Are we over-reacting?

[NYCVeg]

Dd (4) has been in her current nursery school/day care for a year. Since last spring, she's been having problems with a particularly physically impulsive boy in her class. There was a lot of pushing, punching, etc. (that is, he was doing the pushing and punching--she's not a perfect kid, but she doesn't generally express frustration physically). There was a "major" incident in the sandbox, when the boy hit her in the face with a dump trunk. She had a big cut just above her eye. If it had been an inch lower...

The teachers kept the two apart for the rest of the year, and at the end of June the whole class moved to a new, pre-K classroom. A few days the boy bit my child on the stomach--quite hard, every tooth broke the skin. The teachers (new ones, who didn't know all the history) report that it happened incredibly fast and dd did nothing to provoke him.

We've met with the director, and we've come to understand that the boy's parents don't care at all when/if he's physical with other kids. The school is doing their best to address it by having a teacher "shadow" the boy at all times, but anything they tell him gets no reinforcement at home. The parents have no interest in meeting with us or the school to try to resolve the situation. This being the case, we feel that the likelihood of another incident is pretty high, no matter closely he's being watched.

We're considering switching dd to another class. She knows the kids in the other pre-K classes and, although she gets along with the kids in her own class (with the exception of this boy and one other), she has no "special friend" that she'd be leaving behind. Is it insane to consider switching her? Or insane not to?

(FWIW, the director said that she would prefer to switch the other child, but his age makes things complicated. He's the youngest in her current class--she's right in the middle, age-wise--which is already the youngest of the pre-K classes. So the age gap between him and the kids in the other classroom is pretty significant.)

[whatsnextmom]

I'm really surprised he's still there considering this isn't a public school right? Even in our public school preschools, they can ask students to leave if they have recurrent aggression problems.

I'd certainly be moving my kid. Being in class with a child like that changes the whole dynamic of the class. All the kids are on edge and more highly emotional. Even if YOUR child isn't hurt that day, watching other kids getting hurt is almost as damaging. Plus, with all the focus on THIS child, others who have milder agression issues slide by and the class as a whole tends to get more aggressive. No matter how capable, these teachers won't be able to prevent every incident. If they can't ask this child to leave, if the parents aren't putting out any effort, MOVE your DD.

[SubliminalDarkness]

I'm also surprised the child hasn't been removed from the school, ESPECIALLY if the parents don't seem to care to do anything to help the situation.

I would absolutely move my child to a different class.

[kathymuggle]

I would absolutely move my child to another class.

I would strongly consider switching preschools - a nursery school that allows aggression in its classrooms would not have my trust.

[LynnS6]

Nope, not over-reacting at all. This boy seems to be really targeting your child, and switching to another class will help keep her safer.

Do the Pre-K classes share outside time? If they do, then the pre-K teachers all need a lesson on watching that child like a hawk.

[Qbear'smama]

I'd definitely move her, but I would be pissed that the proposed solution is to move my child, rather than the school dealing with him in a way that would not be detrimental to my child or other children. They're catering to the aggressive child but not really addressing the problem, I mean if your child isn't there for him to attack, do they think he'll just stop? I'd be thinking about leaving the preschool, too.

[mtiger]

My daughter was in a similar situation when she was that age. She'd already been in martial arts for a year, so I told her (and her teachers/school admin) that she had every right to protect herself. She was to give him three warnings not to touch her or she'd punch him. After the third - she was to do so. Took the one bloody nose when the kid learned not to push people around.

Not sure I'd advocate this, but it worked very well for my daughter.

[annethcz]

I would definitely move her to a different class. I don't think you're overreacting at all.

[NYCVeg]

FWIW, the director told me that if it came down to us wanting to leave, she would ask the other boy to leave first.

Also, this boy's older brother DID end up kicked out of the school. I'm not sure why this boy hasn't been asked to leave yet, except that I think that his impulse control issues/aggression are much, much less pronounced. When he acts out, it can be extreme, but for most of the time he is a pretty decent kid. The problem is that my dd has borne the brunt of the extreme behavior. I feel like the school is putting in a good faith effort to address the problem and help this kid develop socially. I just don't want dd to be the one who pays the price of his development, yk?

We've inquired at another center, but our options in the area are fairly limited and I think it highly unlikely we'd get a place somewhere else at this late date (there's a supply/demand issue). We moved here last year, and we're moving again in a year, so my instinct is to try to make it work at the school that dd is already at--that's already a lot of transitions for one little person and, as I say, she already knows the kids/teachers in the other room. But I'm glad to hear we're not being crazy helicopter parents.

[spedteacher30]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

I would strongly consider switching preschools - a nursery school that allows aggression in its classrooms would not have my trust.

I agree with this completely. My son has been the aggressive one in his school, and we took him to every specialist the school requested. Everyone said there is nothing wrong with him, but the school actually suggested that we get him identified for special education and placed in the public preschool class for kids with disabilities. I am sure they think we aren't doing enough to support them, but we finally pulled him at the suggestion of the psychologist and pediatrician, and he is doing wonderfully in a setting where hitting and pushing and bullying are not allowed.

He is about to start his third program since June. We never ever thought we would put him through that much turmoil and upheaval, but he has been fine and has requested that we never send him back to the first program. (The second one only had space for the summer or we would have kept him there).

[Grace and Granola]

Since you are moving in a year, I would just chose to move your child to the other class. If you were going to have deal with these people long term, I would suggest putting forth more effort, but if you're happy with the preschool otherwise and it would be hard switching schools, why not just switch classes and be done with it?

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by Grace and Granola

Since you are moving in a year, I would just chose to move your child to the other class. If you were going to have deal with these people long term, I would suggest putting forth more effort, but if you're happy with the preschool otherwise and it would be hard switching schools, why not just switch classes and be done with it?

Well, yes...my question was really about whether switching classes was itself an over-reaction and/or too disruptive for a kid who has/will already move around a lot.

I truly wish we had some other options. Dh and I both work full time, so we can't just pull her out while we search for another place. We were on a million wait lists when we first moved, and this was the only place that had a space. Applications are generally filled out a full year before the start of school, so trying to get a spot somewhere else now is almost impossible--every place nearby has long waiting lists at this point. I've contacted a couple of other good places, but no one has an opening.

All that said, we've been reasonably happy with the school otherwise. It's not ideal, I think, but they've been really great about handling dd's extensive food allergies (another reason why the bite is so concerning to me) and there are a number of other positives.

Right now, I'm feeling kind of sorry for the boy, to be honest. I'm trying to do my best to meet dd's needs, protect her, and help her develop positive social skills--this boy's parents aren't doing the same for him. I don't want dd around the behavior, obviously, but at the same time, I think it's not totally his fault.

[Grace and Granola]

When ds1 was 3 1/2 and in his first year of preschool, he became very fearful and preoccupied with another boy in the class. It turns out this other boy was very immature and had poor impulse control. But my child could not stop talking about this other boy. Every day it's all I heard about. He didn't want to go to school because of this boy, but the teachers said that there wasn't anything substantial going on, just immature play. Well, we needed to do something, so I invited this boy over for a playdate so I could see firsthand what was going on and so my son, hopefully wouldn't be so afraid. After the playdate there was a familiarity that made this boy a little less scary and they became playground friends. This taught me and my son a huge lesson about getting along with people in the world. The teachers suggested ways to avoid the bullying child, but I decided it was better to teach my son to make friends, be kind, and try to get along with him. It worked! And my son went through a huge growth spurt socially after that.

Not sure if that would help your dd, because it's a bit of a different scenario. But there are ways to make things like this a learning experience for your child.

[whatsnextmom]

This taught me and my son a huge lesson about getting along with people in the world.

I have one caution about this in reguards to young children. When teaching this lesson, be sure you aren't inadvertantly teaching your child they are responsible for the other child's actions. When my eldest was little, we were in a playgroup with one pretty aggressive child. Mom was "nice." She did seem to be "trying." We did all the "making friends" stuff. We taught compassion. We advised on how to avoid being a target. How to notice this child's triggers and when he was about to blow. When she was 4, this boy pinned her in a corner and told her he wanted to burn her to death. My DD took complete responsibility and felt it was her fault that she hadn't seen it coming, hadn't avoided it somehow, must have said the wrong thing, ect. I just sobbed the night I realized what I'd taught my 4-year-old DD. At that point, we took a zero tolerance approach to either of my kids getting harrassed physically or emotionally and they've stood stronger ever since. We continue to teach compassion and model ways to handle difficult personalities when there is no choice but to interact. However, unlike adults in the workforce, preschoolers do have the option of not being around children who hurt them on a regular basis. Kids need to learn to deal with different sorts of people but we don't throw them into the deep end to learn to swim. We take small steps, take age appropriate lessons, ect.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

I have one caution about this in reguards to young children. When teaching this lesson, be sure you aren't inadvertantly teaching your child they are responsible for the other child's actions.

We didn't have any conversations that would lead my child to feel responsible for anyone's actions. All I did was say how about we invite M over and get to know him better. My ds is very sensitive, but he didn't object and I feel like it helped him not to run away from hard situations and especially to not judge/hate a person because of their actions.

But I do agree it could be a different situation given the child's temperament and the other kid involved.

[whatsnextmom]

We didn't have any conversations that would lead my child to feel responsible for anyone's actions.

Neither did we! Just the act of continuing to encourage a friendship with an abusive personality was enough for my DD to extrapolate that she needed to control the situation and not the other child. I'm glad this worked for your son. I'm guessing the bully was a pretty mild case. I'm just saying for others to be careful when going too far down this path.

it helped him not to run away from hard situations and especially to not judge/hate a person because of their actions.

This is where we are going to disagree. It's innapropriate to judge someone on the color of their skin, their accent, the clothing they wear, the car they drive, ect. It's absolutely appropriate to judge people based on their actions. We can have compassion. We can give lieniancy for special circumstances. We do have to judge the choices others make in considering them for any type of relationship.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

This is where we are going to disagree. It's innapropriate to judge someone on the color of their skin, their accent, the clothing they wear, the car they drive, ect. It's absolutely appropriate to judge people based on their actions. We can have compassion. We can give lieniancy for special circumstances. We do have to judge the choices others make in considering them for any type of relationship.

I guess we will disagree then

Have you ever heard the expression, "Hate the sin, love the sinner?" And this has nothing to do with religion, but I've heard it said before. I want my kids to learn that people make bad choices, everyone in fact. But just because a person is behaving badly, doesn't make them a bad person. Especially when we're talking about 3 and 4 year olds. I talked to my ds about how this other boy M has a hard time controlling himself, that he doesn't know how to express himself properly yet. But it doesn't make him a bad person. Who knows...maybe my ds made a weird face at M that made M feel intimidated by my son....I just wanted to help the kids to not be on the defensive at the mere sight of each other. Now, if it happens when their 13, it may be a different story.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Grace and Granola

I guess we will disagree then

Have you ever heard the expression, "Hate the sin, love the sinner?" And this has nothing to do with religion, but I've heard it said before. I want my kids to learn that people make bad choices, everyone in fact. But just because a person is behaving badly, doesn't make them a bad person. Especially when we're talking about 3 and 4 year olds. I talked to my ds about how this other boy M has a hard time controlling himself, that he doesn't know how to express himself properly yet. But it doesn't make him a bad person.

I don't think 3 or 4 year olds who hit are bad people, or doomed to become bad people.

None-the-less I would not encourage my children to befriend someone who treated them badly - it is very important to me that my children learn that they do not have to put up with poor behaviour from anyone.

I would feel badly for the 3 year old with aggression - but I would not put my 3 year old in the line of fire, or expect them to befriend them.

[NYCVeg]

Yes, kathymuggle, I agree with you. I feel terrible for this little boy--but I'm not going to sacrifice my dd's safety, her SENSE of safety, or her love of school for him. Getting together with the child outside of the school is not an option--we know that they parents don't care what their son does, that they do nothing to stop the behavior or reinforce what the school does, and they in fact act like they school is bothering them if a teacher lets them know about an incident. I might be able to be around the kid, but there's no way I'm going to make nice with the parents!

I'm once again torn about what to do. We contacted the nursery school at my workplace, and they still don't have a place, although they took our information (again). I'd feel good about moving her there, but the odds of a spot opening up are close to zero. Dd sometimes expresses excitement about moving to the other room, but sometimes seems extremely distressed about it (i.e., about leaving friends). We're not pushing the issue--we've just mentioned it gently once or twice and the school is giving her a couple of hours of playtime in the potential new room each day.

I'm so torn. Part of me really feels that she's being punished for being victimized (although I actually do think she might like the new room better in the long-run--the teacher seems great, there are some nice kids, and the room itself is pretty swanky!). I could insist that the boy be removed from the school to keep her where she is (keeping them together isn't an option, I think), but I also feel profoundly uncomfortable with that. We're going to go back in to talk to the director tomorrow. Ugh. This whole situation has me sick.

[spedteacher30]

I am a little uncomfortable with how much you know about the other family and their reaction to the school, and the school basically telling you, "If you want us to kick the child out, we'll do it." either his behavior is OK at school, or it is not. your feelings about his behavior are not relevant to this. the school has made it clear to you that they are going to continue to tolerate this type of behavior, and are not really doing anything to address it or teach the child appropriate social skills.

Personally, I would look elsewhere. I was really stressed when we thought our only option was the school where our son was being "too aggressive" (we later found out that the school was not only not reporting it to us, but was also doing nothing to support him, while he was the target of multiple bullies who used verbal/emotional aggression instead of the physical he chose. the final straw was when we were told to pick him up early because he hit a child who he later told us threatened to "have my father come to school and kill you" and that she had been repeatedly making these types of threats). But, given the terrible economy, it turns out there were multiple openings and we secured him a spot in a very highly-regarded program.

I am not saying your daughter is "asking" for this treatment, but that the school is doing nothing to either protect her or to teach her to protect herself, and that they are sending a powerful message that physical aggression is tolerated and acceptable at the school as long as other parents don't complain too much.