Are we over-reacting? - Page 2

[Kirsten]

We had a similar situation with my dd2 and a boy in a once a week toddler group we attended. While INFURIATING during that experience, it turned out to be really positive and maturing for both her and me in the long run. As much as I hated it then, I'm not sure I would change it if I could now.

Class of 2 and 3 year olds (2s that turn 3 during the course of the "school" year). 18 or so of these kids, each with an adult (usually mom) for one morning a week. My kids aren't perfect, but like yours OP not physically violent as a rule. One boy in the class would just pummel my kid - without any reason that anyone could tell.

If two kids without a lot of social maturity/group experience/vocabulary both want the same toy and one takes it and the other hits - well that I understand. They are just trying to express their unhappiness over losing the toy and don't have the practice reasoning it out without help/modeling. But that wasn't the case. Hitting, pushing - with no reason.

Both myself and the boy's mom tried to stick to our kids like glue and keep it from happening. Somehow it would - again and again. I was just furious and wanted the other boy kicked out of the class. The teacher wanted all the attention - when something aggressive would happen - to go to the hurt one and ignore the one who hit. Experienced teacher and great program. I tried to follow her plan, and did for over a month. Didn't seem to help a bit. I LOVED the teacher, class, kids, parents. I didn't want to be forced out but wasn't ok with my kid being a punching bag.

So after MONTHS of this, one day this boy walks into our room (there were multiple rooms and a hallway that were all available to use during our class; kids and adults walked in and out of each all the time), went right up to my dd, shoved her to the ground, and KICKED HER IN THE HEAD! Then calmly started to walk away. I freaked. Picked him up (in not the most gentle way; I was super upset), stormed into the hallway, put him down, got down to his eye level and said "DO NOT HIT HER EVER AGAIN!" in a very angry voice. He never touched her again. He did however start beating up a boy in their class.

Fast forward to next year - preschool, 3s class, different city but nearby. Guess who is in her class? Yep, that boy. I was not too happy - 30 preschools in driving distance and he ends up in ours. But surprisingly, he and my dd ended up getting along great. We carpooled to preschool, and they often asked to have playdates after preschool at each other's houses. They were also in the same kindergarten where we never had any problems. I came to be very, very fond of this boy - which surprised me greatly after he'd hurt my kid so many times that the sight of him made her use this primal, growl type noise that I'd never heard a kid make.

I think some kids have aggression issues. I think GD doesn't work in all situations. I think we are clearer with puppies than we are with toddlers. I don't think it is an appropriate parenting plan to belittle or hit kids regardless of situation. But why can't we show a very clear expression of HOW bad that choice was? It led it to stop - against my kid.

Honestly, when we were in the situation, I thought that boy was seriously mentally unwell. I thought "this must be what Ted Bundy was like as a kid". It wasn't your regular "kids will be kids" stuff. It was scary odd. He never seemed agitated or angry at all - just perfectly calm as he kicked her in the head. At 2 1/2 or 3 years old. Freaked me out; I couldn't understand it. Turns out - now that I have known him for over seven years - that he is a VERY smart and charming little boy. I honestly like him. And I think my dd and I both learned a lot about standing up for yourself, trying the nice way but getting super clear that you won't be the victim.

So I guess my vote would be to keep her in the class if someone (you, a teacher, an admin) will put down a strong, hard line and make it crystal clear to that boy that physical violence is DONE. If no one can/will do that, then I'd move her to the other classroom. I am really disappointed that the other parents seem not to be helpful, but I think their child is also in need of help to stop this pattern. If this school is unwilling to make that happen, then maybe getting him out of that program and into another might be best for him too.

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30

I am a little uncomfortable with how much you know about the other family and their reaction to the school, and the school basically telling you, "If you want us to kick the child out, we'll do it." either his behavior is OK at school, or it is not. your feelings about his behavior are not relevant to this. the school has made it clear to you that they are going to continue to tolerate this type of behavior, and are not really doing anything to address it or teach the child appropriate social skills.

I just wanted to clarify a few things. First, a lot of what we know about the other parents comes from our interactions with them and their responses to this and other incidents (ones involving our dd and ones not--we see the parents, and the way they interact with their kids, and the way the kids interact with each other, at birthday parties and the like). But, yes, I think there was some inappropriate sharing at our last meeting.

I also don't think the school is doing "nothing" to address it. From what I gather, the teachers are working very hard with this boy in order to teach him appropriate behavior. I know that when the biting incident happened, both children were taken aside by separate teachers. The boy was spoken to and had to sit out for the rest of their outside playtime (this was reported by dd and the fact that the teachers had discussed the incident with the boy was confirmed by the teachers).

But, yes, I absolutely agree with you that we shouldn't have control over the boy's "fate" at the school, and that they need to make a decision about what's acceptable. My sense (and this is just my sense) is that the school feels that the behavior is unacceptable, but that it is not the only thing that defines this child and they don't quite feel like "giving up" on him.

We're looking. The two other schools that we tried to get into before going with this one don't have spaces. There are some big daycare "chains" in the area, but I would not send dd to one of them. There's a local religious school, but they only have half-time hours, and we need full-time care. We've put out feelers with a couple of moms we know who left our school, but one has her child in a special ed program and the other is at one of the schools that is now full. It's not like we're not exploring other options, but I'm also trying to be very realistic about the odds of us finding another place that works for us (dd's severe food allergies also mean that we need a program that can handle them).

[spedteacher30]

I know the stress. Our son also has bad food allergies. I can't imagine going through what you are going through in a city where you don't have a huge network. We were very lucky to have tons of people who were waiting to support us and help us navigate the other school options.

I am not saying your school is terrible or hopeless. The school our son was in also saw the good in him, and I appreciate that they never gave up on him, but they also, like someone said, never gave him a clear boundary of "that is not OK. We do NOT hit here" and for reasons that aren't entirely clear to us, made him into the scapegoat for a host of climate issues that were present in the school. Our poor son was experiencing such significant anxiety from the lack of boundaries that he was chewing holes into his clothing each day, and was just trying to protect himself from the barrage of meanness he was assaulted with each day. Because they saw the good in him (and he really is a great kid!) they excused the behavior and allowed it to continue. they didn't kick him out, we determined we needed to find him a new place because they weren't able to give him the boundaries he needed.

To anyone but an extremely experienced observer (I am a graduate student in special education and have a decade of experience evaluating children in classroom environments) the school was doing everything right, and the few issues were minor ones that could be easily remedied.

So, my long and rambling point is that right now, you are making your choices from a place of frustration and lack of information and fear about your daughter's food allergies. Get as much information as you can and then make a decision.

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30

So, my long and rambling point is that right now, you are making your choices from a place of frustration and lack of information and fear about your daughter's food allergies. Get as much information as you can and then make a decision.

I AM frustrated. And I want to reiterate that I do not think this is a "bad" kid, but a kid who has some impulse-control problems. Because she's very small, and somewhat sensitive, I suspect dd is an attractive target. At this point it hardly seems to be about the physical aggression issues--everything about how the school is handling this is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. When I talk to the director tomorrow, I want to find out more about what, SPECIFICALLY, is done when a kid acts aggressively.

Slightly OT: The food allergy issue isn't really about fear; it's simply that they're so extensive that some schools actually would have difficulty accommodating her. Back in our old city, for instance, we looked at Montessori schools, but their snack-time practices just weren't safe for her.

[spedteacher30]

I really do get the food allergy issues, I promise. My son was allergic to milk, soy, peanuts, corn, eggs, and beef when he started Montessori. The school was nut-free, and was able to accommodate his other allergies safely enough for us to feel OK there. thankfully, he is not contact allergic to any of his food triggers, just to some unspecified something in the air at school that caused him to swell up until his eyes sealed shut and break out in hives inexplicably one day.

I hope the director is able to give you some good reassurance tomorrow. it sucks to be where you are (and to be where the other family is as well!)

FWIW, we ended up moving him away from a "pre-school" setting and enrolled him instead in a more traditional "daycare" setting. it isn't one of the chains, but rather an independent, non-sectarian center located in a church. I was shocked we got him a spot because it is the "best" center in our city, but they had an opening for him and have been much more responsive, accommodating and open than the preschool ever was. He starts Monday after spending the summer in an second Montessori program.