Just witnessed GP spank niece!

[frogautumn]

Sorry, this is going to be long...
Oh my head is spinning...I know that I'm going to have to say something, but with respect to delicate family dynamics...Please help!

Here's the situation:

MIL has a "drop-in day" on Wednesdays...she's home all day and everyone is free to drop in and visit/drop off the kids so that parents can run errands, do chores, relax, etc. DS gets a chance to see his grandparents and play with his cousins once a week. It's usually a really nice day.

I pull up this morning and my niece (3) is running around in her pajamas. Other nieces (8 & 6) are there, their little brother (baby) is napping inside. DS1 gets out of the car and jumps into a game the older girls are playing. MIL & I chat about the weekend as she takes DS2 from me for a snuggle. FIL grumbles about DN still being in her pajamas and asks me if I can convince her to get her clothes on. I try everything in my fun aunt bag of tricks with no luck, MIL both shrug our shoulders and say it's no big deal...she's having fun...and resume our conversation.

A few minutes later, FIL storms up his chair, lifts her up, and shouts, "You are getting changed this instant!" She of course squirms around and shouts back, "No!" So he smacks her on the butt and she cries. (I am shocked. FIL has always been the grumpy type, but I never would have expected this in a million years.)

MIL softly chides him, "Oh no, Papa, no..." and he shouts back, "Yes! She needs to learn! She has a mind of her own and she needs to listen!" (Which leads me to believe that this has probably happened before--he watches her 2 days a week, 1 day MIL is there as well, 1 day she is not.) MIL hands DS2 back to me, picks up DN and brings her inside. I get up and ask the rest of the kids if they need a drink/snack and we all go inside and leave FIL alone. At this point, I want to say something to MIL, but don't think it would be appropriate in front of the kids.

At this point, FIL comes back inside and demands an apology from the little girl for not listening

Shortly after, we leave. I tell DH about what happened and he agrees that it's a tricky situation, and we discuss (without any definite solution) what I need to say and to whom without getting the entire family in an uproar.

Here's what we agree on:
1. SIL (DN's mom) needs to know. I'm not sure if a smack on the butt is an acceptable form of discipline to her, but at the very least, she needs to be informed so that she can make that call.
2. FIL needs to know that it is NOT EVER OK for him to smack my children.

So how do I proceed? Talk to MIL and trust that she'll handle it? Talk to SIL? Help!

[Arduinna]

How is your dh relationship with his parents?? Is this something where it's better he handles it or you handle it? You saw it, which means there is no way that FIL would be able to try and spin the story. Depending on family dynamics I'd figure out who should do the telling. I wouldn't trust MIL to handle it at all, because she is clearly failing at preventing this type of behavior from him. I'm not sure how you can say it without just being blunt that it's not ok for them to hit your kids under any circumstances.

On the plus side MIL doesn't seem to support FILs ways but she isn't stopping it either maybe it you parents make it clear it will be easier for her to prevent this when she is there. Have you talked to you 3 year old and made it clear that it's not ok for anyone to hit him even an adult?

[lynsage]

If I were SIL I would want to hear what happened directly from the person who witnessed the incident. If you have a good relationship with her, I would just call her- if she's a lot closer to her brother than she is to you, maybe he could call her and give her a little background info to prepare her and then give you the phone so you could tell her exactly what happened.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but MIL clearly can't be trusted to "handle it" because she backed down and put up with what FIL did, even if she did "softly" disagree with him at first.

I would also call FIL and tell him straight out that he is not to hit your children. There's really no delicate way to address it. If he disagrees or gets ignorant AT ALL, I would never leave my kids alone with him again. And even if he does agree, I would talk to the older child as Arduinna suggested and make sure he knows to tell you immediately if anyone ever hits him.

[frogautumn]

DH has a good relationship with his mom (as do I) he has a complicated relationship with his dad, but his dad is a complicated guy (lots of backstory).
I could easily have a serious conversation with MIL. In fact, she would probably prefer it rather than use DH as a middle-man. However, any communication going directly to FIL would probably best be handled by DH...and I wouldn't expect FIL to take it well.

My concern is making sure this information gets to my SIL. I could talk to her myself, but I don't want to go over MIL's head, and I don't want to look like I'm looking to create drama (for all I know, they have had a conversation about what's acceptable discipline). I was thinking about telling MIL something along these lines:
"I just want to make sure that you know we feel that smacking is never an appropriate way to discipline DS. I'm not sure what arrangements you have with [SIL] in regards to disciplining [DN], but I hope that you'll tell [SIL] what happened. I know that, were the situation reversed, I would absolutely want to know."
Framed that way, I know MIL would immediately tell SIL. There is not a deceptive bone in her body.

I will definitely have a talk with my DS about this and about hitting in general. The incident occurred in front of all the kids and they all looked alarmed I'm sure he will need a little help processing this. On the plus side, FIL is never allowed to watch DS alone (not because we ever expected him to hit. Because of health reasons, we don't trust that he's physically able to keep up with him).

[frogautumn]

bolding mine...

Originally Posted by lynsage

If I were SIL I would want to hear what happened directly from the person who witnessed the incident. If you have a good relationship with her, I would just call her- if she's a lot closer to her brother than she is to you, maybe he could call her and give her a little background info to prepare her and then give you the phone so you could tell her exactly what happened.

SIL is DH's brother's wife. Yes, we have a very good relationship. It's a phone call I dread making, but I will do it if it needs to be done.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but MIL clearly can't be trusted to "handle it" because she backed down and put up with what FIL did, even if she did "softly" disagree with him at first.

This hits upon something very deep. While MIL is a devoted and loving mother and grandmother, she has been enabling FIL for many years.

I would also call FIL and tell him straight out that he is not to hit your children. There's really no delicate way to address it. If he disagrees or gets ignorant AT ALL, I would never leave my kids alone with him again. And even if he does agree, I would talk to the older child as Arduinna suggested and make sure he knows to tell you immediately if anyone ever hits him.

[lynsage]

IMO it needs to be handled directly between yourself and SIL. MIL might not have a deceptive bone in her body, as you said, but enablers are notorious for finding "logical" reasons to cover up for their enable-ees. That's what enablers do.

Can you explain what you mean by going over MIL's head by telling SIL what happened? I don't see how MIL is even in the chain of communication here- you witnessed FIL hitting DN and vehemently refusing to accept MIL's opposition of his actions. If she chooses to tell SIL what happened on her own, that's between her and SIL, but letting SIL know what you saw is between you and SIL.

Sure is a crappy situation to be involved in through no fault of your own.

[Arduinna]

Sounds like you have a good plan, I hope the discussions go well.

[meemee]

wait a minute.

does no one see anything wrong with this situation?

there ar FIVE kids there of various ages starting at baby.

with a FIL who is not physically strong enough to watch your son.

OMG that is a disaster in the making. (i did elder care).

perhaps MIL is not saying anything because she knows how much they help you guys out to catch up on errands. plus i am sure love of gkids.

i am assuming FIL is overwhelmed. he probably wants some peace and quiet and is not getting that and objecting to being a free babysitter.

i know because i knew when dd was a toddler and i was a super stressed single mom i really felt like spanking dd but knew better. but that deep anger did rise in me - which ws a warning i needed self care.

i think you guys should take alternate wednesdays and perhaps your SIL should only send the older two.

[AllisonR]

Wait, I don't understand something. You saw your FIL spaking DN, but then you left your 3.5 yo DS at his house, under his care,? Tell me I have misunderstood. Because if spanking is objectionable to you, I don't understand why you would leave your DS there.

[phathui5]

You're not leaving your children there without you, are you?

[gbailey]

Definitely say something to your SIL but I personally would not have left my DC there. If he's spanking a 3 year old for not taking off her pajamas who knows what he'd do if she does something worse in his eyes. Your FIL sounds like a big bully. I would definitely want to know if someone was spanking my child. I think spanking is highly inappropriate and there is something not right about a man spanking a little girl or any other child on her bottom. Your SIL has a right to know.

I'm confused as to why he's demanding an apology from a three year old child. Is he insane?

[frogautumn]

Whoa...I see I need to do some clarifying (though I'm not sure clarifying will put you at ease)...

NO, I did not leave DS there (and I never leave DS#2 there, as he is with me round the clock)! Shortly after the incident, WE left. Yes, I do agree that that is a lot of children to be under the supervision of the grandparents and that is why I stayed the entire time while we had a short visit. Both grandparents were there, but MIL is in charge, so to speak.

During the school year, SIL#1's DD's (8 & 6) are in school. Her baby has only been recently getting care from grandparents. Usually on Wednesdays, it is just SIL#2's DD (3yo) and my 3yo DS1 (and DS is there for 3 hours, tops) under the care of MIL only.

As I said, my children are never, ever left alone with FIL. It is not because he is elderly and physically weak, it is because he is a "functioning" alcoholic who had a blackout incident a few years back that caused him a serious injury. My SIL's rely on him for regular childcare. I have opinions about this, but it is ultimately their decision to make. For some backstory and my frustrations, see this thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1087524
I am open to your input about whether or not you feel it is OK for a child to be around an alcoholic grandparent when they're not drinking.

Regarding "going over my MIL's head:" if I left my child in someone's care, I would expect to hear from the caregiver if there were any issues that arose during the day. MIL saw exactly what I saw. I would have liked to have given her the benefit of the doubt that she would have told SIL. But that leads me to my (disappointing) update...

I spoke to MIL this evening before DH got home from work. She brought up the incident and said how sad she felt over it and how she tried to talk to FIL about it, but he felt completely justified in his actions. She said she told FIL that he needed to tell SIL about it, but he said he wouldn't. I told her that I want to make it crystal clear that that kind of discipline is NOT ok with me and that SIL needs to know about it so that she can make her own decisions.
She just kind of nodded, but didn't say that she was going to tell SIL. Then she said that she was positive that FIL would never do that to my DS because he is never "in charge" of him and it's only because he watches DN regularly that he felt he could behave that way (in other words, MIL was making excuses and enabling some more). So yes, I will be calling SIL.

It gets worse...DH & I were talking about it when he got home. I told him the conversation I had with MIL. He fully supports me talking to SIL. I then told him that I thought he should talk to FIL and make it perfectly clear that his behavior is unacceptable to us. His tune suddenly changed. He said that he imagines this was the first time it happened, that he was probably really sorry about it, and he doesn't see how it would happen again. Now DH is enabling FIL too...

[mamadelbosque]

Well, that sucks. At this point, I'd call SIL and tell her and make crystal clear taht your DS is being left in *MIL* and *NOT* FIL's care, yk?

As for the whole functioning alcoholic... thats my dad. Who we basicly live with (not so much anymore as his dad recently buitl a cabin a 100' away from our house where dad now more-or-less lives...). He's never mean though... and I *think* he's doing one of his semi-regular dry runs where he stops drinking for a while... or maybe he's just drinking beer now (not vodka, as is normal...). Either way though, meh.

Alcohol's just another drug like caffeine, or marijuana, or tylenol or advil or cocaine or whatever. As long as they get up and goto work and are functioning and not mean/nasty/destructive/abusive, whats the big deal? I realize this isn't a common, let alone popular view, but its certainly my view.

[Belia]

Then she said that she was positive that FIL would never do that to my DS because he is never "in charge" of him and it's only because he watches DN regularly that he felt he could behave that way. [/QUOTE]


I don't buy that for one minute. DS is at THEIR home, right? And FIL is present? Then regardless of who is "officially" in charge, I would bet cash money that FIL will act and react to ALL of the kids in HIS home. Plus, it doesn't sound like MIL is strong enough to stand up to him on this issue.

TO give your FIL the benefit of the doubt, he needs to be told STRAIGHT UP that spanking your son is not acceptable. He may be from a generation or philosophy that truly, honestly, does not see any harm in that practice and considers it normal. His reaction to that conversation would determine whether or not I would leave DS there unattended any further.

The fact that everyone is afraid to simply lay out the ground rules to him in a civil conversation is a huge red flag.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by Belia

The fact that everyone is afraid to simply lay out the ground rules to him in a civil conversation is a huge red flag.

This. It's the huge elephant in the room no one will discuss because then someone will be stepping outside their unspoken but firmly placed role.

It is wonderfull OP, because you are crystal clear that everyone else is enabling FIL.

In your shoes, I'd just till SIL and let her choose for herself what she will or will not do. You can not change your MIL, and you can't change your DH either, so for your own piece of mind I'd just let that go. You know what is up, which means you will make wise decisions for your family, which is the most important thing.

FWIW: I know this enabling well. My dad is also a functioning alcoholic. He never hits, spanks, never shouting.... but he can get emotionally abusive when drunk. So DD and DS are allowed to be with my dad. It's wonderful for all of them to have a good relationship. I won't deny him that at all. However, they are never left alone with him, and have only been in a car with him on less than 5 occasions, all of which when he was not drinking. If he had been drinking, we would be walking, taking a taxi or bus.... FWIW, it only took once. 15 years ago we were at a party and IMO he was too drunk to drive home. I brought up the elephant by saying politely but firmly, no I will not drive with you. The response was I am ok... but I was firm, no thanks, mom can drive or I will walk. Mom drove. Now, if he is drinking, I just merely have to say I will drive or walk, and he hands over the keys right away, because, well, not having to discuss the elephant in the room is apparently so much less painful than the alternative.

[gbailey]

Originally Posted by Belia

Then she said that she was positive that FIL would never do that to my DS because he is never "in charge" of him and it's only because he watches DN regularly that he felt he could behave that way.

I don't buy that for one minute. DS is at THEIR home, right? And FIL is present? Then regardless of who is "officially" in charge, I would bet cash money that FIL will act and react to ALL of the kids in HIS home. Plus, it doesn't sound like MIL is strong enough to stand up to him on this issue.

TO give your FIL the benefit of the doubt, he needs to be told STRAIGHT UP that spanking your son is not acceptable. He may be from a generation or philosophy that truly, honestly, does not see any harm in that practice and considers it normal. His reaction to that conversation would determine whether or not I would leave DS there unattended any further.

The fact that everyone is afraid to simply lay out the ground rules to him in a civil conversation is a huge red flag.[/QUOTE]

. Also want to add, because MIL is enabling her husband if he dd spank one of your children, I'm sure she wouldn't tell you. She'd stay silent the same way she is now. I personally would not leave my child to be cared for in the home where an alcoholic resides.

My brother in law is an alcoholic and as much as he's tried to convince his parents and siblings that he's going to meetings, I believe it's just part of his way to manipulate them into standing by him. He's totally full of it and for this reason DH and I don't want him around our child and would never leave her in the care of someone who has them in their home.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by meemee

wait a minute.


i am assuming FIL is overwhelmed. he probably wants some peace and quiet and is not getting that and objecting to being a free babysitter.

By hitting her because she was still in her pjs? no I don't think so. He drew an arbitrary line that meant nothing and just wanted to be obeyed and was mad that he wasn't based on the conversation the OP related.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by frogautumn

It gets worse...DH & I were talking about it when he got home. I told him the conversation I had with MIL. He fully supports me talking to SIL. I then told him that I thought he should talk to FIL and make it perfectly clear that his behavior is unacceptable to us. His tune suddenly changed. He said that he imagines this was the first time it happened, that he was probably really sorry about it, and he doesn't see how it would happen again. Now DH is enabling FIL too...

So he has left the job to you. Well that might be better in the long run, since you don't have the same history of letting FIL get away with stuff like the rest of the family I presume.

[htcamommy]

Before you jump into this how does your SIL feel about spanking? You really might open another can of worms concerning her belief in parenting with this conversation.
I would be ticked off if I got the impression that my SIL was trying to tell me how my child should be disiplined and it might become nasty.
If you don't want your children spanked then all you can do is be firm and clear on that point. If you don't want your children to see other children spanked, well, don't go over there.

[gbailey]

Originally Posted by htcamommy

Before you jump into this how does your SIL feel about spanking? You really might open another can of worms concerning her belief in parenting with this conversation.
I would be ticked off if I got the impression that my SIL was trying to tell me how my child should be disiplined and it might become nasty.
If you don't want your children spanked then all you can do is be firm and clear on that point. If you don't want your children to see other children spanked, well, don't go over there.

I agree with your last part. I do think OP should say something to her sister in law and then let the SIL decide what, if anything she chooses to do. I would want to be made aware of my FIL spanked my daughter and then I would expect the person sharing the info to let me deal with it as I chose.