Spin-off: Kids who don't go to preschool are at a disadvantage? Thoughts?

[Fujiko]

I just read this article on Wired magazine:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...ges-the-brain/
My dh agreed to "homeschool" dd for preschool. (He thinks she's going to go to regular school when she hits K, but I've got other plans, maybe...) But now I'm rethinking it.

It makes sense to me. My 3-year-old dd has problems listening and following directions. Not that she CAN'T (she's quite smart), but she WON'T. I realize this is completely normal for a three-year-old. But I'm wondering if she would listen better for a "teacher" than me, and it would give her some good experience. I'm just afraid when we start doing some more structured activities that she will refuse to cooperate with me for the sole sake of being uncooperative with me.

What do you think of the article? Are kids who don't go to preschool at a disadvantage? Or does this only apply to kids who go to a school building for k-12?

What advice do you have regarding "defiant" pre-schoolers?

[bandgeek]

If you plan to homeschool them the whole time, I don't think it matters. They eventually learn to listen and follow directions....just in their own time. If you skip preschool and send them to K, they may have a small disadvantage for a brief period of time. Because they will have to learn things the other kids already know, like lining up, working in larger groups, ect. But it wouldn't be an issue long, I don't think.

We didn't send DS to preschool, but we may send him to K. We're not sure yet. I'm aware that he needs to work on some things, like self-control. I'm already trying to give him some tools to help him, like holding his hands behind his back and counting to 10 if he feels angry enough to hurt someone. And I explained what "lining up" means. He had no clue. I don't worry about it. He'll be fine.

30 years ago, preschool wasn't nearly as common and kids managed just fine.

[luv2homeschool]

To be honest, that study is dealing with low income families. Low income families have less access to many things, not just preschool. These families are, usually, less educated than others. (not all, as the economy is leaving more people in this category). I have read several books showing that children from low income, inner city families need more interventions due to family life. Chances are both parents work and don't have the time or the money for activities that children need.

If you are providing your child with educational opportunites starting at a young age, your child will see early on that education is important. Museum trips, library trips, trips to the zoo, etc Reading to your child and just giving your child attention.

Also, if these children are coming from a destressed household, wouldn't it be better for them to be away from home as early as possible? I have worked in Title one schools (before I become a SAHM and then a homeschooler) and I had some students that received most of the basic needs at school. Breakfast and lunch, clothes from the clothing closet, extra help with school work, etc. Just simple attention. Some students were at school by 7 am and stayed till 6 pm in before and after school programs that were provided free for low income families. These children actually did better than the children in my room who went home and were babysat by the tv becuase there was no interaction at home.

It seems that these days everyone wants to cart their kids off as soon as possible. I was in a SAHM group that the parents were sending their kids to preschool as early as the preschool would take them. Some were going at 1. I wanted to be a SAHM to be WITH my children! And now we homeschool for some of that same reason!

[SundayCrepes]

The study was of 123 low income African-American children with low IQ scores. Hmmm...sounds more socioeconomic to me than preschool. These are kids who probably didn't have very enriching home environments who were put in a place with stability and no violence for a few hours a day. My guess is that's what made the difference. I am not being racist here. Everything I've heard is that low income AA kids always do poorer than more mainstream advantaged kids. That's the problem with reports of studies like this, it doesn't look at the big picture. It only looked at a very select, disadvantaged few. I wouldn't apply these findings to my kids.

Here's a book with lots of studies and it talks about how they are misinterpreted and used to the harm of schooled kids. It's on how preschool aged kids learn. It's a really good book: http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Never...0341738&sr=8-1

[meetoo]

I can not stand how the Perry Project is always thrown around to promote preschool.

[cappuccinosmom]

Um...it's an issue of discipline (and desire, if you *want* your 3 yo to have that level of "listening" and obedience).

My 3 yo youngest child can and does listen and follow directions.

IMO, this has nothing to do with schooling style and everything to do with parenting goals and expectations, consistentcy of discipline, and the family dynamic. I have met plenty of "schooled" 3 yo's (I taught Sunday school for several years) whose socialization and discipline left a great deal to be desired. Yes, there was the brilliantly advanced little girl, but there were also completely non-verbal children who seemed to be "not quite there" most of the time, and children who were intensely clingy, and children who were rambunctious and incapable of listening to parents or teachers. Those were all children who went to daycare/preschool. Did anyone blame their negative behavior on preschool? No. But how much do you want to bet that when my middle child had trouble adjusting to his Sunday School class between ages 2 and 3 that there were whispers about how he was at a disadvantage because I kept him home.

[lmk1]

I think this summarizes the article "The economists calculate that, for every dollar invested in preschool for at-risk children, society at large reaps somewhere between eight and nine dollars in return."

Unless, your child fits into that category "at-risk", then you cannot use the results of the study to worry about your child. As far as your 3 year old not following directions, perhaps you need to re-examine what directions you're giving her? Some kids need lots of physical activity, and others less. Also, your dd probably has her interests. Does she have a good attention span for the activities that interest her? For example, my ds LOVES Thomas the Tank Engine books, and he can listen to them being read for a really long time...but he's not necessarily interested in a book about a boat (for example). I think if you use the things that your dd likes, she's more likely to co-operate and pay attention...this is how adults learn best too, don't you think? My ds learned all his colors by 2.5 just by us talking about his different matchbox cars: his red car, yellow car, silver car, etc...If I'd tried to teach him his colors by pointing to pictures in a workbook, I'm sure he would've been bored silly. I think the key to all teaching is finding what motivates your child.

[chfriend]

These studies prove over and over that preschool is better than being left with your drunk Aunt Sally.

And it is.

If, however, you've got lots of mud and giggles at home, I think home is nicer.

[elus0814]

I'd have to disagree that kids who do not attend preschool are at a disadvantage or that they will not learn to listen to instructions. My almost 6 year old attended preschool when she was 4 and is not exactly what I would call 'cooperative' when it comes to schoolwork. If she doesn't want to do her schoolwork there is nothing that will make her. It evens out because some days all she wants to do is schoolwork. My 4.5 year old, on the other hand, has never attended preschool and is very cooperative and follows instructions well. He is much less 'defiant' than the older one. I think it's more about personality than time in preschool.

[tankgirl73]

I am not even going to bother reading this article lol!!!

Points have been made already -- the study was about at-risk kids ONLY, and I love the comment that 'preschool is better than drunk Aunt Sally'. Sums it up perfectly. Preschool is better than some homes, but that does NOT mean that preschool provides a UNIVERSAL advantage.

Another point already made -- 40 years ago preschool was rare. We all turned out fine - we figured out how to stand in line SOMEHOW lol. I started school in kindergarten, and even then, when I hit grade 1 only maybe half the class had done kindergarten. For most, grade 1 was still the "first day of school". It's a VERY recent phenomenon for kids to go to school at age 3-5 as a "norm", and I don't think we've seen any overall improvement in kids behaviour or intelligence or respect for authority!!!

In fact, if you read some of Gatto's works about the real reasons for institutional schooling... you realize that the goals of obedience, following directions, standing in lines, etc etc, have NOTHING to do with the development of a well-rounded and healthy individual. It's about creating a subservient and obedient workforce that isn't too interested in challenging authority. But it's the folks who challenge authority who make positive changes!

Besides, if all you want is for your child to be a little better at following directions and you think a third-party teacher would have better luck than mom... well, first of all this can very much be a developmental thing, second it can be a parenting-style thing (unconditional parenting and positive parenting are a couple philosophies that come to mind that encourage -- not so much obedience but cooperation), and third, you don't need to go to SCHOOL to get that experience.

You can get that experience of being in a class with a teacher and 'group rules' by enrolling in a dance class, or a martial arts class, or an art class, or a gymnastics class, or a kindermusik class... all of which are only 1/2 hour or so each week, leaving the rest of their time to actually be free and be children.

Last fall, my daughter was 2.75yo. She wanted to take dance classes. We weren't sure if she was ready for it... the class was for 3-4yo (but since she would turn 3 before the end of the year, she could start), and she had NEVER done a class thing like this. In fact, she'd only rarely even ever had a babysitter. We could get a refund after the first month, so we decided to give it a try.

Well, we had no need to worry. After a couple of weeks of watching a lot (participating too, but sometimes just watching), and sometimes running around with another girl who started running around, she quickly got with the program. In fact, she loved to 'play dance class' at home, where SHE would be the teacher and she would boldly boss us around to stand in a straight line and not sit down when you're supposed to be dancing (I got a great kick out of being the 'bad kid' in her class, poor thing got awfully frustrated with my behaviour lol...)

There were other girls in the class, older girls who WERE IN PRESCHOOL, who did NOT fare so well. Who could not pay attention, who were running around, who were not listening and following instructions.

I honestly think that it's largely developmental. Some kids are ready for organized instruction (whether dance or math) at an earlier age, some not until later. Preschool does not TEACH these skills. The kids going to preschool either have them developmentally, or they don't. Then folks on the outside see the kids who are doing well in preschool and think "oh, preschool taught them that". Argh!! Completely ignoring 1) the kids who are NOT in preschool who have the same skills and 2) the kids who ARE in preschool and do NOT have those skills!

Anyway, I think if your main issue right now is defiance, to do some reading on alternative methods of dealing with it in order to elicit cooperation. A large part of it IMO is modelling. We cooperate with her, she sees that, she's more willing to cooperate with us. She has her moments of defiance of course! And she is quite forcefully independent! But on the whole she is remarkably sensitive, empathic and helpful. Which she did not learn from preschool. She cooperates because 1) she's interested in the activity we're doing or 2) she wants to be helpful for the sake of making other people happy. Not because she's "supposed" to be "obedient". And because 95% of the time we treat her with this kind of respect, the other 5% of the time when I'm in a hurry and I say "JUST DO IT PLEASE!!!" she's much more likely to say "oh, sorry mom, I'll do it"... unless she's having a tantrum of course lol... but that's a temporary thing which she will outgrow.

[pigpokey]

On the basis of that Wired article, what would be better than preschool would be to be sent to a Chinese gymnastics training camp at 4.

Feeling a little mouthy this morning.

The only children who have found to benefit from preschool are lower-socioeconomic. These are kids who are much more likely to not have schedules to contemplate, not have meaningful participation in various activities, and have emotional chaos at home.

[LuxPerpetua]

The comments I would have made in regard to this article have already been said, so I'll just let that stand. I absolutely snarfed in agreement with the drunk Aunt Sally post.

As for cooperation, there is a huge difference developmentally between a 3 yo and a 7 yo (which to me is around the best time to start more structured schooling). My dd is 4.5 and very head-strong. She cooperates most of the time (much more so than at age 3). If you're worried about your child following direction RIGHT NOW, then I would recommend playing "Mother May I," "Following the leader" and "Simon Says" type games and just modelling this behavior yourself. You could also tell or read stories where it is important to listen to your parents or something. We recently enrolled my dd, who had never before been in a group setting, in a gymnastics class and she did fine. She figured out on her own that she needed to get in line, stay with her group, etc. Actually, she's far more attentive to the teachers than her little friend who has grown up in daycare and preschool.

[MrsJewelsRae]

In our town, if you were to take some of the average low income and or welfare families you would find a lot of abuse, neglect and general instability. Not all, but LOTS. I know this because our church works in these families, I taught Sunday School for years to kids from those families, kids who were back and forth from foster care to their drunk/high mom who has a new boyfriend living with her every month. Kids who's mother had 10 kids from many different men, their own father in jail, mommy's new boyfriend smacks them around so they have to go back to foster care till mommy breaks up with the guy. Kids who play in the streets till 11 pm cause their mom or dad is busy doing who knows what. Kids who show up at Sunday School so desperately in need of a bath and wearing smelly clothes that are thread bare in the middle of winter cause mom spends her welfare check on booze and smokes instead of food and clothes for them. These are all real cases I have seen time and again working with these poor kids for over 10 years. CPS steps in for a time, then sends them back. I have wished so much from time to time to take some of them home with me, clean them up and love them as they deserve. That doesn't mean that low income = abuse and neglect, just that is most cases it's what I personally saw. (Oh, and FWIW, our troubled areas are 99% white)

You can't take these kids and put them in a reliable pre school where they get fed every day, where they get supervised, they are away from whatever negative influences they have at home- whether they be the neighbourhood kids, the tv, or even their mom and dad/other family members- of course they're going to flourish. But you can' then make a judgement that therefore pre school is better for all kids.

However, I think chfriend said it best:

These studies prove over and over that preschool is better than being left with your drunk Aunt Sally.

And it is.

If, however, you've got lots of mud and giggles at home, I think home is nicer.

Gotta agree with that 100%!! None of my kids have or will go to preschool, I happen to think it would be a disadvantage to them to put them in preschool when all they really want is to be at home with me. At such a young age, I think kids from healthy families do best at home, and I don't really care what the studies say. Even if I intended to public school, none of mine would go to preschool, I don't buy into it. Before you know it, they'll find reasons why all babies do best in government daycares, because they tend to progress at even rates and have equal opportunities at development- seriously I've seen our own government starting to say these things as a reason why Canada should offer "free" daycare for all.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by chfriend

These studies prove over and over that preschool is better than being left with your drunk Aunt Sally.

And it is.

If, however, you've got lots of mud and giggles at home, I think home is nicer.

I think three is too young for preschool anyways. It should just be play school--painting, drawing, listening to stories, cooking, etc.

I think that if you plan on sending your child to public Kindergarten, then sometime before then, you'll need to make sure that s/he knows letters, numbers, and colors. How to put on his/her own coat and shoes. Ideally how to write their first and last name. Other than that, you're set. All of this can be learned gradually over the next few years... or heck, when a kid is ready, in a matter of a few weeks.

I think the big problem comes if you have a gentle, traditional Kindergarten year and then end up in typical public first grade. Kids are expected to be able to read in 1st grade--as well as write reasonably well, so that could cause problems.

[oceanbaby]

Sent ds1 to a wonderful, fabulous, small, play based, very expensive (paid for by the inlaws) preschool. He liked it well enough. Wish I hadn't sent him. He made some friends and had fun, but there was just no reason for him to be there.

Ds2 never went to preschool, and is way more academically advanced than ds1 was at this age. I think it's more due to their personality (ds1 is more of a physical, sport, active guy and ds2 is more of a bookworm kind of guy), but preschool didn't do anything to advance ds1 along.

I think it's all a lot of baloney. Yes, disadvantaged kids do better if given some attention and resources. But that would hold true if it was given to them at home instead of preschool.

[lmonter]

My oldest is 6yo, and I've gone back and forth for several years whether preschool was important enough to forgo paying for car insurance or to not pay the monthly gas/electric bill. He's never been to preschool, nor has his 4yo brother or 2yo sister (nor his 5.5mo brother).

Not to mention, my older boys are... oh, let's say, active. They inherited that from their daddy (even hubby's teachers 25 years ago had no idea what to do with his energy and wanted to drug him with Ritalin). Of course kids are going to test their boundaries - regardless of where they are. And I do have friends that are all insistent on preschool. Which is absolutely fine and great for them.
My own [albeit strange brand of] thinking is that if my children only behave and act nicely around other people/teachers/authorities and out and about and don't behave for me and hubby at home, well, we've failed as parents to some degree. No matter what religion/culture/whatever you belong to or are, in general, most parents are held responsible for their children. I do have some friends that do have to send their kids off to school for this particular reason (and to get a break from said very high needs kiddo), but mine aren't as challenging and draining in that particular way.

I've had people think I'm exaggerating with how/what my children can do. Until they see them in action/in person. There is no way my 6yo would've been anything but a 'pest' in a Kindergarten classroom this last year. Just, ugh. He listens to me reading aloud by jumping on the couch cushions on the floor, coloring, etc. He remembers every detail which sometimes floors me because he's not just sitting there, rapt, staring at me, but still.

My 6yo's also a bit more obstinate than my 4yo. So structured things so far? Fall flat, exactly like you'd expect. So we do more "fun" things. We're learning measuring/volumes using old washed out prescription bottles and navy beans. I read neat stories out loud (he's been begging me to read more of The Boxcar Children today). He copies my grocery list to take to the store for handwriting practice, etc. I may have the Sonlight schedule on hand to help me out with suggestions, but so far I'm already doing my own thing and just using it as a jumping off point.

I think the disadvantages my 6yo and 4yo have are that they spend much, much more time with their siblings (and not other non-related children), they aren't so great at peeing on a schedule (just when they need to), and aren't so great at standing in line quietly and such. Playdates typically take a little time to put together since we do have some friends that have school/jobs/etc. to juggle, and there aren't really any neighborhood kids to play with here since we live on a main residential street. But we do well I think.