Heavy Metals/toxin test before/after vaccine

[nitetrain]

In three weeks I will be taking my 2month old for pediatrician appointment AND we all know what that means.....

I already expressed my concern about the vaccine schedule at the 1 month appointment..I told her I may choose to wait until the blood brain barrier is fully developed at 6 months and from that point all vaccines seperately..Her response in short, the CDC schedule...This was basically the conversation, except broken down more...

But my conclusion, that she will be strong headed unless I decide to have it her way...Yes, I know find another...But that is not an option at this point...

So I havent decided if and when...Lets say I decided to go forth, but one vaccine at a time...

My question, Is there a Heavy metals/toxin test that can be done before and after each vaccination?? Any suggestions on any specific home kits or blood tests performed at the peditricians office??...How reliable??

Anyone? recommend a "titer" test to see if the first shots have worked for each disease, if neccessary to get boosters..Is that test non-invasive??

Has anyone tried these routes before??

Am I right to assume Insurance does not regularly pay for any of these test??

Seems this may be a safe bet to take one step at a time and be assured of my sons chelation ability...

I would be quick to deny most of all vaccines, but his mother is a RN..So I may have to take some sort of action towards vaccines...

First time post so be kind, I have three weeks to start shifting through all the threads and opinions, so I may be on here alot during that time....

[ma2two]

If your town has a pediatrician, I'm sure it also has at least one family practice doctor. I suggest you contact him/her/them about their policy regarding parental choice about vaccines.

I can't imagine only having one doctor to choose from. Is it because you are in a tiny town, or some other reason?

I don't know a lot about heavy metal/toxin testing, other than it takes a very knowledgeable doctor to interpret them. I also very much doubt the pediatrician would be willing to order such testing. Insurance may pay the out of network rate, after deductible.

Titer tests are blood tests done with a regular blood draw. I don't think they are available for every vaccine.

Here is the CDC's schedule. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...chedule-pr.pdf Would his mother be open to skipping the rotavirus, since it is contaminated with the pig wasting disease virus PCV2? Would she be willing to skip hepatitis B, since newborn babies of non-infected mothers in the U.S. have essentially zero risk of acquiring it? Would she be willing to skip polio, since the last natural case in the U.S. was in 1979? Does the pediatrician carry the Daptacel brand of DTaP? This brand has no mercury, and a lower amount of aluminum, although still too much.
Daptacel package insert: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM103037.pdf
Article about aluminum in vaccines: http://www.mothering.com/health/aluminum-new-thimerosal

[nitetrain]

Originally Posted by ma2two

I can't imagine only having one doctor to choose from. Is it because you are in a tiny town, or some other reason? Small Town

I don't know a lot about heavy metal/toxin testing, other than it takes a very knowledgeable doctor to interpret them. I also very much doubt the pediatrician would be willing to order such testing. You are probably right Insurance may pay the out of network rate, after deductible. Thank You

Titer tests are blood tests done with a regular blood draw. I don't think they are available for every vaccine. Ok, I will search online for the specifics

Here is the CDC's schedule. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...chedule-pr.pdf Yes, I am well aware of that link... Would his mother be open to skipping the rotavirus, since it is contaminated with the pig wasting disease virus PCV2? Yes Would she be willing to skip hepatitis B, since newborn babies of non-infected mothers in the U.S. have essentially zero risk of acquiring it? We already decided to disregard that shot, but we have been asked five times since day one, everyone is persistant, but i am also .. Would she be willing to skip polio, since the last natural case in the U.S. was in 1979? Good fact... Does the pediatrician carry the Daptacel brand of DTaP? This brand has no mercury, and a lower amount of aluminum, although still too much. Good question, Is there no safe options for this vaccine?? Daptacel package insert: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM103037.pdf
Article about aluminum in vaccines: http://www.mothering.com/health/aluminum-new-thimerosalI am positive aluminum is not a good thing...

Thank you for the response

[lauradbg]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

In three weeks I will be taking my 2month old for pediatrician appointment AND we all know what that means.....

I already expressed my concern about the vaccine schedule at the 1 month appointment..I told her I may choose to wait until the blood brain barrier is fully developed at 6 months and from that point all vaccines seperately..Her response in short, the CDC schedule...This was basically the conversation, except broken down more...

But my conclusion, that she will be strong headed unless I decide to have it her way...Yes, I know find another...But that is not an option at this point...

So I havent decided if and when...Lets say I decided to go forth, but one vaccine at a time...

My question, Is there a Heavy metals/toxin test that can be done before and after each vaccination?? Any suggestions on any specific home kits or blood tests performed at the peditricians office??...How reliable??

Anyone? recommend a "titer" test to see if the first shots have worked for each disease, if neccessary to get boosters..Is that test non-invasive??

Has anyone tried these routes before??

Am I right to assume Insurance does not regularly pay for any of these test??

Seems this may be a safe bet to take one step at a time and be assured of my sons chelation ability...

I would be quick to deny most of all vaccines, but his mother is a RN..So I may have to take some sort of action towards vaccines...

First time post so be kind, I have three weeks to start shifting through all the threads and opinions, so I may be on here alot during that time....

I'm sorry I can't answer your questions--they're good ones too! The highlighted sentence really jumped out at me. Are you saying your husband's mother is an RN so even though you would be likely to skip most vaccines, you think you will have to comply to some schedule because of her? I have read over and over on this forum how your medical decisions for your child aren't really anyone else's business. That applies to your parents, his parents and the grocery store clerk.

If you don't want to vaccinate your child, then don't. You don't have to share that information with anyone. Most will assume that you have because it is the norm.

Will his mom ask how your child reacted to getting shots or something? Will the subject come up if you don't bring it up?

Or...

Are you a man and your wife is the RN and she will want vaccines? Or, are you a same sex couple and again your partner is the RN and wants vaccines?

Trying to get rid of all of my biased assumptions here...

[ma2two]

nitetrain wrote, "Good question, Is there no safe options for this vaccine??"

There is no DTaP vaccine with an acceptable amount of aluminum, according to the Dr. Sears article I linked to.

Tripedia http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM101580.pdf has 170 mcg, compared to the the 330 mcg aluminum in Daptacel. But 170 mcg is still too much, plus Tripedia contains 0.3 mcg mercury.

Here are the package inserts for every vaccine licensed in the United States. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm093833.htm

[Iucounu]

Metals are not a reason to avoid vaccines

This covers the Dr. Sears point of view pretty well:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=333

That's right. A scary max dose of vaccine-borne aluminum is far less than that from breast milk. Check out those scores from the formulas! I'd be interested to hear from anyone here who is unable to nurse, yet still thinks aluminum from vaccines is a serious health issue. There's simply no proof.

A number is just a number. It has to be read in context.

[ma2two]

Iucounu, although the words look similar, there's a big difference between ingested and injected aluminum. What is the purpose of your post? Do you seriously think you'll have success convincing the OP that he has nothing to worry about regarding aluminum in vaccines?

[mgg]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

My question, Is there a Heavy metals/toxin test that can be done before and after each vaccination?? Any suggestions on any specific home kits or blood tests performed at the peditricians office??...How reliable??

Herein lies one of the major challenges right now. There is little or no consensus as to the entire heavy metal issue. But even if we put that aside, and hypothetically assert that it is somehow causative (of something). The testing is totally inconsistent. Hair? Blood? Other? There are absolutely no standards and no correlatable levels. So, the "reliable" issue is a big hurdle.

Also, I'm not sure what the before and after tests are really going to tell you. There is certainly no body of data showing what normal variations are. So, without a standard with which to compare, what will the results mean?

[Iucounu]

The fact of the matter is...

... that there is no credible evidence of metal poisoning from vaccines, just as it would be foolish to think that the relatively massive doses of aluminum in the cited formulas aren't absorbed by the body at all.

If there's no documented risk, there's no documented risk.

[ma2two]

Just one devastating illness caused by aluminum in vaccines: macrophagic myofasciitis.

"We conclude that the MMF lesion is secondary to intramuscular injection of aluminium hydroxide-containing vaccines, shows both long-term persistence of aluminium hydroxide and an ongoing local immune reaction, and is detected in patients with systemic symptoms which appeared subsequently to vaccination." http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/...act/124/9/1821

[chaoticzenmom]

Some toxins are unavoidable. I breastfeed and hope that it's the healthiest thing to do. Maybe there are toxins involved, but it's not a choice to eat or not to eat. A baby has to eat and breastmilk is the best.

When it comes to vaccines, there is a choice. You can't just say "well, there are toxins everywhere, so why bother avoiding them." We can avoid many of them. We must breathe air and we must eat. Ingesting those toxins is not a matter of choice and there is no way to avoid them.

OP. I don't think I would bother trying to do metal testing before or after. It seems like it would be an expensive waste of time. Any doctor who would be willing to do it would likely be a doctor who would talk you out of vaccines anyway.

Maybe you should work, instead, to find a doctor that you feel comfortable with. One who you can ask these questions to without feeling condescended. I use a Naturapathic Dr, but I've also had good experiences with nurse practitioners. Have you asked around in your tribe for ideas of who you could use? Call local midwives or chiropractors and ask for their suggestions. It is possible to find someone you really enjoy talking with and who will give you answers that you need.

It just takes a lot of digging. I pay cash for my naturapath even though I have good insurance. It's worth it. We also don't follow the vaccine schedule, so we see her much less often.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

Have you asked around in your tribe for ideas of who you could use?

Since you are new here, nitetrain, you might not know she is referring to this forum: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=76

[nitetrain]

Originally Posted by lauradbg

Will his mom ask how your child reacted to getting shots or something? Will the subject come up if you don't bring it up?

Or...

Are you a man and your wife is the RN and she will want vaccines? Or, are you a same sex couple and again your partner is the RN and wants vaccines?

Trying to get rid of all of my biased assumptions here...

Maybe I should have described my family in more detail..Male/ Arkansas born and raised, My Wife/Female...We have a 4 year old, dont ask about him its much more complicated then vaccines..My wife just gave birth to our second son, which is 5 weeks old, today.....

My wife has been a RN for 8 years...I am worried about her working at a childrens hospital, and what vaccines may be worth looking into, especially when she goes back to work next week???

Originally Posted by ma2two

nitetrain wrote, "Good question, Is there no safe options for this vaccine??"

There is no DTaP vaccine with an acceptable amount of aluminum, according to the Dr. Sears article I linked to.

Tripedia http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM101580.pdf has 170 mcg, compared to the the 330 mcg aluminum in Daptacel. But 170 mcg is still too much, plus Tripedia contains 0.3 mcg mercury.

Here are the package inserts for every vaccine licensed in the United States. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm093833.htm

Thank you

Originally Posted by ma2two

Iucounu, although the words look similar, there's a big difference between ingested and injected aluminum. What is the purpose of your post? Do you seriously think you'll have success convincing the OP that he has nothing to worry about regarding aluminum in vaccines?

Big difference, I believe you are correct...

Originally Posted by mgg

Herein lies one of the major challenges right now. There is little or no consensus as to the entire heavy metal issue. But even if we put that aside, and hypothetically assert that it is somehow causative (of something). The testing is totally inconsistent. Hair? Blood? Other? There are absolutely no standards and no correlatable levels. So, the "reliable" issue is a big hurdle.

Also, I'm not sure what the before and after tests are really going to tell you. There is certainly no body of data showing what normal variations are. So, without a standard with which to compare, what will the results mean?

I thought there was Heavy Metal Testing for Autism, is that not how they decide if chelation is an option or to be continued?.....

Originally Posted by ma2two

Since you are new here, nitetrain, you might not know she is referring to this forum: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=76

Yes I was confused, My great grandmother was a member of a tribe, but I wasnt sure how the OP knew that....Your response makes more sense...Thanks both of you for your response, I will take a look....

Thanks everyone for the response, some quick judgements and strong opinions..But nonetheless much appreciated everyone...Really concerned about my wife going back to work at childrens hospital and which vaccines may be worth noting...

I would assume the wooping could be concern for my younger son..Is there a chance he may contract this before 6 months old?? And do the boosters need to be so close together, can they be seperated by as much as 6 months???

Appreciate all the comments, Such a great network ya'll have going on here..Biased and Unbiased, is the best way to understand and make the best rational decision...

Hib and PCV - is not season, to be determined later...
IPV - Maybe later in life when he is around numerous children
RV and HepB - unacceptable
DTaP - Maybe this would be the most important..But I would like to get only one before 6 months and wait till after 6 months to see if any reaction...

Atleast this is where I stand as of right now....

[Otto]

Originally Posted by ma2two

Just one devastating illness caused by aluminum in vaccines: macrophagic myofasciitis.

"We conclude that the MMF lesion is secondary to intramuscular injection of aluminium hydroxide-containing vaccines, shows both long-term persistence of aluminium hydroxide and an ongoing local immune reaction, and is detected in patients with systemic symptoms which appeared subsequently to vaccination." http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/...act/124/9/1821

Again, respectfully, cherry-picking the medical literature does not really serve to demonstrate much. MMF is an issue very much worthy of investigation, but there's not yet adequate evidence upon which to presume a direct link to demyelinating or otherwise devastating CNS disorders:

Originally Posted by Guis et al. 2002

Conversely, the role of vaccines containing aluminum hydroxide in the pathogenesis of MMF has been recently suggested.... Despite the fact that histologic abnormalities are present only at the site of vaccination, systemic symptoms are generally observed. However, there is a discrepancy between the wide usage of aluminum hydroxide-containing vaccines (especially anti hepatitis B vaccines) and the very limited number of MMF cases reported so far. ... This report suggests that additional factors, perhaps genetic, may influence the occurrence of MMF. Aluminum hydroxyde may trigger unusual muscle inflammatory infiltrates in patients with increased susceptibility to inflammatory disease or decrease macrophages' capacity for aluminum hydroxyde digestion. The nature of the predisposing genetic factor is unknown. HLA-DRB1*01, which was found in both [64-year-old] sisters (identical twins) could be a potential candidate. Thus, our observation suggests that aluminic vaccinations may trigger MMF on the HLA-DRB1*01 genetic background.

Originally Posted by Rivas et al. 2005

Macrophagic myofasciitis is an unusual inflammatory myopathy, which has been almost exclusively reported in French adults with diffuse arthromyalgias and asthenia. ... Although in adults this entity is well defined, less than 15 cases have been reported in children. ... Despite the wide use of vaccines in childhood, macrophagic myofasciitis was rarely observed in children and its characteristic histologic pattern could not be correlated with a distinctive clinical syndrome.

Originally Posted by Park et al. 2005

Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF) is known to be closely associated to vaccination containing aluminium as an adjuvant. Here we describe a case of MMF unrelated to vaccination, and presented as focal tender muscle in a 59-year-old woman. ... Our case suggests that other causes unrelated to vaccination need to be investigated in the pathogenesis of MMF, and MMF could be considered in the differential diagnosis of patients with focal muscle tenderness.

Originally Posted by Lach & Cupler 2008

Macrophagic myofasciitis is a novel, "inflammatory myopathy" described after a variety of vaccinations, almost exclusively in adults. We examined the relevance of histological findings of this myopathy to the clinical presentation in pediatric patients. ... There was no correlation between histological findings of macrophagic myofasciitis in biopsies and the clinical symptoms. We believe that macrophagic myofasciitis represents a localized histological hallmark of previous immunization with the aluminum hydroxide adjuvants contained in vaccines, rather than a primary or distinct inflammatory muscle disease.

Originally Posted by Stenzel et al. 2009

A comprehensive epidemiological follow-up to establish a possible causal association between focal MMF lesions after vaccination, the use of aluminum hydroxide, and systemic clinical symptoms is required—which, as far as we know, has not been undertaken so far.

Amateurs can kick this stuff around all day, but the upshot is still that the matter is simply not settled.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

Hib and PCV - is not season, to be determined later...
IPV - Maybe later in life when he is around numerous children
RV and HepB - unacceptable
DTaP - Maybe this would be the most important..But I would like to get only one before 6 months and wait till after 6 months to see if any reaction...

Atleast this is where I stand as of right now....

Hib isn't very common anymore. So you can benefit from "herd immunity" with that one.

PCV has the problem of serotype replacement. (Other bacteria just take the place; nature abhors a vacuum).

IPV--no natural cases in the U.S. since 1979, even though there have been lots of unvaccinated kids since then socializing with other children. When I say "natural cases" I mean not caused by the live virus vaccine, which was discontinued in the U.S. in 2000.

DTaP--There was a study regarding the old vaccine, DPT, which showed that kids who got the first one at 4 months instead of 2 months had a 50% reduction in risk of asthma. http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0...379-2/abstract With asthma currently at 1 in 10 kids, a 50% reduction is huge. Of course, this is the old whole cell pertussis vaccine, not the current acellular pertussis vaccine, and there was a recent thread where it was argued that parents should not be informed of the study. But if I were a vaccinating parent, I would want to know about it, and I also think you deserve to know about the study and make up your own mind.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by ma2two

Of course, this is the old whole cell pertussis vaccine, not the current acellular pertussis vaccine, and there was a recent thread where it was argued that parents should not be informed of the study. But if I were a vaccinating parent, I would want to know about it, and I also think you deserve to know about the study and make up your own mind.

Here, in case anyone missed it.

[nitetrain]

Originally Posted by ma2two

Hib isn't very common anymore. So you can benefit from "herd immunity" with that one. Maybe I should check how many cases have been reported in a given year at the hospital my wife works at...

PCV has the problem of serotype replacement. (Other bacteria just take the place; nature abhors a vacuum). My understanding (anyone correct me if I am wrong) contracted pneumonia has the possibility of carrying bacterium, the pneumococcus, which can lead to bacteremia, meningitis, also cause otitis media and sinusitis. More importantly Pneumococcal disease is treated primarily with penicillin..

So lets say we suspect my son in the future has pneumonia...Confirmed increased heart rate, lower levels of oxygen, uncontrolled fever, coarse crackle lung sounds...Rush him to the hospital to be tested for Pneumococcal disease and treated with penicillin before the bacteria has a chance to reach the blood stream and the brain...Then if test are positive for Pneumococcal disease, allow immune system to recover then proceed with the vaccine...

Would that be a plausible scenrio??? Basically, the proposed contracted pnemonia can carry this bacteria, and if left unchecked for prolonged periods can lead to more serious consequences?? Or would the onset of the contraction immediately lead to more serious complications then just pnemonia???

DTaP--There was a study regarding the old vaccine, DPT, which showed that kids who got the first one at 4 months instead of 2 months had a 50% reduction in risk of asthma. http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0...379-2/abstract With asthma currently at 1 in 10 kids, a 50% reduction is huge. Of course, this is the old whole cell pertussis vaccine, not the current acellular pertussis vaccine, and there was a recent thread where it was argued that parents should not be informed of the study. But if I were a vaccinating parent, I would want to know about it, and I also think you deserve to know about the study and make up your own mind.

It appears the DTaP will be a tough decision, if and when is the best time to give.....

Originally Posted by Otto

Here, in case anyone missed it.

I will check out the thread, thanks

..

Originally Posted by Iucounu

... that there is no credible evidence of metal poisoning from vaccines, just as it would be foolish to think that the relatively massive doses of aluminum in the cited formulas aren't absorbed by the body at all.

If there's no documented risk, there's no documented risk.

Sorry I am not buying that documented theory...You really think the CDC or FDA would let documents be published and be held accountable for severe consequences if documents proved toxicity of vaccinations or formula..Do you understand how many cases of children would be in court..This country would be brought down to its knees, ripple effect to the world economy...

Thats like saying BP will release documents on how much oil has been spilled if they had any such documents..We have just witnessed a huge corporation and the government lying to the public on many occassions throughout the last 100 days and not revealing the facts when the facts were in their possession...Only forced to present facts when pressed by certain media coverage, by the public and thankfully a few representatives....

I trust NO government or corporation has the best interest of my child..That is my job...

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

It appears the DTaP will be a tough decision, if and when is the best time to give.....

The only reason to give the DTaP would be for the pertussis component, and only if you think the vaccine works (and is less dangerous than pertussis). When my 2 year old got pertussis, not once did I wish I had vaccinated her. I forgot to give you this link. http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-New...-Failures.aspx

Originally Posted by nitetrain

I trust NO government or corporation has the best interest of my child..That is my job...

Exactly. Your child is very fortunate that you think that way.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by nitetrain

I trust NO government or corporation has the best interest of my child..

Your wife, an RN, is the mother of your children and wants them to get vaccinated, right? Do you think that she has the best interests of your child at heart?

In any case, the people who did the initial "studies" showing that autistic kids have more mercury in their system than others have since been discredited (http://www.chicagotribune.com/health...0,242705.story, http://www.chicagotribune.com/health...0,983359.story, http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/art...tocol-part-two) as has their research (http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/19/6/431.abstract). Chelation has valid uses, but as treatment for autism is not one of them. It is a serious procedure with serious side effects, such as: fever, headache, nausea, stomach upset, vomiting, convulsions, bone marrow depression, hypotension, cardiac arrhythmias, respiratory arrest, and hypocalcemia. Other concerns include kidney failure, which can require permanent life-limiting and expensive dialysis, or cause death. In fact, more than a few people have died from it. All for a theory relating to autism that has been repeatedly proved false. And, like a PP pointed out, there is not really a routinely reliable way to measure mercury levels.

The doctors who use chelation therapy for autistic kids generally do this after testing their mercury levels. However, they almost always do this test after using a provoking agent. It goes like this: They want to test whether or not your mercury levels are normal. So they give you a dose of the chelation treatment, which binds to the mercury in your body. (Everyone has mercury in their body) The chelating agent does its job and your body expels higher levels of mercury than before. So they test your urine and, what do you know?! You have elevated levels of mercury!.... based on normal levels from unprovoked patients... after you've been given an agent whose sole purpose is to release higher levels of mercury from your body. Not exactly a reliable test, IMO.

I also wanted to mention that agree with you, a parent cannot rely on any organization or government to look out for the best interests of their children. However, I believe it's naive to label any group as "good" or "bad." They are, after all, made up of individuals. And it's likely that every group has a few people in it who are self-serving and a few people who care about others. That is why I respect the decision of every parent who has studied whether or not to vaccinate. No matter what that decision is. Because they're deciding for themselves, based on the evidence at hand, what is best for their kids.

[nitetrain]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

Your wife, an RN, is the mother of your children and wants them to get vaccinated, right? Do you think that she has the best interests of your child at heart?

Of course she has her opinion, but she also values my opinion.. But it is my job to research and come up with good vs bad..Then info is presented with evidence..Then we make a decision whether evidence is enough to vaccine or not..But I am pretty sure we both have best interest at heart...

She decided on no Heb B vaccine, I agreed..She also understands a young babys immune system is no match for all the vaccines required, atleast from her studys in her profession...not to mention the blood brain barrier is not fully developed until six months..

Find it interesting that our bodys have a central filter system in the liver..But the brain has its own filter system, the blood brain barrier.....

some good info on chelation.. thanks.