Advice needed

[Minniepott]

My son was forcefully retracted as an infant. I took a couple of weeks but eventually all was well again other than the fact that some foreskin remained detached just at the tip, almost as detachment occurs naturally.
When he was 2 (He's almost 6 now) he began to have renal problems (kidney stones), and all hell broke loose!
I can't even count how many times it has happened to him, even with me right there advocating for him.
Ironically when he did need to be catheterized it was the ONE time it was done gently and properly and only to line up his urethra, and not actually retracted at all. Bless her

It always takes him a few days to a few weeks to recover fully from these doctors unnecessary exams, until now. It's been months since the last time, and he still is having issues.

His newest urologist got a hold of him while I was talking to her NP and it was the worst one yet (she almost exposed the whole glands). He screamed and cried and was so scared. Of course the doc and I had words, and at the end of it all she says he has Phimosis and proceeded to tell me how she could help him with it. I told her that if there were anything at all wrong with his penis it was only because medical professionals like her can't keep your hands off of it.

and then after the exam....
I swear, I'm not making this up!

She actually asked me if he was circumcised?!?!?!
(sorry I vented there a bit, but I know you ladies will "get it" when no one else does)
Anyway,
He since then has had pain every time he urinates, and on again off again irritation. We saw a doc today for something completely unrelated, and Eric mistakenly mentioned to her that it hurts when he pees. She needed to check his lymph nodes in his groin area (that's why we were there. All his lymph nodes are swollen )
and I knew to be right there to stop her! I taught my son to say NO and protect his penis as well.
"If you absolutely have to look at his urethra for some reason. The only way you can is if my son pulls it back a little himself! YOU DON'T TOUCH IT!!!"

Then she says he has Phimosis, and needs to get it taken care of and that's why it hurts him when he pees. That's why he's so guarded, and protective of it. She also said "you need to retract it and clean it everyday" and "It should have been able to retract all the way at infancy and that's why I'm worried" I don't THINK she is right.....

But,
Is it possible that all these doctors maybe DID cause him to have a problem now? To me it looks great and perfectly normal (the occasional mild irritation that he gets isn't present right now), and other than pain while urinating everything is O.K.

But *could* something be wrong?

and since he can partially retract it, *should* I have him clean it? I always thought there is nothing to do but just let him play in the shower or tub, and wait till his hitting puberty and nonchalantly say "Hey, if you can pull your foreskin back now, you need to start washing that thing everyday." LOL

But even though I know these doctors go against what I learned before my son was born on how to take care of it, they still have me thinking that something could be wrong by their doing.

Oh and BTW I have had him try lining up his urethra and retracting just enough so the urine doesn't come in contact with his foreskin at all and it makes no difference it still stings when he goes. So there's a chance that the sting has nothing to do with his foreskin at all, with his medical history taken into consideration. And no UTI going on ladies

Is there such thing as true Phimosis in a five year old child? Could something be wrong?
What do you think?

[Ann-Marita]

I am so sorry! I couldn't read and not post.

If doctors did something equivalent to a female child, it would be considered SEXUAL ABUSE! How DARE they treat your son that way!

I'm sure someone with more specific knowledge than me will be along shortly. I don't believe a child can honestly be diagnosed with phimosis, since many do not have a retractable foreskin until puberty.

Your poor son!

You need a foreskin-knowledgable doctor, and NOW. Have you tried posting in the Finding Your Tribe forum for your geographic area?

That doctor doesn't know enough about the intact penis to even RECOGNIZE one?! OMG, you need a new doctor!

I think you have reason to consider a lawsuit for malpractice. The medical "professionals" that have retracted your son have caused HARM! Take notes, get copies of his medical records. You might PM Dave2GA (a poster here who is a lawyer that takes circ-related suits (and probably retraction-related, too).

[Minniepott]

Thanks Ann

I can't seem to find anything about doctors in my area VA
I live in Williamsburg. Perhaps you can help direct me to the proper tribe?

We go to a Children's hospital near here and unfortunately she's the last urologist available to us in this network. I've already had to "fire" all the others for different reasons. This hospital has wonderful specialists that have been so helpful for us, but for some reason their urology and nephrology departments are sub standard and seem to be outdated in their knowledge of pediatric kidney stone disease, and now we have a Pediatric urologist that is treating his kidney stone disease successfully, but knows nothing about how a whole penis works?!

I am willing to pay out of pocket, self refer, fight insurance, whatever I have to do to find one that knows what they are doing and won't hurt my son unnecessarily.

Also,
Is there maybe some sort of article, form, or printable pamphlet that has information for a doctor to read about how a penis works, and how to care for it properly that I could give her to read before his next exam with her? I don't want to take him back, but it's a necessity for his health. Maybe if I educate her, and/or let her know what page I'm on we won't have any issues anymore.

[eepster]

Here's a link to your tribe area forum
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=79

The on going discomfort after the last retraction makes me wonder if she introduced an infection. You could try first an antifungal such as monistat (anything designed for use on vaginal yeast infections.) If that doesn't help you could try an antibiotic cream such as bacatricin. It is important to try treating for yeast first b/c the antibiotic will make a yeast infection worse. Also, if you do treat with an antibiotic, do not use neosporine, it is an irritant on the genitals for many people.

Normally it is recommended to get a culture done at the Dr for suspected infection, but considering your situation I wouldn't let them near enough to his penis to get the culture.

Another thought is, possibly he was almost at the point that he would have naturally started retracting so the foreskin is simultaneously separating and healing and each is slowing the other down.

[Minniepott]

I don't think he has an infection, but if it did..
would oral antibiotics (amoxicyllin) do the trick?

directly after each and every time he has antibiotics and periodically in between we treat him for SIBO (small intestinal bacterial over growth, caused by his IBD) with Flagyl which is a strong antifungel/antibacterial. This is also, of course orally.

Or does the treatment have to be topical if it effects the penis and/or any infections of the skin to have it be effective? Does anyone know? I really hate to take him to a doctor for it! It would have to be so so so so bad before I even took a chance on doing that.

and YEAH! I'm angry enough to take legal action over this! but we already have so much on our plates right now, I don't even want to think about taking it on.

I just hope when he does mature, he doesn't have any problems because of what they have done. What I have technically let them do (guilt guilt guilt), because I wasn't assertive enough, or on guard each and every time.

I think though (after reading and researching) that his penis is doing what it's supposed to do to heal itself, and at the same time keeps getting re injured like you said.

I've got to make sure that's the last time it ever happens!!!! With all the info provided here, and elsewhere on the net. I think I have a good print out to give to doctors before they examine him. That coupled with the skills I gave him to protect himself, he should be safe from here on out.

It's ridiculous that I even have to worry about any of this. Hopefully by the time he has a son doctors will be more knowledgeable as people are starting to re think circumcision and opt out.

[Minniepott]

Oh and thank you!!!! Thanks so much ladies!

[eepster]

Since he's been on oral antibiotics, that leaves him more prone to a yeast infection. It does make a bacterial infection less likely though. Unfortunately without a culture it is very difficult to tell for sure whether there is an infection or not.

Early forcible retraction obviously causes pain and carries risks, but often has no long term consequences. Through out the second half of the 20th century almost every intact boy in english speaking countries was forcibly retracted daily, and most of them grew up without major issues. If he does have issues from the repeated retraction in the future, it should be easily treatable with steroid creams and stretching exercisers. So, don't beat yourself up over this. I know it's really hard not to feel horribly guilty when something bad happens to your baby, but you've done well by resisting the push to circ while having to do so many urologist visits.

[hakunangovi]

For printable pamphlets on the care of an intact penis go to www.nocirc.org . There is plenty of good information there.

I agree with everything "eepster" has posted, and I would doubt that any long term harm has been done, although it is a bit puzzling that he is still experiencing discomfort when he urinates. However the urethra is extremely sensitive and the introduction of a catheter always causes pain and results in stinging with urination for at least several days afterward. Over time with repeated insertions of a catheter it does become les sensitive and seems to harden up to the point where it no longer hurts. I know this from personal experience.

For information on retractability check out www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/normal . Most of our doctors are clueless about intact penii and when a foreskin should be expected to be retractable - the average age is 10. To ease your mind about possible future problems regarding retractability at puberty, check out www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis . There are many solutions that do not entail loss of the foreskin. Also look at www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2490/8/6 . The results of this procedure are amazing.

Good luck, and feel free to pm me if I can help further.

[PlainandTall]

re: asking if he's circumcised... sorry but that Dr. is not an idiot who doesn't even know the difference. Fact is- many circumcised boys do not look circumcised AT ALL... tons of moms complain about it and many many boys are circumcised a second time because "they don't look circumcised" not only don't they look circumcised- but the tip of the skin that's covering their glans- is a circle of SCAR TISSUE from the circumcision... so it's possible for young circumcised boys to wind up having... of all things- *phimosis* that was caused by being circumcised!!

I can't know how knowledgeable that Dr. is... but I certainly would not assume she is a fool for asking that question!

[Crunchy Frog]

I would strongly urge you to contact these guys. http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

There are lots of things on that site that you can download to give to doctors, but they also have a lawyer who can write legal letters to any doctors who have done inappropriate things with your son's penis.

[Minniepott]

Thank you all so much (((hug)))

I've calmed down a bit and reminded myself that although these doctors have hurt him with their "exams" I have NOT ever retracted his foreskin or taken any of their advice, and chances are he will be fine as long as I continue what I'm doing.
I have a plan in place.
I'm giving every doctor information before each and every appointment from here on out. I'm also faxing the NP we saw information, and I'm sending his urologist a letter.

IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN! and I am completely confident in this, for the first time ever, and you helped me get here. thanks again

Here's the letter I will be sending the urologist in case any of you are interested. Be sure to let me know if I left anything important out, or there is something that needs to be edited.

In light of the my son's injury, bad medical advice, false information and bogus diagnoses of phimosis my son received on our last visit with you.* I feel I need to at least try to educate you, and possibly others who happen to read this as well.*

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my son's penis.* If when he starts to mature into an adult and he has any issues at all (and we won't know for sure until then) it will be because of uninformed medical professionals like you, and many many other professionals that we have met throughout his life.* His penis is intact and whole as nature intended.* This does not mean that there is anything wrong.* I realize that circumcision is performed more than not in this country, and because of that, most medical professionals are ignorant to how foreskin works and what it's function is.* They just are not as familiar with penises that are left intact as they are circumcised penises, and I understand this fact.* In no way does this take away from your credibility as a professional in my eyes, and you are by far the best urologist we have met to date and I have the utmost respect for you and the way you practice.*

Most likely the cause of Eric's occasional stinging while urinating, is not because he has normally functioning foreskin, but because of his Hypercalciuria and Hypocituria, combined with lengthy periods of mild to moderate dehydration since infancy that escalates during times of illness and unwellness.* Possibly the fact that he has passed 3 small stones in the past (possibly more), has been painfully catheterized, and has concentrated tiny crystals passing through his urine almost on a daily basis, would all be a better conclusion to come to as to why it sometimes stings when he urinates, rather than "phimosis".
At our last visit with you you unnecessarily retracted my son's foreskin and it took well over a month for his penis to heal from the experience.* The tip of his foreskin eventually cracked and bled, and remained red, irritated, and sore for quite some time.* I'm hoping that no scar tissue will form.* Luckily I know what to do to help him as this has unfortunately happened to him countless times in his short life, and I will not let it happen again.

You as his physician needed to examine my son's penis to check for structural abnormalities, and also because he complained of stinging upon urination, but it could have been done in a less harmful way.* I no longer see the need for you to examine my son's penis other than to look at it's outer surfaces that are already exposed, without manipulation.* We already know it functions properly, and he has no structural abnormalities. There's no reason to look "inside".* If you for some reason feel you need to see his urethral opening, Eric and Eric alone will retract his foreskin enough to see the opening.* Only he knows how far it can be retracted without pain or doing him harm.* If you retract his foreskin again I will be forced to take legal action.

Thank You,



As more parents opt out of the unnecessary procedure that circumcision is, more medical professionals will need to no how to correctly "care" for a boy who is left intact.

The following is information I have put together in hopes to educate, and keep not only my son but other boys unharmed as well.

The Foreskin
Our bodies are covered with skin. The skin on our noses goes to their tips and the skin on our fingers and toes goes to their tips. The penis, too, is covered with skin. The fold of skin that covers and protects the glans (head) of the penis is sometimes called the prepuce, but is more commonly known as the foreskin.
The inside fold of the foreskin is mucous membrane and keeps the surface of the glans soft, moist and sensitive.
The foreskin contains a concentrated number of blood vessels and nerve endings. The frenum which secures the foreskin in its forward position, is continous with the frenar band. This band of specialized tissue encircles the foreskin where the inside and outside folds meet (at the mucocutaneous junction) and is extremely sensitive.
Care
The intact penis of an infant or child needs no special care.
The foreskin should never be pulled back during infancy or young childhood. If the foreskin is prematurely retracted, pain, bleeding, and scarring can result.

During the first few years of life, the foreskin and glans are connected by a common membrane called the synechia (just as the fingernail is attached to the finger). This connective tissue dissolves naturally - a process that should never be hurried.
The foreskin can be retracted when its inside surface separates from the glans and the opening widens with the aid of hormones produced at puberty. This usually happens by age 18. Even if the glans and foreskin separate naturally in infancy, the foreskin still may not be retractable because the opening in an infant's or child's foreskin may be just large enough for the passage of urine and not wide enough to expose the glands.
The white emollient under the child's foreskin is called smegma. Smegma is probably the most misunderstood, most unjustifiably maligned substance in nature. Smegma is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy.
Studies suggest that it is best not to use soap on the glans or inner foreskin.

Retracting and washing a young child or infant's foreskin destroys the beneficial bacterial flora that protect the penis from harmful germs and can lead to irritation and infection. The best way to care for a child's intact penis is to leave it alone. After puberty, males can gently rinse their glans and foreskin with warm water, according to their own self-determined needs.

Timetable for foreskin retraction
The prepuce is normally not retractile at birth. The ventral surface of the foreskin is naturally fused to the glans of the penis. At age 6 years, 80 percent of boys still do not have a fully retractile foreskin. By age 18 years, however, 97 to 99 percent of uncircumcised males have a fully retractile foreskin.

The only person to retract a child's foreskin should be the child himself. Once a boy discovers that his foreskin is retractable, he can easily learn to care for himself.
Answers to common Questions


What causes my son's foreskin to be red?

Sometimes the tip of the foreskin becomes reddened. This indicates the penis is irritated and the foreskin is doing its job of protecting the sensitive glans and urinary meatus (the opening for the passage of urine and semen).
When bacteria in the feces react with urine, they produce ammonia, which burns the skin and causes ammoniacal dermatitis, commonly known as diaper rash.
Common reasons for a reddened foreskin are:

•Too much exposure to soiled diapers
•An inbalance of skin bacteria caused by:
◦-too many bubble baths
◦-swimming in highly clorinated water
◦-soap on the genitals
◦-laundry soap or detergent on clothing
◦-antibiotic therapy (microbial flora can be restored by eating yogurt with live culture.)
•Concentrated urine because the boy is not drinking enough water.
Drinking water, soaking in warm baths, and letting children run around with bare bottoms to air their genitals helps healing.

What is the white lump under my son's foreskin?

The white lump is made up of the cells that once attached the foreskin to the glans. As new cells form on the glans and the foreskin's inside fold, old cells form pockets that eventually work their way to the tip of the foreskin, where they are discharged and can eventually be wiped away. The space they occupied becomes the preputial space between the foreskin and the glans. So, if you see a white lump under the foreskin you know that the separation of the glans is occurring naturally.

Would my son's foreskin need to be retracted if he were catheterized for a urinalysis or medical treatment?
No. A catheter can be inserted when the foreskin is retracted just enough to see the meatus (urinary opening). if the foreskin's opening is too small to retract far enough to see the meatus, a catheter can be inserted through the foreskin's opening and into the meatus "by feel." The foreskin should never be retracted for any reason.

What is phimosis?

The Greek word phimosis means muzzled and is used -- often incorrectly -- to refer to a foreskin that cannot be retracted (for whatever reason). What parents and doctors should know is that almost all babies have non-retractable foreskins, that this is normal, and that the foreskins of most males become retractable by the time they are 18. It is also important to know that many adult males with non-retractable foreskins are perfectly happy with them that way. Adult males with non-retractable foreskins who would rather their foreskins were retractable can easily and safely stretch their foreskin opening until it is large enough to slip comfortably over their glans. A non-retractable foreskin is not, in itself, an indication for circumcision or medical intervention.

Phimosis is often used as a diagnosis when a doctor does not understand that the child's foreskin is supposed to be long, narrow, attached to the glans, and resistant to retraction. Some doctors are prescribing steroid creams for phimosis, but this is unnecessary in children, since the foreskin does not need to be retractable in young boys. The hormones of puberty will do the same thing at the appropriate time that a steroid cream is doing prematurely. In adults who still have a foreskin that is attached to the glans or a foreskin with such a narrow opening that the glans cannot easily pass through it, steroid creams are a conservative therapy. This is if the adult wants a foreskin that fully retracts. Many males don't, preferring a foreskin that remains securely over the glans. It is purely a matter of personal choice, one that only each male can decide for himself.

Why does my son's foreskin "balloon" when he urinates?

Ballooning of the foreskin is considered to be a sign that separation of the foreskin from the underlying glans penis is proceeding normally. It is not a cause for concern. Ballooning is a normal stage of development. Ballooning will stop when the opening of the foreskin enlarges with normal growth and development over a period of time.

What happens if someone retracts my son's foreskin prematurely?

Retracting the foreskin back can cause pain, as well as problems.
Tearing the foreskin from the glans leaves an open wound which can lead to infection.
Raw surfaces touching each other can heal together and form adhesions between the foreskin and the glans.
Small tears in the opening of the foreskin can heal to form non-elastic scar tissue, possibly causing acquired phimosis.
If retracted past the glands, the foreskin can get "stuck" behind the glans (paraphimosis). By squeezing the glans, the foreskin can be brought forward again, without circumcision.
What should I do if my son's foreskin is retracted?
Regardless of your son's age, first explain that you didn't know anyone would do that to him, apologize, and tell him you will do your best to make sure no one ever does that to him again.

If your son's penis is swollen, sitz baths will help relieve the swelling and discomfort.

If it hurts your son to urinate, put him in the bath several times a day so that his urine will be diluted by the bath water, then rinse him off. Do not use soap on his penis.

Even if you have been told to retract your son's foreskin, don't. He has been hurt and traumatized and his penis needs to be left alone to heal.

Watch for infection. If infection is suspected the tip of the foreskin should be swabbed to determine if it's bacterial or fungal, and appropriate treatment applied.

Your son may develop adhesions when his foreskin and glans heal but you might not know whether these have separated by themselves or will need to be separated surgically until he has completed puberty.

No one except your son should manipulate his penis to check for adhesions or to see how far his foreskin will retract. A narrow foreskin deserves the same respect as a tight hymen. Both openings will enlarge with sexual maturity.


How do I teach my son to wash?

When a boy is old enough to bathe himself, he can wash his penis just as he washes any other part of his body.
When a young boy pulls at his foreskin, he usually pulls it outward. This is normal and natural and no cause for concern; he won't hurt himself. One day, he'll pull his foreskin back, and you can discuss retracting, washing, and returning the foreskin to its forward position over the glans. Telling your son about retractablility beforehand will keep him from becoming alarmed the first time his foreskin retracts.
At puberty, you can let him know that with hormonal activity comes new responsibility, including genital hygiene.
In short, leave it alone.



In case you feel it's diagnostically necessary to examine inside the foreskin of your patients even after reading the information I have given you, please change your way of doing it and try this method first.

If foreskin is grasped with both index fingers and thumbs on either side
and pulled upward the true size of the opening is apparent, and if the opening is large enough you can even get a peak at the glands this way all without hurting, scaring, opening up the chance for foreskin infection, or emotionally scaring a child.

(I also added the diagram from this article http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/catzel/)

[Minniepott]

Originally Posted by PlainandTall

re: asking if he's circumcised... sorry but that Dr. is not an idiot who doesn't even know the difference. Fact is- many circumcised boys do not look circumcised AT ALL... tons of moms complain about it and many many boys are circumcised a second time because "they don't look circumcised" not only don't they look circumcised- but the tip of the skin that's covering their glans- is a circle of SCAR TISSUE from the circumcision... so it's possible for young circumcised boys to wind up having... of all things- *phimosis* that was caused by being circumcised!!

I can't know how knowledgeable that Dr. is... but I certainly would not assume she is a fool for asking that question!

I never thought of that! Thank you so much to opening my eyes to this. she may actually see that a lot in her practice. She's a very smart woman, and I have to think that you are right in explaining how she might have been thinking at the time. It makes me feel "whew!"
I'm still sending her the letter, and maybe it will help her understand how important it is to ask the parents BEFORE the exam takes place.

[Minniepott]

I added another paragraph to the letter

I am aware that many circumcised boys do not look circumcised at all and many parents actually complain and want more tissue removed later on. Not only do they not look circumcised, but the tip of the skin that is covering their glands is a circle of scar tissue from the circumcision, and possibly this is what you thought you were diagnosing at the time, as you most likely see this quite often in your practice. Phimosis caused from circumcision. Even though there was clearly no scare tissue observed at the time.
If I am correct, and this was your way of thinking then the diagnoses should have been retracted, and an apology would have certainly been in order as soon as you learned that my son in fact was not circumcised. This may also serve as a reminder to always ask the parent this important question before an exam takes place.

Plain and Tall Thank you for being so smart!!!!

[Anastasiya]

I would not add that part, if it was my letter.

Most urologists have it set in their mind that circumcision is the only way to prevent phimosis, and once a child has been circumcised phimosis can no longer happen (which is true). ADHESIONS, on the other hand, can and do happen and that's what the doctor would have called it if she thought he was circumcised. When you add this part to your letter, it makes the rest of it seem less credible simply because this part is wrong....and I really doubt a urologist would ever even think to diagnose a circumcised boy with phimosis. Hinting that that may have been her thought process makes it sound as though YOU don't even really know what phimosis is. You know?

Also - it's scar tissue, not scare tissue ; just thought I'd point that out so you could correct it. And I'd BOLD and UNDERLINE all the parts in the attachment that mention not allowing the foreskin to be forcefully retracted, just to be sure those catch her eye.

[Minniepott]

You definitely gave me something to think about....
And I will take that paragraph out of my letter.
I understand where the PP was coming from, and completely agree that this indeed can be a complication of circumcision, but it's not fitting of the true definition of phimosis, and after trying to find anything at all medically pertaining to this complication of circumcision, I came up empty handed. I only found one sentence inside an article containing false information.
"Partial circumcision is known to lead to a tight nonretractile prepuce with partial baring of the glans, because of an annular scar"

Plain and tall can you provide a link to accurate information that pertains to this complication? If so
I would love to read it.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya

and once a child has been circumcised phimosis can no longer happen (which is true).

Nope, post circ phimosis can happen.

Scroll down: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...atement05.html

[PlainandTall]

I hate to cite the AAP policy- because I think that they are very dishonest about the numbers here in the complications section (how can they say that overall the complication rate is so low... then list all these possible issues which include things like meatal stenosis... if meatal stenosis affects 9-10% of circumcised boys- how can the overall complication rate of all these issues combined be less than half of one percent??)

...but here is an excerpt from the AAP policy in the circumcision complications section:

"There also are isolated case reports of other complications such as recurrent phimosis, wound separation, concealed penis, unsatisfactory cosmesis because of excess skin, skin bridges, urinary retention, meatitis, meatal stenosis, chordee, inclusion cysts, and retained Plastibell devices.35"

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;103/3/686

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...atement05.html
"Post-circumcision Phimosis

Oddly enough, circumcision, which is touted to prevent phimosis, actually causes phimosis.22,23 When the circumcision scar forms beyond the glans penis, a phimotic ring results, causing phimosis. Blalock et al. (2003) reported an incidence of 2.9 percent in circumcised boys.23 Leich reported that 11 out of 200 required recircumcision to correct post-circumcision phimosis.17."

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/blalock1/

[Minniepott]

LOL
O.K. the paragraph is officially back in after a little bit of editing. LOL

I think I may even add foot notes/resources, and possibly links to my information packet.

Maybe "To learn more go to this website http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/ "

That might be pushing it though


Plain and Tall
At least now the AAP partially has it. Maybe in time they will eventually get it right.

[Anastasiya]

Okay, that's good to know. Thanks for the new knowledge!

[Minniepott]

I know I already thanked everybody, but I just wanted to say thank you again. It really was important to me and my son.
I most likely won't be a regular around here, but it's good to know that I know where to go for accurate information if I ever need it again.

(((hugs))) to all of you
Your advice, knowledge, and conversation were much appreciated.