When you ask/tell someone "I'm going to pray for you" - Page 5

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

ah now we are getting somewhere.




See here's the disconnect for me. (and I am going to use first person but realize these concepts apply generally - it's just easier to word using you and I as an example).
If Christians believe there is only true happiness if one accepts Christian doctrine and you are praying for my happiness then are you not praying for me to convert? I know you are saying its not your primary reason but its that your hoped net effect?

Yes, I stated in a previous post that it would be impossible for me to separate praying for others' happiness and well-being from the context of my beliefs.

If you can acknowledge that it may be possible that others can experience the divine through a different understanding, then it doesn't follow for me that praying for me to convert to believe what you do comes from your best intentions for *me*.

Yes, there is always the possibility that what I believe is wrong. I don't claim to know everything. However, my beliefs would mean nothing if I didn't still believe them even though they might be wrong.--

Because you can't truly know what is best for me in the eyes of your god or mine, your spiritual journey or mine. This is especially true if I am fulfilled in my own spiritual path and living a "good" life by your religious standards. Perhaps the divine energy is at work in my life as it is at work in yours. Are you not called to trust your god as all knowing and all seeing?

The thing is that it would be completely disingenuous for me to disregard what I believe to be the universal truth for all people while praying for others. I could say a general prayer that everyone find their own path to happiness, but that is not what I believe - why would I pray for that?

Which leads me back to the assertion that I think we need to focus on our own path rather than concerning ourselves with the paths of others - whether or not that is based on good intentions, whether or not our prayers are known to others.

I'm off to worship Mother Nature on a night hike with my kids.
Thanks for the conversation.

It sounds to me like you are telling people what they should and should not think, what they should and should not privately pray for, and basically what they should and should not believe. Because to tell a Christian who, out of love and compassion and a belief in one universal truth, prays for the souls of other people (as I frequently pray for all of humanity) that we should not pray for what we believe, you are asking for us to put your beliefs above our own. And is that not exactly what you're asking us not to do?

Which really leaves me because it just doesn't seem very tolerant of other beliefs to wish for this. If you believe in many paths up the mountain, then why is it so terrible for people to actually follow their path and pray for what they believe to be the greatest good?

Like I said before, if someone of another religion was praying for what they believe to be the greatest good for me, I would not be offended even if it implied that they were praying for me to change my beliefs. They are not interfering with my free will - their prayer does not hurt me in the least. It is not offensive to me that they think I'm wrong.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

So are you saying then that Christians (as an example) cannot acknowledge the vailidity, beauty or relevance of any other faith? And that there is only one true interpretation and expression of Christianity?

And again, for clarity as you seem to like to twist my words, I didn't say that we can know nothing of the divine. I said that our knowledge is incomplete and imperfect and that our worldview comes through the limitations of our understanding. To know that there is one truth would require perfect and complete understanding of the divine.

Well, no, it is possible that we could know some things about the Divine without knowing all of them. I am not actually aware of any religious tradition that says we know everything about it - most say explicitly that we don't.

As a point of reference, all the great religious traditions point to One Divine reality, whatever they say about how we can get there.

But just as I am suggesting that there is one path, you seem to be asserting that there are more. How is it that you can know that, if it is not possible to have such knowledge? Is it not just as likely that there is only one, or none? If such knowledge is really impossible, how can you assert anything at all about it? There have been people who thought this way - Diogenes comes to mind - and he found recourse to silence because of it.

And no, I am not saying Christians cannot acknowledge that there is beauty and truth in other religions. Most Christian traditions do. And of course we each have an individual path we take to whatever truths we are lucky enough to discover. As for whether there is only one true interpretation and expression of Christianity. Theoretically, yes, with the proviso that the expression may take more than one form, but not any form. As for whether any one group actually conforms to that, I am undecided. Some seem to more or less than others, I don't know if any do completely.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage

It sounds to me like you are telling people what they should and should not think, what they should and should not privately pray for, and basically what they should and should not believe. Because to tell a Christian who, out of love and compassion and a belief in one universal truth, prays for the souls of other people (as I frequently pray for all of humanity) that we should not pray for what we believe, you are asking for us to put your beliefs above our own. And is that not exactly what you're asking us not to do?

No what I am asking is that you (general you) not put your beliefs about my path above my beliefs about my path. I am asking is that you be tolerant of my beliefs and not pray that I change them. I am not asking you to give up your beliefs. Your religious practises as they pertain to your personal journey have nothing to do with it.

Perhaps if you are part of the dominant religion in your culture you find no offense at someone praying that you change your beliefs to suit their own religious views.

Or perhaps it is because I have someone in my life who does this, not out of love and concern but out of judgement that my personal belief system is lacking that I find it so deeply deeply offensive in the personal context, the situation in the OP or in the abstract.

In anycase, I am not sure we're making any headway towards understanding each other. Thank you for your thoughts.

Karen

[genifer]

I think Im just glad we are living in an age when people have the freedom to pray for what they want and worship what they want. That we arent being threatened with death to convert to any religion. If one doesnt believe in the Christian God, how is one who prays to Him a threat to you? Thats what I dont understand. I mean, you could have been born in an age when your life was genuinely threatened for belonging to a faith that wasnt part of the majority.

I dont mean to be snarky, Im trying to help actually. I just wonder if taking offense at something so simple as a prayer (and I can tell you it is out of love, if the person is the kind of christian I am, it is genuinely out of love) is such a waste of energy on your part?

[CariOfOz]

Wow.. what a thread. I'll say out front, as a pagan mama, that yes it would bug me if a Christian said they were going to pray for me to come to Jesus. I have been Christian and it didn't 'do' anything for me. It's nobody else's place to pray regarding my choice of faith.. I'd politely suggest that they stick to being concerned about their own faith and their families, and leave me out of the equation.

Originally Posted by genifer

I dont mean to be snarky, Im trying to help actually. I just wonder if taking offense at something so simple as a prayer (and I can tell you it is out of love, if the person is the kind of christian I am, it is genuinely out of love) is such a waste of energy on your part?

It's not the prayer that IS the issue for me, it is the devaluation of MY choice of belief system. I no longer live in the US, but the country was founded in part on the idea of freedom of religion, and that means ALL religions. And as a Pagan, I've been on the receiving end of much less than loving behavior from Christians in the past so I can't really accept that most prayers regarding this are out of love.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by genifer

I think Im just glad we are living in an age when people have the freedom to pray for what they want and worship what they want. That we arent being threatened with death to convert to any religion. If one doesnt believe in the Christian God, how is one who prays to Him a threat to you? Thats what I dont understand. I mean, you could have been born in an age when your life was genuinely threatened for belonging to a faith that wasnt part of the majority.

I dont mean to be snarky, Im trying to help actually. I just wonder if taking offense at something so simple as a prayer (and I can tell you it is out of love, if the person is the kind of christian I am, it is genuinely out of love) is such a waste of energy on your part?

To me, that's the same as asking why the prayer isn't a waste of energy on your part. If you believe they are meaningless and ineffectual then why do them, especially when you now know they can be considered offensive?

With all due respect to the notion that the prayer is out of love, many many people have said they find prayers for conversion offensive. And yet the Christian response in this thread has essentially been "Well how you feel about my prayers about YOUR faith path is either irrelevant or none of your business or it is a waste of energy for you to be offended."

How is disregarding someone's feelings about your unwanted action towards something so fundamental to their being a loving action?

How are "loving" prayers of conversion for me any different than the Mormon practise of baptising the dead - which many other Christian churches have denounced.

And to be clear, I am not threatened by your prayers for converstion but I do find them disrespectful.

[outlier]

Originally Posted by EFmom

If it's someone who knows that I'm an atheist, and are praying for my conversion, I'll say something along the lines of, "Thank you. And I'll sacrifice a chicken to Ba'al for you."

I may have to use this sometime...

Another response I love is from a friend's bumper sticker that says something like, "God made me an atheist. Who are you to question His wisdom?"

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

No what I am asking is that you (general you) not put your beliefs about my path above my beliefs about my path. I am asking is that you be tolerant of my beliefs and not pray that I change them. I am not asking you to give up your beliefs.

Well, actually, you are asking me to give up my beliefs. Praying for the souls of all of humanity is very much a part of my beliefs. If my religion said that any one person can come to their own path and it's all right and no one is wrong, then I would have no problem with what you're suggesting. But it explicitly does not say that, and I feel that my obligation is to pray for what God wants as it is taught by my religious tradition.

Your religious practises as they pertain to your personal journey have nothing to do with it.

Again, I disagree. I cannot separate my personal journey from everyone else. It is a requirement of my religion to have love and compassion for my fellow humans, and I simply cannot pray for others outside of the context of my religion. It would require me to no longer believe what my religion teaches to do that.

Perhaps if you are part of the dominant religion in your culture you find no offense at someone praying that you change your beliefs to suit their own religious views.

From age 17 until just before I turned 34, I was pagan. I felt much like you do now. Ironically, it's been since returning to Christianity that I've become more tolerant of other religious views. I know you'll have a hard time believing me when I say that, but it's true - I was extremely anti-Christian and anti any religion which claimed to be the exclusive truth. Now I see that I was doing exactly the same thing that I was so offended by in others.

I don't want to change people's beliefs to suit myself. It doesn't matter what I think. As much as I believe in Christianity, I didn't make it up and I can't claim any credit for it. I want what my religion teaches that God wants. It's not about me.

I would never ask another person to stop practicing their religion, and you essentially are. I ask that God's will be done (just like in the Lord's prayer which pretty much all Christians pray) and that means that all people turn to Him. I'm sorry it offends you, but I hope you realize that you are doing precisely what you are offended by.

[genifer]

To me, that's the same as asking why the prayer isn't a waste of energy on your part. If you believe they are meaningless and ineffectual then why do them, especially when you now know they can be considered offensive?

To me it isnt a waste of time at all. And to be honest, Ive never met a person who when asked if they minded if I prayed for them really ever refuse, and Ive met a lot of athiests. I pray as much for people who are in trouble and their troubles (relief, blessings etc), believers and non, as I do that they do come to know the Lord of all (as I beyond of a shadow of a doubt believe Him to be). If I were to ask someone like you if I could pray for them and they were honest with me about how they felt, saying they find it offensive, I honestly wouldnt pray for them. I dont ask for people to be converted. Its not a conversion Im seeking when I pray for someone. Its sometimes for their present troubles (people seem to find it easy to talk to me about their troubles, perfect strangers seem to be drawn to me for that very reason!). I also do pray that, since they are struggling SO much, in some cases, they do come to know the One who can relieve them of their troubles, and I know He can and is willing.

With all due respect to the notion that the prayer is out of love, many many people have said they find prayers for conversion offensive. And yet the Christian response in this thread has essentially been "Well how you feel about my prayers about YOUR faith path is either irrelevant or none of your business or it is a waste of energy for you to be offended."

How is disregarding someone's feelings about your unwanted action towards something so fundamental to their being a loving action?

To be completely honest, Im perfectly happy to leave someone like you alone. I respect an individual's right to believe what they like. I dont always agree with them but I respect that right, I genuinely do. I was kind of referring to the fact that you really cant stop someone doing what they feel like doing and wasting time being angry and offended isnt going to help you or change them. If it were you and *I* who met up and had the type of conversation mentioned in the op, it would have gone a completely different way, firstly. Second, I wouldnt have said I would pray for you unless I felt it WAS appropriate. I, personally, think I have a good handle on situations like that. I guess Im saying all this to assure you that, as a christian, not all of us would treat you the way the op was treated. I would respect the fact that my beliefs and some of my actions might be offensive and I would actually do what I could to not offend, bc I, personally, find it counter productive. I believe God will draw people to Him, those who, in their hearts have an inclination towards Him, I think those are the ones He calls. Those who really dont want anything to do with Him, I believe He'd like to show them how much He loves them, but even He is willing to leave them alone and I do the same thing.