Curious case of non-vax children and autism.

[BellaClaudia]

Just curious.. since there are tons of "evidence" that there is "NO link of
vaccing and autism" .

by the same token.. are there any statistic or reserach done and finnanced by the antivacc crowd that would for instance show that the chldren who are not vaccianted have xyz.. percentage of autism.

I am only asking because to the date I have not hear or read about ONE case of autism per se in children who had not been vaccinated.
Is this because such a cases are non existing? very rare, rare or is it something nobody is really researching? Or are that few of those cases
that one can hardly came across them?

That could be interesting to find out, my take is that if there would be just no difference in numbers as in.. there would be as many kids non vacced autism affected as their peers who were vaxed then the provaxers would certainly be all over the place feeding us with those numbers.

If there is no such a study maybe it would be something worth of doing?

If there is such a study can someone point me to the results?

There must be a some good-will with sufficient founds organization to do such a seemingly easy testing. Who said that all testing must be either
gov founded and represented to mean something. I am sure that result would bring interesting resluts.

P.S. I am not interested in studies done in different countries where
power politics and inferior democracy practices influence final numbers. I am also not interested in studies showing what happened in some countries after one or some parts of vaccination was stopped or some part of it was removed as the assumption is that the kids were still either partially vaxed prior to this action or post vaccinated with modified vaccines therefore there was still vaccination in some form or shape going on.

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by BellaClaudia

I am only asking because to the date I have not hear or read about ONE case of autism per se in children who had not been vaccinated.

totally anecdotal, but my ds2 has had ZERO vaxes, and shows some slight "autistic-y" tendancies. he has sensory processing issues, he is tactile and vestibular avoidant. he is rigid in what types of clothes he will wear. and he does weird repetitive, self-stimming hand gestures. he obsessively perseverates on certain topics, notices every little detail of every little thing and then talks about it for hours. and he doesnt always fit in socially bc he occasionally has trouble reading nonverbal cues.

he also could probably be dx with OCD. he has severe anxiety. right now, he's being eval'ed for both of those, as well as BPD and schizophrenia.

that said, i can only imagine how much worse he would be if he had been vaxed.

[lotusdebi]

There are a number of children of MDC members who have autism and haven't been vaxed.

[danalyn]

To my understanding, vaccines may exasperate the *symptoms*.....

[lach]

So when do you think that the first case of autism occurred?

[danalyn]

Are you asking me when *I* think the first case of autism occured? Because I have no idea. When was the name "autistic" or "autism" first used? Was it the late 80s or early 90s?

[lach]

Originally Posted by danalyn

Are you asking me when *I* think the first case of autism occured? Because I have no idea. When was the name "autistic" or "autism" first used? Was it the late 80s or early 90s?

No, I was asking OP.

And, no.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by BellaClaudia

I am only asking because to the date I have not hear or read about ONE case of autism per se in children who had not been vaccinated.
Is this because such a cases are non existing? very rare, rare or is it something nobody is really researching? Or are that few of those cases
that one can hardly came across them?

That could be interesting to find out, my take is that if there would be just no difference in numbers as in.. there would be as many kids non vacced autism affected as their peers who were vaxed then the provaxers would certainly be all over the place feeding us with those numbers.

I can't help but wonder how much research you have done to have never seen someone who was autistic and had never been vaccinated. On MDC alone I have seen dozens.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=vaccinated

P.S. The term "autism" was first used in the 1950's or 1960's. It is generally assumed, though, that people fitting that description have been around for centuries.

[dakotablue]

The only thing I have heard is that vaccines may make an autistic child *worse*/ further down the spectrum. That is the study I want to see. What levels/ degrees of autism are found in vax verse nonvax communities.

I know of a family whose first son was vax and is moderately severe and the triples that followed were not. One has just sensory processing that is getting better with age and one other ASP, but not as noticeable as he is getting older. We wonder if they would have worse symptoms if they had been vaxed.

[nia82]

Autism has been around for a while, before vaccines. It's genetic. However from what I have read many kids that are labeled as autistic these days suffer from heavy metal overload (I really forget all the studies since I have not to deal with this personally), like metabolic disorders that disables them of shedding mercury and cadmium and others. Heavy metal overload in their brains manifests like autism, and many kids have been gotten better by chelation and such treatments. I'm no expert by any means, but I have read threads and books of families who have been through this. And they are not crazy people, many of them were very educated, physicians as mothers/fathers. This is my personal opinion, but I think those kids have something very different than classic genetic ASD. And yes, there are unvaccinated kids who suffer, but there are so many toxic materials everywhere - mercury in HFCS, polluted areas, fish, etc...

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

There are a number of children of MDC members who have autism and haven't been vaxed.

Yes, this.

And looking back, my son had autistic tendencies before he was even vaxed. He was one that it was pretty obvious even as a newborn, he wasn't typical. And lo and behold, by 2, he was diagnosed as moderately-severely autistic. His symptoms started before he was vaxed, and he still has never had MMR (which is often implicated in the autism "studies"), yet he's still autistic.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by danalyn

Are you asking me when *I* think the first case of autism occured? Because I have no idea. When was the name "autistic" or "autism" first used? Was it the late 80s or early 90s?

1938...Hans Asperger (of which Asperger's Disorder was named) used the term "autistic psychopath".

There have been several stories of people in the 1700's who had symptoms very similar to what we now know as autism. In 1943, Alan Kanner described "early infantile autism" in 11 children. In the 1960's, it was finally considered a different condition than schizophrenia.

So autism has been around a whole lot longer than vaccines were. It just wasn't called autism a lot until the 60's, and didn't gain widespread recongition until the 80's-90's.

[mgg]

Numerous studies have failed to show a correlation between immunization and autism. Why does it matter who does the study?

Originally Posted by BellaClaudia

by the same token.. are there any statistic or reserach done and finnanced by the antivacc crowd that would for instance show that the chldren who are not vaccianted have xyz.. percentage of autism.

Why does it have to be done by the "antivacc crowd"? If such a study was done by that group, wouldn't that make such a result even more suspect? I mean people criticize studies that are done by pharmaceutical companies as biased (totally baseless, btw, as they all have to meet the standards of an institutional review board) when they show no correlation with autism.

The reality that a lot of people seem to miss is that it does not matter at all WHO funds, develops or executes a study. When determining validity, the source of the study is totally trumped by reproducibility.

It doesn't matter who does the study, or who funds the study. If another person or persons can replicate the study and get the same results, that is a much bigger factor in validation than who did the original study.

[xmasbaby7]

I believe the issue is lot more complicated as many of us do here, so I think it is more interesting to find if any kids with intact immune systems have autism. I define that as an immune system we were evolved to have through natural, vaginal birth without any antibiotics. Few babies get this in this country.

I once posed this question before and it really struck a nerve in some, thinking I was trying to blame the mothers, and that is the furthest from the truth. I feel quite sad that most American babies are leaving hospitals without the benefit of an immune system we perfected over a million years. Even if mothers have the best intentions of hoping for that, the maternity care system will prevent it from happening in all but the rarest exception.

[Ammaarah]

It's an anecdote, not data, but I have a friend with an unvaccinated child who has autism.

[savithny]

Here you go: There was a poll over on Special Needs about this.

Once you have read it, you will have heard about a bunch of unvaccinated children with autism!!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=923707

[katelove]

Originally Posted by mgg

Numerous studies have failed to show a correlation between immunization and autism. Why does it matter who does the study?



Why does it have to be done by the "antivacc crowd"? If such a study was done by that group, wouldn't that make such a result even more suspect? I mean people criticize studies that are done by pharmaceutical companies as biased (totally baseless, btw, as they all have to meet the standards of an institutional review board) when they show no correlation with autism.

The reality that a lot of people seem to miss is that it does not matter at all WHO funds, develops or executes a study. When determining validity, the source of the study is totally trumped by reproducibility.

It doesn't matter who does the study, or who funds the study. If another person or persons can replicate the study and get the same results, that is a much bigger factor in validation than who did the original study.

In a perfect world maybe but the reality is that there is plenty of bias in research. Yes, reproduceability should eliminate bias but it depends who does the reproduction. And there isn't limitless funding for research either so plenty of studies don't get reproduced but, once they're out there, they get quoted and used to support practice and pretty soon whatever it is becomes standard practice and no-one notices (or no-one chooses to notice) that it's all based on one paper.

I am not a conspiracy theorist at all but I don't believe for a single second that there is no bias in research.

[GoBecGo]

I have a degree in Celtic Studies, and once read a mediaeval Irish law transcript which classified "types of idiot or fool". The use of the words idiot and fool aren't PC nowadays but in those days they were a classification rather than an insult. There were "idiots with lumps under the neck" (down's syndrome, also sometimes called "blue child idiots" probably because of heart problems making them appear cyanotic much of the time), "silent idiots" (mute, and probably deaf), "sightless fools" (blind) and one i remember because it is relevant to me, "bird idiots" - so called because of the flapping motions they made with their hands and arms. There was also a story in an annal about a bird idiot who cared for the sheep and could tell at a glance if any of the town's sheep were missing from the hill.

From my own perspective there have been autistic people in every generation of my family, including my own, since at LEAST 1830 (we have memoirs stretching back that far, many doctors in the family, and thus very detailed descriptions of those who were designated "mad" "wrong" or "insane" all of which indicate autism of some sort or another). My own father has aspergers. None of them were vaccinated. In fact the mildest autistic traits are in the generation which was vaccinated, my own, with only one cousin who is probably aspie, though the rest of us all have traits.

[soso-lynn]

Maybe I got autism from the residual vaccine toxins in my autistic father's sperm. Perhaps vaccines are so toxic that the effects can still be seen in my 2nd generation unvaccinated child.

Seriously, this whole autism/vaccine thing is getting old. There are so many other reasons not to vaccinate.

Also, people born through natural birth in an unpolluted area still can be autistic if their parents are.

[soso-lynn]

Maybe I got autism from the residual vaccine toxins in my autistic father's sperm. Perhaps vaccines are so toxic that the effects can still be seen in my 2nd generation unvaccinated child.

Seriously, this whole autism/vaccine thing is getting old. There are so many other reasons not to vaccinate.

Also, people born through natural birth in an unpolluted area still can be autistic if their parents are.