Thermal shift w/o O?? *Now w/ BETA*

[babygrey]

Every month, I swear I'm not going to have chart drama. Yeah. Right.

Here she is, in all her drama filled glory: my chart

So, can someone suggest wth happened this month?

We'd kinda bagged this month as a wash. I got a terrible sinus/ear infection and was taking decongestants CD14-18.
But, then, I got fertile CM and my CP was H&S. I never got a +opk. I went camping CD21 (prospective O date) and didn't take my opks. Chalked the lack of a + up to missing my surge, esp after I had CM dry up and what sure looks like a thermal shift to me (no?? )

I stopped opks bc my thermal shift looked convincing and I've been working @ a hiking daycamp and, well, peeing on sticks in bushes in front of kidlets just.won't.work.

Was upset I didn't get a +opk, bc we were going to do IUI, but, regardless, it looked like O and that made me happy. We had fantastic timing.

CHs said O date CD21...doesn't quite fit w/ my dry up, but, I figure maybe I had a slow rise?

I tell DH he's 'off duty' and we relaxed on the BD'ing, get over the no-IUI, and get happy w/ the idea of saving our $ for injectables in the next few months.

Buuutt.. .then, today, I got the hugest amount of EWCM I've had in YEARS. I mean, spin inches long. I truly haven't had that in years. I take an opk. then another. BLARING Positive. Gah. (**I left that out of the chart so you can see the CH's. It was today, CD26**)

So, needless to say, I turn on the charm and rush DH to BD'ing.

Seriously, tho, oh expert wise ones, how did this happen?

Specifically, how could I have convincing signs combined with what looks like a convincing thermal shift and be pre-O?!?! I don't want to lose faith in my chart, but I'm starting to think it is giving me a false sense of security...

If I had posted a "did I O" post today before the opk, would you have said that shift was convincing despite not *quite* fitting w/ my CM/CP pattern?

karmab, you got any studies to say that the twice a cycle O can be a week apart?

okay. thanks for letting me rant. why.can't.this.be.easy.

[HulaJenn]

Tough one. Temps are supposed to trump any other secondary signs and i def see the thermal shift. i know it is possible to get fertile CM in your LP as well. Did you take another OPK to confirm -maybe it was just a couple fluke tests? maybe like you said it is a an O twice in 1 month (although I know typically that only happens within 24 hours of each other.) The only other possible scenario is something affecting the accuracy of your temps and therefore your coverline?
I hope it paints a clearer pic soon! but remember, a pos OPK doesn't mean you are ovulating right.now - but within the next 48 hours! So get thee to BDing just in case!

[karmab]

baby, girlfriend, you know i've got somethin for ya! http://www.newscientist.com/article/...e-a-month.html
note it does say two separate waves in one cycle could each release eggs...

that is a very convincing thermal shift, isnt it. and it's too early for an opk to be pos as an hpt. i just talked to someone yesterday who has a nearly identical chart to yours. she went to her ob/gyn for an u/s endo check, 6 dpo. the tech said, my, look at that! there's a follie there just about to pop- go home and bd right now! i asked her if she thought it could be a sealed over corpus luteum and she said the tech was certain it was a follie and when she reveiwed pics with her doc, she was convinced too. huh. really, you just never know. if you've got fertile cm and a pos opk, thermal shift or not, do the dance, babygirl!!!! i hope it works!

[texaspeach]

Originally Posted by karmab

baby, girlfriend, you know i've got somethin for ya! http://www.newscientist.com/article/...e-a-month.html
note it does say two separate waves in one cycle could each release eggs...

actually, that is a case of bad interpretation of a medical study. we used to get this cited as a reason why nfp doesn't work. the study actually says that follicular development happens in waves, not that women release egg twice. Dr. Baerwald actually cleared up this confusion here.

anyhow baby grey, it is possible you had a false thermal shift, using fam rules your temp hasn't confirmed ovulation. your coverline would need to be .2 above the highest of your preshift 6, and your temp has to stay above the cl for 3 days - if your temp falls you must start your temp count over. I know you're ttc with cm problems so I'd take your recent discovery as a very good sign! good luck :

[karmab]

hate to see that! but i understand about the media, completely. in any case, the more i learn about ttc, the more i realize we really dont know everything, even when we think some things are for certain.

[kriket]

I blame it on the trips. Camping, and sleeping not in your bed can really screw up your sleep cycle, and thus, your temps.

I know when I don't get a 'normal' nights sleep that mornings temp is off. I hate going to pee too close to wake up time because I know the morning temp will be too high!

[GolfAddict]

Could you have geared up to O but something happened and now it is delayed?

I tell DH he's 'off duty' and we relaxed on the BD'ing

REALLY?!?!? Holy cow!!! I wish my DH would go that many days in a row. I think planning BD and less spontanity makes it a little difficult to get him in the mood.

I agree with other PP's...if you got the CM go BD!!!

[Rainy229]

I'm gonna second Texaspeach on this one; your 6 pre-spike/shift temps put your coverline waytooclose to the post-spike/shift temps. You said you were roughin' it when you thought you were gonna O... perhaps that's enough stress on your cycle for it to back off and try again several days later

My vote (a rather hopeful one) is that you're going to O soon, or just have (based on the fact that you didn't put in the most recent info.

Good luck!!!!

Rainy

[contactmaya]

I havent read the actual study on multiple 'ovulations' cited here, but followed both links provided (thanks pp's)

They said that most of the waves were anovulatory, but what i am trying to figure out is, how did they verify that? Did they verify it via ultrasound? (in other words, were there at the exact moment ovulation did or didnt take place-impossible) Did they do a day 7 progesterone draw? (difficult if the timing of ovulation isnt already the question, or if there are multiple 'gearing up' to ovulate) Did they use temperatures? (obviously not a reliable method either, otherwise, OP wouldnt be in this boat)

I would love to know how they knew for sure that these 'waves' were anovulatory, and which one's were ovulatory...

:-)

[HulaJenn]

I am still stalking your chart and can't believe you have a 4th day of pos OPKs??? Something is either up with the batch of tests you have or you are picking up HCG and are preggo? Try taking an HPT? I know it seems not possible because usually you have to be quite a bit further along to test pos on an OPK as an HPT right? But I think 4 days of an LH surge isn't right.

[babygrey]

Thanks, mamas for all your help.
If I'd kept watching for a few more days, I would've realized that the "shift" I was seeing wasn't O, cuz my temps are back down now. I was only camping for one night, so I agree that might have messed my temp up that one time, but not the others... hm.

Texaspeach, thanks for the reminder about FAM. I'm a novice charter who's only charted to ttc, and I don't O much, so that's good to remember. FF is kind of a crutch, I think. (I mean, it has given me CHs on months that really aren't convincing)

Karma- yk I love you no matter what kind of hope you give me.

I haven't had a chance to check out that other link yet. Will do.

Originally Posted by HulaJenn

I am still stalking your chart and can't believe you have a 4th day of pos OPKs??? Something is either up with the batch of tests you have or you are picking up HCG and are preggo? Try taking an HPT? I know it seems not possible because usually you have to be quite a bit further along to test pos on an OPK as an HPT right? But I think 4 days of an LH surge isn't right.

So, they're real +s. I'm testing 3x/day using a combo of $trees and cbe digis. The $trees have very, very dark test lines and the cbe digis have smiles. Per my RE, the cbe digis have a very low false + rate...
I have no idea what to think... I have EWCM, so that leads me to believe I'm not pg, which is why I haven't taken an hpt yet. I think, if still +, then I'll hpt tomorrow.
Plus, I, too, thought you had to be pretty pg to get a +opk?

Thx for chart stalking

[HulaJenn]

well, I guess if you picked up the VERY beginning of the surge and then caught the very end, maybe 4 days isn't unreasonable? Sorry, I didn't mean to imply something was wrong...I just haven't seen it before , but some other ladies here maybe have a great explanation. i hope you are BDing like crazy, cuz maybe it means a super-human O?

[babygrey]

Originally Posted by HulaJenn

well, I guess if you picked up the VERY beginning of the surge and then caught the very end, maybe 4 days isn't unreasonable? Sorry, I didn't mean to imply something was wrong...I just haven't seen it before , but some other ladies here maybe have a great explanation. i hope you are BDing like crazy, cuz maybe it means a super-human O?

oh, no worries, I totally didn't think you implied something was wrong. I had already gone there in my head, anyway you just made it okay for me to ask outloud

and, sigh, TBH, we're both so worn of BDing. We going to try tonight, but last night was a HUGE effort for dh and so we might be done for the cycle. That's part of why I'm stressed about this, bc we had declared our BD-a-thon over for the month last week...

[karmab]

baby girl, see what tomorrow brings. hopefully a nice temp jump. and re: your pooped out dh, every other day should be very adequate. he really has been a trooper this cycle, hasnt he!

[babygrey]

update!!!

(this is a cut/paste update from my other post- sorry if you're reading it twice.)

OMFG, mamas.
HulaJen&Karmab had both brought up the possibility of opk as hpt, but, honestly, I thought I was about 5dpo @ the first + opk...
except, then, as I was standing up from gardening tonight, I literally passed out. That has NEVER happened to me anymore.

So. I tested.

AAAAHH!!! You guys, that's my B-F-P!!

I'm literally in shock. I almost passed out again I was literally talking to RE today about starting injectables next month and how this month was a waste cuz I was sick...

Now, I want you chart experts to help me, please, please- WHEN do you think this happened?

I tested all the way until 18dpo last cycle. I was on Progesterone, and stopped it and bled two days later like normal. I can't imagine a pg could sustain through a progesterone drop like that... then I had a normal AF.

But it sure doesn't look like I O'd this cycle. Plus, if I did, by CM, I would have gotten the first +opk at 5dpo.

and look how dark that FRER is!! That's with late evening, dilute pee and the line still came up instantly.

But, did I take Clomid thru a pregnancy?? *gulp*

EEE!!

Thank you all SoSoSo much for all your help. You ladies have helped me keep my sanity through all this.

[HulaJenn]

!!
I am so happy for you!
as for when it happened....what if....you O'd on cd18 and just missed the LH surge with the OPK and the temp on cd21 is a clear circle so if you discard it...does FF change your CHs? and so you are actually 11dpo?
otherwise, i couldn't see such a dark BFP unless like you said, AF wasn't really AF. You did have a 19 day LP last cycle. technically 18dpo is pregnant, so I may lean towards the latter scenario and you just had some breakthrough bleeding that resembled AF .....WOW. Either way, celebration is def in order (with virgin drinks of course! )

[babygrey]

Originally Posted by HulaJenn

!!
I am so happy for you!
as for when it happened....what if....you O'd on cd18 and just missed the LH surge with the OPK and the temp on cd21 is a clear circle so if you discard it...does FF change your CHs? and so you are actually 11dpo?
otherwise, i couldn't see such a dark BFP unless like you said, AF wasn't really AF. You did have a 19 day LP last cycle. technically 18dpo is pregnant, so I may lean towards the latter scenario and you just had some breakthrough bleeding that resembled AF .....WOW. Either way, celebration is def in order (with virgin drinks of course! )

Thanks!
okay, you're a smart cookie. Yes, if I discard CD21 (and delete the +opks), I get DCHs on CD18. Except, two things- the temp on CD21 is a clear circle bc it was 20 mins earlier than my normal temp time window. I'm not sure if that's enough to really make it inaccurate, kwim? The second being, if I O'd on CD18, that would mean I had my first + opk as hpt at 8dpo. I always thought you had to be waaaay further to get + opk as hpt... I mean, I've been stalking the FF photo gallery and the earliest I can see a + opk as hpt is 12dpo... most of them are even further out. Hm.
Regardless, I'm with you- WOW.

Thanks for your thoughts, mama. I'm super curious about this, and, honestly, I hope it was CD18 and not last cycle, bc I hate to think I took Clomid while I was pg...

[kalamos23]

Well, you could be metabolizing HCG really fast this time into your pee - my HCG goes up really quickly (my betas have gone from 46 to 564 in 4 days with a singleton) and if you possibly had twins baking in there with the being on Clomid... well, let's just say, it would not be out of the question to have high HCG. I'm leaning toward O at CD17 or 18 myself.

[kalamos23]

To be frank, and help you feel better, the tests aren't dark enough to be from last cycle in my opinion. I'm an obsessive tester even after I have gotten a BFP and your $ tree test is about what mine looked like at the 2000 miu HCG level (at least the way I metabolize it - YYMV). I think it would be much much darker if you were 6 or 7 weeks pregnant, kwim? I'm betting on twins or high HCG

[babygrey]

Originally Posted by kalamos23

To be frank, and help you feel better, the tests aren't dark enough to be from last cycle in my opinion. I'm an obsessive tester even after I have gotten a BFP and your $ tree test is about what mine looked like at the 2000 miu HCG level (at least the way I metabolize it - YYMV). I think it would be much much darker if you were 6 or 7 weeks pregnant, kwim? I'm betting on twins or high HCG

OMG, twins! Why hadn't I thought of that??
That's good to hear about the tests- I really don't want to go thru a pg wondering 'what if' on the meds. Do you think that holds that they would be darker if I was 6-ish weeks pg, even tho my bfp was late evening, almost clear urine? I think part of the reason I'm worried is that, w/ DD, I had a much fainter bfp with FMU @13dpo. But, you're right on the metabolism speed...
Guess I'll see what tomorrow's test looks like and then call and explain why I need a beta