanoid to be asking this question.

[lach]

I can't think of anything you said that raises any sort of alarm bells. Heck, there was that MDC mom who had a whole New York Times article written about how she lives in a yurt with her husband and infant son in Alaska. So far as I know, she still has her child.

Unless there's a lot you're not telling us, honestly I can't really see why you're concerned.

[laohaire]

No, I covered the bases. We also don't do anything illegal, no drugs, nothing like that.

Of course Alaska is a different state - we're in Massachusetts. Alaska is used to people who do their own thing. Massachusetts is NOT a pioneer state, shall we say. However, we might not stay in MA (though honestly it's my preference right now... but maybe not a realistic one).

I like these responses very much though.

[1stimestar]

Yes, it depends on where you live. We live in a waterless cabin and have an outhouse. Then again, even being in the second largest city in the state, 20% of our population lives waterless. Call your county health dept. and ask them.

[laohaire]

Thank you all. I also did a Google search for "yurt cps" and, wow, this thread comes up first (lol). Then for the next 19 results, none of them describe anything that I feared. The acronym CPS stands for various things. One page simply describes a yurt, and then SEPERATELY a case involving CPS (but not alternative living, that I could see), so they were not related.

I would think that even if only, say, 5% of yurt-dwellers got harrassed, I would have gotten a few hits among the first 20 Google results. But I didn't.

DH feels a lot better about it. He also discovered a very unfortunate thing which would be to our advantage. There is some conspiracy theory out there that CPS profits from taking your kids away (that they get government grants for each child outplacement). I don't know at all if it's true or not, but assuming it's true, they seem to target low-income people who can't fight back by hiring attorneys. If true, this is an absolute travesty. But it doesn't apply to us, we'd hire an attorney in a New York minute, even if we had to go into hock to do it. But the other thing is that we'd naturally have more money if we did this, because we'll be spending less money but earning the same.

So that issue (of many we're looking into!) seems resolved, thanks.

[Marsupialmom]

Personally I would look into dropping a well and the humane compost (environmental toilets) first. I would want to ensure proper distance (if need be) just in case. Also, if you drop the well first it will make your life so much more easier and less on the "edge".

Most settlers and migrant people put water as one of the hight priorities (usually).

[laohaire]

Assuming we're staying in this community, I am actually planning on having running city water, believe it or not. I don't know the cost but I believe it's do-able. We've only looked at one property so far but it's at the end of a residential street. (Though plenty of woods and privacy as well). The city water runs up the road to the property's edge. I know we have to shell out some $ (no idea how much, but a well would be $ anyway) but I was thinking of just having plain city running water.

The toilet system I am hoping to have is not a composting toilet per se (composting occurs inside the toilet receptacle) but the humanure composting method. It involves a bucket system (covered with sawdust, apparently it's odor-free if done right) and then you empty the buckets into a proper compost heap with plenty of straw and other materials including the usual food scraps and such. To be safe, I would line the bottom of the heap with a tarp and position it to drain into a large bucket, and just dump the contents of the bucket back into the pile every now and then so there's no leaching at all (though apparently leaching is not usually a problem anyway - I'm just playing it safe). We'd have 2 piles so each pile can age a full year to finish.

Having read The Humanure Handbook, I am personally convinced of its safety and effectiveness (and convinced it's actually extremely responsible) but I do see how some town official will probably instinctively go "no way." Dunno how we can get around that. We could do it here in our house because we already are on sewer. Nobody would notice if we stopped using it, lol. (Well, of course we'd still use it for graywater). But it may be a problem if we need any official blessing from the town. And getting city water might naturally lead to that, unfortunately. And I really would rather not shell out $$$$ for a sewer hookup that we don't want to use anyway.

So much to think about.

[laohaire]

So, yeah, I do consider water the highest priority after, you know, a roof and heat. I imagined roughing it with water and found I honestly don't want to, and I think that's ok. (I guess I'd sort of be roughing it anyway since we probably won't have running hot water, though of course we'll have heated stove water).

Also, I told my DH that I'm bringing my (HE) washing machine I have priorities I will crap in a bucket, no problem, but I want the washing machine.

I dry on a clothesline but have a dryer too, and will probably even bring that. The washing machine and dryer are stackable, so why not. Make our lives much easier in winter and during long rainy weeks.

Of course this is all going off topic from my original question which I am satisfied with. I'll be starting a new thread for book rec's for wood management.

[kimmom]

..

[annethcz]

I honestly think you're going to HAVE to have a septic tank or hook up to city sewer. MA is one of the more highly regulated states, and there are building codes you'll have to adhere to. If you're running a HE washer, for example, the greywater is going to have to go *somewhere* and I would be astonished if the city would let you just dump it onto the ground. I'd suggest looking into the codes in the area before making final plans or before setting your budget.

[kimmom]

I agree to look into the code where you are.. We are building our cob home to BC building code because we are in a visible area and also we feel that more people need to push the envelopes of the building code to make it easier for everyone to build more sustainable homes.. We are in an area where they are very open to alternative stuff and are actually rewriting the building code to be more environmentally friendly and greywater is a part of that.. That being said in order to have a "legal" composting toilet you need to have a septic system on your land OR a VERY expensive engineered wetlands construction.. One reasoning is if you ever go to sell your home the future owner can hook into the system if they do not want to compost. As far as greywater once you have a septic in place you are free to do what you want BUT there are a number of things you do need to know about greywater and how to safely handle it for your own protection.. Our system is a subsurface mulch basin that
PM me if you want more info at all

[laohaire]

Originally Posted by kimmom

Thought I would add my 2 cents
We too live an alternative lifestyle we are in our 5th wheel with our 4 kids while we are building our cob home, which will be done in 4 months! We did have CPS called on us in Feb BECAUSE of our humanure composting toilet.. NO JOKE here.. It was awful but all turned out fine. We educated them on humanure and composting toilets.. Had to give them a large stack of info on it including handouts and bacterial content of thermophilic pile.. All that being said we have installed a septic system for our new home and will not be using a composting toilet once in the house. We too homeschool and were asked about that, we are in Canada, it is legal here, we are part of a program and I told them that..It was a vendictive act from someone who does not know us well and we had a very good case worker. She came through our place, talked to us, we showed them house plans and info on our toilet system then the case was closed.. Mind you it is ALOT harder to trust who you tell things too.. We have an amazing amount of support and people who think what we are doing is amazing but there are still many many people who think it is more normal for both parents to work, have children in daycare, live in a huge home they can't afford etc.. Not everyone understands the choices we make. So we keep people on a "need to know" basis now.. Good luck in your journey and no I didn't think you are overparanoid at all

Oy!! But thank you for contributing your experience.

Originally Posted by annethcz

I honestly think you're going to HAVE to have a septic tank or hook up to city sewer. MA is one of the more highly regulated states, and there are building codes you'll have to adhere to. If you're running a HE washer, for example, the greywater is going to have to go *somewhere* and I would be astonished if the city would let you just dump it onto the ground. I'd suggest looking into the codes in the area before making final plans or before setting your budget.

Well, obviously we're not just going to "dump" graywater "wherever." The whole point is to lessen our footprint, not increase it. We would build a proper graywater system with the proper plant material and so on. A rockbed and other devices to keep mosquitos from breeding. No food material going it it (all goes in the compost bin) or cleaners or soaps that won't properly degrade. Give me some credit, here, these are researched decisions - like homebirth, I'm not just gonna pretend I'm not pregnant and birth in a toilet or anything

However, it is true that Massachusetts is not like Alaska, and we're considering going over the border to Vermont for a few reasons. There is no real reason (not safety, not environment, not anything) why we couldn't compost humanure or have a good graywater system. The only reason would be that some people think there's only one way to do things, and that's the way that everyone does it - even if it's causing greater and greater damage.

Yes, of course looking at building codes is a very early step. Was just talking about CPS here, I didn't write out the whole building plan since it's not relevant.

Originally Posted by kimmom

That being said in order to have a "legal" composting toilet you need to have a septic system on your land OR a VERY expensive engineered wetlands construction.. One reasoning is if you ever go to sell your home the future owner can hook into the system if they do not want to compost.

We don't want a composting toilet, so a septic or sewer is not part of the plan, and while a properly engineered wetlands system is definitely needed for the sink and bath and washer, I haven't had any information that would suggest it would cost anything close to hookup to sewer would be (I haven't looked into the cost of a septic system but it just seems unnecessary - unless I had information that suggested that our family would be at stake otherwise).

I don't think it's realistic to consider future property values of a yurt. If we sell the land and go back to house living, I doubt anyone will be interested in buying the yurt as part of the property. Maybe we'd Craigslist the yurt or something. The land will just be land, and they'll just have to deal with septic or whatever they want themselves, I don't see the need for me to do that. Just as another perspective, if that were the case, then the land we buy should already have septic, right?

As far as greywater once you have a septic in place you are free to do what you want BUT there are a number of things you do need to know about greywater and how to safely handle it for your own protection.. Our system is a subsurface mulch basin that
PM me if you want more info at all

I have not gone as far as to actually choose a design, but I've read through different options. I'm expecting to pay a couple thousand dollars to set it up. But that's for down the road, unless someone has some information about how a proper graywater system would alarm CPS.

[Juvysen]

I know here in NY each house needs to start out with either a septic system or sewer w/a toilet hooked up to it... at least in the rural town we were looking at building a house in... I would bet MA doesn't run too different... I know some people unhook their toilet in favor of a composting one later, though...

[laohaire]

Yeah, but we're not building a house - it's a yurt. A glorified tent. Legally considered a temporary structure in many (most?) locales.

I'll deal with the local codes, I have a contractor, I am just interested in the CPS angle.

[peainthepod]

I don't think you're being paranoid and I think it really depends on the state you're living in. I just moved to a Western Rocky Mountain state where anyone who lives outside of town has well water and septic or composting toilets, lots of people build non-traditional homes (cob buildings, yurts, Earthships, etc.), and some people even have dirt floors...on purpose! Homeschooling, homebirthing, alternative medicine, and vaccine refusal are very common choices here and what you've described wouldn't make anyone think twice. In fact, these qualities inspired our move.

But in Massachusetts I wouldn't be at all surprised if some busybody decided your choices were "abusive" and reported you to the state authorities. I'm not trying to scare you but we have family in Mass. and just came from NY and from what I've seen, the governments in those states are scarily intrusive. If you can get to Vermont (or New Hampshire?), do it! I think you'll feel much safer and will be able to enjoy a much better quality of life (and enjoy a lower cost of living) in a state where people are more likely to mind their own business and not run crying to the authorities every time someone makes a choice they don't agree with.

[1stimestar]

Wait, wasn't it Mass. that was jailing parents for not vaccinating? Only medical exemptions allowed. Yea, I wouldn't trust them to make any type of reasonable judgments.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by 1stimestar

Wait, wasn't it Mass. that was jailing parents for not vaccinating? Only medical exemptions allowed. Yea, I wouldn't trust them to make any type of reasonable judgments.

that was maryland, I think (the rounding up of school children's parents and threatening them with jailtime was, at least), but MA was moving into a position to have some very strict enforcing of the swine flu vax...